Rural King Ar15s

[MachIVshooter]

he then claims its more powerful than that AK47 (pointing at one on the shelf) again because it's "higher velocity".Told him of course "velocity" is not everything

He may be a dunce and a Fudd, and it may have been inadvertant, but where armor penetration is concerned, he was right; the 5.56mm round is absolutely more effective than the 7.62x39mm, owing to it's velocity. Check out some of the tests that have been done against AR plate, especially those where a 20"+ barrel was used with 5.56mm, getting it up and over the 3,200 FPS mark. With armor, velocity is king. I can punch through AR plate that easily stops a 150 gr. FMJ from a .308 doing 2,700-2,800 FPS with a 50 gr. HP from my .220 swift clocking over 4,000 FPS.

I don't recall which Youtuber did the test, but AR500 plate that stopped a .338 Lapua was pierced by M193 fired from a 20" AR.

On the flip side of it, the heavier and slower .30 slug pill will keep plowing through softer things that cause the screamin' little .224" pill to disintegrate.

A heavy .223 FMJ or M855 will certainly over penetrate and not be good indoors. I have no clue how many layers of sheet rock any will go through but an educated guess tells me the vmax style bullets will not make it through an intruder and 2 layers of sheet rock.

Incorrect. Test upon test demonstrates that both M193 and M855 are less likely to exit a residential structure than service caliber handgun rounds. The small, light, high velocity bullets upset more easily and have less momentum.

 

[buck460XVR]

My point was not about who is the beteer "gun guy"

....kept saying their to dangerous, to high of a velocity.

....his daughter whos a cop and told him so. I flat out said shes wrong, he then claims its more powerful than that AK47

As you have so clearly shown in the above examples, your knowledge of the language arts, is about on par with the guy at the gun counters knowledge of AR platform .223s. Does that automatically mean you will be the first in line to happily give up all of our 1st Amendment rights? There's a ton of ardent gun owners out there that do not own AR platforms or high capacity mags. They are still NRA members and wholly support the rights of others to. You don't know the guy from Adam, only that he does not hold your passion for AR platforms. His daughter being a cop is a prime reason why and her safety is probably a big concern. No where did you say he wanted them banned, only an attempt to display here, your superior knowledge of firearms over this one(or two) people. Kinda the just of all of these "dumb guy at the gun counter threads".

Over the years, I have many times thought.....''I could not let that go, had to say something.''. Realized after a while that sometimes it's better to bite my lip and walk away, as to go and lower myself to another loud mouth boaster's level.

.....just sayin'.

 

[KYregular]

He may be a dunce and a Fudd, and it may have been inadvertant, but where armor penetration is concerned, he was right; the 5.56mm round is absolutely more effective than the 7.62x39mm, owing to it's velocity. Check out some of the tests that have been done against AR plate, especially those where a 20"+ barrel was used with 5.56mm, getting it up and over the 3,200 FPS mark. With armor, velocity is king. I can punch through AR plate that easily stops a 150 gr. FMJ from a .308 doing 2,700-2,800 FPS with a 50 gr. HP from my .220 swift clocking over 4,000 FPS.

I don't recall which Youtuber did the test, but AR500 plate that stopped a .338 Lapua was pierced by M193 fired from a 20" AR.

On the flip side of it, the heavier and slower .30 slug pill will keep plowing through softer things that cause the screamin' little .224" pill to disintegrate.



Incorrect. Test upon test demonstrates that both M193 and M855 are less likely to exit a residential structure than service caliber handgun rounds. The small, light, high velocity bullets upset more easily and have less momentum.

More or less going thru my own tests, I fired M855 at half inch steel from an 18" barrel and it cratered it, then shot my 30-06 at it with soft points (Corelokt) and punced right thru.

