Second Amendment at the U.S. Supreme Court Now!!

Status
Not open for further replies.
This could either be very good for us or very, very, very bad.

Or, most likely of all, a complete non-starter.

I'm not concerned. The issues involved are so simple, the lines drawn so clearly, that whether his grammar is ideal is just irrelevant. If they take the case, and they want to uphold the 2nd amendment, he could go in there and read the telephone book, and win. If they want to strike it down, he could channel Charence Darrow, and summon up the spirit of James Madison to testify, and they'd rule against him. This is NOT a close issue where the arguments will sway the result.
 
Brett,

Case in point regarding my proofreading :p

The very, very bad part wasn't regarding his grammar....just the fact that the case is going before the court. I should take my own advice, I suppose and proof for clarity.
 
Complete non-starter. They will deny cert and let this guy go back to dealing with black helicopters.
There are two conflicting cases already making their way up to the court: U.S. vs Emerson in the 5th Circuit (holding that the Second applies to individuals) and Silveira vs. Lockyer in the 9th Circuit (holding that it applies only to militia). They will pick one of these to decide the issue. Probably why this guy is getting no help from NRA.

Take a look at this article
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1039054410124
 
Last edited:
Rabbi, your info is out of date. The Supreme court has already refused certiori, with the usual lack of any explaination, to Emerson and Silveira vs. Lockyer. There's still that D.C. Cato institute case, though...
 
Lots of panic here, but let's all take a deep breath. First of all, I don't think the current court is going to grant cert on this.

Second, if they do and he loses, does the world end? The people who wanted a right to abortion recognized (or written in, if that's your preference--we are NOT going to have an argument about abortion) lost cases and were denied cert countless times. They kept coming and eventually they got what they wanted.

There's nothing to say that if Mr. Hamrick gets his case heard and loses, that means we can never win. Think of the fury of duck hunters all across America if the SCOTUS is forced to come out and openly attack the 2nd Amendment! Think of what Scalia or Thomas would write in the dissent.

We should be willing to fight this year, next year and every year, not just at the mythical "perfect moment" when everything is already stacked our way. If we lose, we come back and fight on those appointments just like we would have done anyway.

Besides, it's not like you, I or the cat can stop him if he decides to press this anyway.
 
Their is the argument that the Supreme Court is NOT the final word on the interpretation of the Constitution. That the U.S. Department of Justice also has the right and the power to interpret the Constitution along with the People by the election process, by public demonstrations and protest.

Scare me much.

Hey, I was kind of on-board with you, Don Hamrick, with the whole concept of a member of the citizenry requesting cert from the SCOTUS on a major constitutional question affecting civil liberties and federal and state law. I was even willing to overlook the fact that you're calling for a constitutional interpretation that declares we all have the right to open carry of side arms at all times. (I personally like concealed carry, and know what battles are better picked.)

But now you're posting (on a public board, no less) that you, the petitioner in a case up for cert before the S Ct, don't hold that Court to be the ultimate interpreter of the Constitution? Uh, read much Article III, lately? I refer specifically to Section 2, Cl 1: "The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made..." Seriously, go read your Constitution.

Sure, the D.O.J. has power to interpret their duties as an office of the Executive Branch, which has, under Article II, specifically under Section 2, the power and duty to:
  • Command the Army, Navy, and the Militia (when called into service),
  • Require the opinion of any officer of the Executive Departments,
  • Grant reprieves and Pardons for offences against the U.S. (except in impeachment.),
  • Make treaties (w/advice and consent of Senate),
  • Nominate ambassadors, judges, etc,
  • Fill vacancies during Senate recess,
  • Give a State of the Union address (needn't be verbal), and
  • must (This is important) "...take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, and shall Commission all the Officers of the United States."

Under Marbury v. Madison (1803), the Court established that it has the power of Judicial Review. Basically, that 202 year old case is STILL the benchmark used to show that the Court has the right to review the actions of the Executive Branch and the Legislature.

I have to question the logic of denying the authority of the very court to whom you are presenting a case for judgment and prayer for relief.

I further wonder what the mechanics of interpretation would be, by the People, without the Court? Does the Executive interpret its duty? Sure, and the Judiciary interprets its actions. Does the Legislature interpret the duties of the Executive? Sure, by passing laws within the Court's interpretation of the Constitution.

This is not just "an argument" that can be made-- this is the profound structural basis of the Constitution of the United States, as adopted in 1789.

Don't try to play it from both sides-- either the Court has the power or it's not worth appealing to.

Question-- why haven't you filed in federal District Court?
 
I agree; The time is always right to take this to the Supreme court. Either they ignore it, (Most likely.) they uphold the 2nd amendment, (Whee!) or they strike it down, in which case all the fence sitters get a wakeup call, and the next election makes '94 look like a minor burp.