 

[KYregular]

As you have so clearly shown in the above examples, your knowledge of the language arts, is about on par with the guy at the gun counters knowledge of AR platform .223s. Does that automatically mean you will be the first in line to happily give up all of our 1st Amendment rights? There's a ton of ardent gun owners out there that do not own AR platforms or high capacity mags. They are still NRA members and wholly support the rights of others to. You don't know the guy from Adam, only that he does not hold your passion for AR platforms. His daughter being a cop is a prime reason why and her safety is probably a big concern. No where did you say he wanted them banned, only an attempt to display here, your superior knowledge of firearms over this one(or two) people. Kinda the just of all of these "dumb guy at the gun counter threads".

Over the years, I have many times thought.....''I could not let that go, had to say something.''. Realized after a while that sometimes it's better to bite my lip and walk away, as to go and lower myself to another loud mouth boaster's level.

.....just sayin'.

Normally I would just bite my lip, but in light of recent events I was just too pissed off to let it ride.

 

[MachIVshooter]

More or less going thru my own tests, I fired M855 at half inch steel from an 18" barrel and it cratered it, then shot my 30-06 at it with soft points (Corelokt) and punced right thru.

M855 from an 18" tube isn't moving fast enough, about the same as your 150 grain '06 load. 1/2" mild plate is also not the same as the thinner AR plate used in any type of ballistic vest. You know anyone sticking .500" chunks of A36 in their carrier? Unless training for a Triathalon, I doubt it.

 

[KYregular]

M855 from an 18" tube isn't moving fast enough, about the same as your 150 grain '06 load. 1/2" mild plate is also not the same as the thinner AR plate used in any type of ballistic vest. You know anyone sticking .500" chunks of A36 in their carrier? Unless training for a Triathalon, I doubt it.

The 855 chrono'd around 3100 fps, 150 grain ftom the 06 about 2700. Multiple shots, same result. 223 Wylde chamber

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

"no one needs military grade firepower"

The counter to this argument is to calmly ask for a legal definition of "needs".

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

You know anyone sticking .500" chunks of A36 in their carrier?

Good lord, that would be about 22 pounds per plate. My back hurts just thinking about that.

 

[MachIVshooter]

The 855 chrono'd around 3100 fps, 150 grain ftom the 06 about 2700. Multiple shots, same result. 223 Wylde chamber

Do you wanna argue about your overly optimistic M855 and understated .30-06 velocities, or would you like to understand the difference between 3/16"-1/4" hardened armor plate and thicker mild steel?

You seem to be very convinced of your own intellectual superiority vis-a-vis firearms and external ballistics, but I promise you'll learn more listening inquisitively than speaking obstinately, and you could use the education. You're paying little attention to the information and wisdom other knowledgeable members are offering you here.

 

[Jenrick]

All anecdotal testing ignores the actual reality of NIJ testing. A plate that is NIJ rated is only required to stop the following:

Type III hard armor or plate inserts shall be tested in a conditioned state with 7.62 mm FMJ, steel jacketed bullets (U.S. Military designation M80) with a specified mass of 9.6 g (147 gr) and a velocity of 847 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (2780 ft/s ± 30 ft/s).

Type IV hard armor or plate inserts shall be tested in a conditioned state with .30 caliber armor piercing (AP) bullets (U.S. Military designation M2 AP) with a specified mass of 10.8 g (166 gr) and a velocity of 878 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (2880 ft/s ± 30 ft/s).

You can purchase special threat plates that ARE rated specifically to stop 5.56/.223 at various velocities, but it is only rated for the specific round tested. In short a NIJ .06 level 4 plate could theoretically stop an M2 AP .30-06 round and let a .22lr though and it would be perfectly fine.

-Jenrick

 

[KYregular]

Do you wanna argue about your overly optimistic M855 and understated .30-06 velocities, or would you like to understand the difference between 3/16"-1/4" hardened armor plate and thicker mild steel?

You seem to be very convinced of your own intellectual superiority vis-a-vis firearms and external ballistics, but I promise you'll learn more listening inquisitively than speaking obstinately, and you could use the education. You're paying little attention to the information and wisdom other knowledgeable members are offering you here.

Never started an argument, just telling you my results. This post started over the someone saying something that I disagreed with, and I was venting for the most part. You, and not I have attributed the "intellectually superior part" to your own argument. I guess you are calling me a liar over my own results, so be it. No skin off of my back pal! When I look at armor ratings that say "up to 30-06" thats what I assume.

 

[KYregular]

All anecdotal testing ignores the actual reality of NIJ testing. A plate that is NIJ rated is only required to stop the following:

Type III hard armor or plate inserts shall be tested in a conditioned state with 7.62 mm FMJ, steel jacketed bullets (U.S. Military designation M80) with a specified mass of 9.6 g (147 gr) and a velocity of 847 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (2780 ft/s ± 30 ft/s).

Type IV hard armor or plate inserts shall be tested in a conditioned state with .30 caliber armor piercing (AP) bullets (U.S. Military designation M2 AP) with a specified mass of 10.8 g (166 gr) and a velocity of 878 m/s ± 9.1 m/s (2880 ft/s ± 30 ft/s).

You can purchase special threat plates that ARE rated specifically to stop 5.56/.223 at various velocities, but it is only rated for the specific round tested. In short a NIJ .06 level 4 plate could theoretically stop an M2 AP .30-06 round and let a .22lr though and it would be perfectly fine.

-Jenrick

Agree, my point is from the beginning that the guys I were talking to were acting like an AR is the only dangerous gun on the streets.

 

[MachIVshooter]

When I look at armor ratings that say "up to 30-06" thats what I assume.

Because you don't understand the velocity component, the physics & metallurgy involved here, and that a smaller, lighter and more lightly constructed bullet with much lower muzzle energy can penetrate certain materials that stop the "more powerful" round. I offered to explain, but you are dismissive and cocky. I can pretty well guess your age based on your OP and how you handle other members here trying to temper your zeal and educate you.

I guess you are calling me a liar over my own results, so be it. No skin off of my back pal!

If you post velocities of "about" with nice round figures on the 100s when talking about a specific firearm with a spcific barrel length, it looks very much to us like you plucked those numbers from the box of ammo or looked at the website, and perhaps tried to adjust for your barrel length by plugging in so many FPS per inch or glancing at BBTI figures for something similar. Most of us who chrono loads record the information, and can recall the velocities without looking at our books to much more precise figures. I'd have to look at my books to tell you the high, low and average velocity to the single FPS of my .25-06 hunting load with 117s or my 10mm 180 gr. nuclear loads, but can state off the top that they averaged 3,195 FPS from a 24" Rem 700 and 1,405 FPS from a 5" S&W 1006 respectively.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

I fired M855 at half inch steel from an 18" barrel and it cratered it

<Well there's your problem.jpg>

M855 almost invariably gets stopped by Level III AR500 plates. M193 on the other hand has a habit of punching through. The extra 200ish FPS offsets the loss of 7gr of bullet weight and allows the bullet to defeat the plate.

That's why there are now Level III+ plates. This particular little factoid is why I like to point out to people the masses of 55gr M193 clones stacked on shelves everywhere. Suddenly, the III+ plate looks a lot better.

 

[KYregular]

Because you don't understand the velocity component, the physics & metallurgy involved here, and that a smaller, lighter and more lightly constructed bullet with much lower muzzle energy can penetrate certain materials that stop the "more powerful" round. I offered to explain, but you are dismissive and cocky. I can pretty well guess your age based on your OP and how you handle other members here trying to temper your zeal and educate you.

Just because I can't recall EXACT numbers when their not in front of me does not mean I plucked them from anywhere. I do appreciate input from here, but don't like being told I'm making stuff up. I reload and have pages of recorded data, sorry if i can't remember ever load that I have tested. Sure, I understand what your saying, and that there are multiple levels of armor and steel. I personally only shoot AR500 for safety with my pistol loads, but thats not what I tested with. As far as being cocky, and your guessing my age, I would guess that I'm older than you, and that's uncalled for. My point of this post is not to argue ballistics, but to point out that I dont want someone who, just because they don't see their need for a particular gun, telling me that I don't need it either.


If you post velocities of "about" with nice round figures on the 100s when talking about a specific firearm with a spcific barrel length, it looks very much to us like you plucked those numbers from the box of ammo or looked at the website, and perhaps tried to adjust for your barrel length by plugging in so many FPS per inch or glancing at BBTI figures for something similar. Most of us who chrono loads record the information, and can recall the velocities without looking at our books to much more precise figures. I'd have to look at my books to tell you the high, low and average velocity to the single FPS of my .25-06 hunting load with 117s or my 10mm 180 gr. nuclear loads, but can state off the top that they averaged 3,195 FPS from a 24" Rem 700 and 1,405 FPS from a 5" S&W 1006 respectively.

 

[KYregular]

Edit

 

[KYregular]

Because you don't understand the velocity component, the physics & metallurgy involved here, and that a smaller, lighter and more lightly constructed bullet with much lower muzzle energy can penetrate certain materials that stop the "more powerful" round. I offered to explain, but you are dismissive and cocky. I can pretty well guess your age based on your OP and how you handle other members here trying to temper your zeal and educate you.



If you post velocities of "about" with nice round figures on the 100s when talking about a specific firearm with a spcific barrel length, it looks very much to us like you plucked those numbers from the box of ammo or looked at the website, and perhaps tried to adjust for your barrel length by plugging in so many FPS per inch or glancing at BBTI figures for something similar. Most of us who chrono loads record the information, and can recall the velocities without looking at our books to much more precise figures. I'd have to look at my books to tell you the high, low and average velocity to the single FPS of my .25-06 hunting load with 117s or my 10mm 180 gr. nuclear loads, but can state off the top that they averaged 3,195 FPS from a 24" Rem 700 and 1,405 FPS from a 5" S&W 1006 respectively.

As far as your guess to my age, it's probably more than you think. Not trying to be cocky, just because I can't quote excat specifics does not mean that I'm pulling something off of the internet or an ammo box. I have chronod pages of data and can't remember it all exactly, good for you if you can. My point of the post originally was that I don't want someone who does not want a particular rifle telling me that I dont need one either. I hope thats something we can agree on. Always have appreciated useful info from the HR, particularly when it comes to working up loads. No need for backbiting.

 

[MachIVshooter]

My point of the post originally was that I don't want someone who does not want a particular rifle telling me that I dont need one either. I hope thats something we can agree on.

Of course we can. Where we aren't on the same page is how to approach the fair-weather friend a Fudd constitutes. If you're condescending or hostile, you'll not likely change their mind, and if you get even one detail wrong in your diatribe and they catch it, it tends to invalidate the whole argument in their eyes. Conversely, if you're friendly, polite and respectful, and you get all the facts straight, even the ones they find unbelievable, they're more apt to reconsider their position. For instance, a lot of people roll their eyes a bit when you tell them that a 230 gr. 45 cal hollowpoint from a pistol is more likely to exit a residential structure than 5.56mm 55 gr. ball from an AR-15, think it's hogwash. But then they go read up on it later, find out you're right, and suddenly they're a bit sheepish, become more pliable on their own position. Doesn't always work that way, and you'll never convince a dyed-in-the-wool anti, but most people have very little information on the topic, the majority of which is really misinformation. Our duty to ourselves and the preservation of 2A is to educate them, because the facts are on our side.

 

[KYregular]

Of course we can. Where we aren't on the same page is how to approach the fair-weather friend a Fudd constitutes. If you're condescending or hostile, you'll not likely change their mind, and if you get even one detail wrong in your diatribe and they catch it, it tends to invalidate the whole argument in their eyes. Conversely, if you're friendly, polite and respectful, and you get all the facts straight, even the ones they find unbelievable, their more apt to reconsider their position. For instance, a lot of people roll their eyes a bit when you tell them that a 230 gr. 45 cal hollowpoint from a pistol is more likely to exit a residential structure than 5.56mm 55 gr. ball from an AR-15, think it's hogwash. But then they go read up on it later, find out you're right, and suddenly their a bit sheepish, become more pliable on their own position. Doesn't always work that way, and you'll never convince a dyed-in-the-wool anti, but most people have very little information on the topic, most of which is really misinformation. Our duty to ourselves and the preservation of 2A is to educate them, because the facts are on our side.

I agree, and did not try to argue with the guys, just explained that once you give in to issues such as "a little gun control" they will come back for more. Which they just blew off. The whole issue of piercing body armor is vague because of the varieties. I did explain that an AR would penetrate most body armor such as kevlar, but he returned by telling me that "they don't make body armor they will stop an AR round period" which is just wrong. Then he went on to tell me that owns 6 AR's himself, and does not think anyone else should? (which I failed to mention earlier). I actually changed the subject as he was buying a 9mm and was debating between an SCCY and a HI-Point and urged him to buy the SCCY which he did (even though I would not buy either) and things were cool. I was not refuting anything you say regarding ballistics, but it is true that I did pierce that 1/2" dozer pad with my 30-06 and M855 would not (at 100 yards if that makes a difference). I have punched thru 1/4" steel with LAP however and never knew that I hit it. All things said, they were the ones who wanted to argue and I just stood my ground.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I did explain that an AR would penetrate most body armor such as kevlar, but he returned by telling me that "they don't make body armor they will stop an AR round period" which is just wrong.

Yes, very wrong.

Then he went on to tell me that owns 6 AR's himself, and does not think anyone else should?

That type just isn't even worth your/our time. Elitists, the "good for me but not for thee" crowd can never be convinced by any argument presented because they are not dealing in logic, and suffer from illusory superiority and lack of humility to a tragic degree. I've encountered that type, and will simply call them out for being the arrogant snob they are with vernacular they barely comprehend, loud enough that everyone in the immediate vicinity can hear, and then go about my business.

 

[Danoobie]

Every time somebody makes a statement like "who needs a military rifle", or " military firepower ", they are just showing how ignorant they are
of firearms history.
The bolt actions we all hunt with all evolved from war rifles, predominantly the Mauser. Lever guns have been used by armies in wars. Almost every
firearms development ever made was found during the crisis or need of wartime, or used, after it was created, in war. Those same bolt actions have
powerful calibers which make modern military rifle calibers pale in comparison.

 

[hso]

won't penetrate more than 2 layers of sheetrock but it will defeat body armor

Neither is accurate. Look at The Box 'O Truth drywall tests. Our tests done a few years before showed 55 grain 5.56 to penetrate a couple of walls (2 pair of drywall sheets) before showing any sign of energy loss (deflection/keyholling/disintegration) vs. 9mm and .45 that penetrated another 2 or three pairs of sheets spaced like walls.

 

[Jackal]

When people come up to my gun counter and tell me what people "dont need", I counter with this: "All we need is food, air, water and shelter, everything else is just gravy. Thankfully America is the land of wants, not the land of needs. We have the freedom to want."

 

[George Dickel]

Neither is accurate. Look at The Box 'O Truth drywall tests. Our tests done a few years before showed 55 grain 5.56 to penetrate a couple of walls (2 pair of drywall sheets) before showing any sign of energy loss (deflection/keyholling/disintegration) vs. 9mm and .45 that penetrated another 2 or three pairs of sheets spaced like walls.

I've watched a number of videos showing how much a 5.56 will penetrate so you're singing to the choir. There are a number of threads on this forum claiming that a 5.56 won't go through more than 1 sheet of drywall two at most.

 

[KYregular]

I've watched a number of videos showing how much a 5.56 will penetrate so you're singing to the choir. There are a number of threads on this forum claiming that a 5.56 won't go through more than 1 sheet of drywall two at most.

Thats it, I am going to test this. I will stack the drywall up and see how many sheets M855 will penetrate, as well as fmj std. rounds. I do believe that the space between 2 sheets of drywall (3.5") could be a difference however.