For all practical purposes, as far as the courts are concerned there IS no 2nd amendment. The Supreme court CAN'T make it worse. The worst they'll do is say the government can violate our rights at will, and that's the situation right now.
 
Is there a way to check and see if this is true?

No disrespect intended to the new poster who started the thread but no sense wasting bandwidth on someone goofing around . . . . .

If it is true . . . . well not sure what it means. Hope it does some good . . . .
 
If we're waiting for a better stacking of justices, I, for one, will not be holding my breath.

I expect the future make-up of the USSC will be worse, regardless of who makes the appointments. Heck, the majority of the current court was appointed by supposed "conservatives," wasn't it?

I say go for it! More power to ya!

IMO, concealled carry and reciprosity is back-door registration.

In other places and other times there has usually been another step after registration.
 
DIRECTED TO MATT G MODERATOR:

You are behind the times on "judicial review." I make it a point to find the latest law reviews on particular constitutonal topics, countless topics, just so I can be conversant in my writings.

http://www.vsb.org/publications/valawyer/oct04/kelsey.pdf
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=619263
http://www.constitution.org/9ll/schol/kurt_lash_lost_9th.pdf#search='the%20lost%20original%20meaning%20of%20the%20ninth'
http://www.utexas.edu/law/journals/tlr/abstracts/83/83Lash2.pdf#search='the%20lost%20jurisprudence'
http://www.utexas.edu/law/journals/tlr/abstracts/83/83Powe.pdf
http://www.utexas.edu/law/journals/tlr/abstracts/83/83young.pdf
http://www.utexas.edu/law/journals/tlr/abstracts/83/83barnett.pdf

Book Review Essay

Are “the People†Missing in Action (and Should Anyone Care)?

THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES: POPULAR CONSTITUTIONALISM AND
JUDICIAL REVIEW. By Larry D. Kramer.† New York: Oxford
University Press, 2004. Pp. xii, 363. $29.95.

Reviewed by L. A. Powe, Jr.

[FOOTNOTES OMITTED]

For almost a half century, the Supreme Court has claimed that it is the final authority on the meaning and interpretation of the Constitution.1 This notion is most forcefully asserted in the O’Connor-Kennedy-Souter opinion in Planned Parenthood v. Casey, where the trio argued that when the Court decided a contentious constitutional issue, it was the duty of all Americans to put their differences aside and follow the Court’s lead.2 Subsequently, in Boerne,3 Dickerson,4 and Morrison,5 a majority of the Court signaled their adherence to the belief that the Court is the sole authoritative expositor of the Constitution. This allegiance was subsequently validated when awestruck Democrats conceded that Bush v. Gore6 (while disagreeable and wrong) was within the Court’s province as “the ultimate interpretation of our Constitution†and had to be accepted.7 If the ranking Democrat on the Senate Judiciary Committee believes this, it is no wonder that ordinary citizens do not “gainsay†the Court.8

It wasn’t always like this. Thomas Jefferson never believed that the judiciary had the last word.9 Andrew Jackson vetoed the rechartering of the Bank of the United States,10 showing his contempt for McCulloch v. Maryland.11 Abraham Lincoln and the Republicans rejected Dred Scott12 and refused to be bound by it (except in its exact holding that Scott was not free).13 Franklin D. Roosevelt had prepared a message announcing that he would ignore the Court’s decision in the Gold Clause Cases.14 And if the Court had intervened uninvited into the deadlocked presidential election of 1876,15 the losers would not have been resigned to claiming “we’ve been robbed.â€16

Larry Kramer’s The People Thems elves demonstrates that “[t]his modern understanding . . . reflects neither the original conception of constitutionalism nor its course over most of American history.â€17 Thus until the modern era, “[P]roblems of fundamental law—what we would call questions of constitutional interpretation—were thought of as . . . problems that could be authoritatively settled only by ‘the people’ expressing themselves throughâ€18 voting, petitioning, pamphletting, public meetings, as well as through intimidation of officials, and, if necessary, mob action.19 This was a world of popular constitutionalism where the people exercised “active and ongoing control over the interpretation and enforcement of constitutional law.â€20 The Court was one, but only one, player in identifying the meaning of the Constitution. Although Kramer is not an originalist,21 The People Themselves is a plea for the revival of the beliefs and actions of this earlier period.
 
Brett sure hit the x ring there.

Someone said that the Consitution wasn't law, but the guideline for what laws can regulate?

Regardless, the courts need to strike down the laws and exec orders restricting legal gun ownership (including that '86 no new FAs that Reagan signed) and the liars that take an oath to support and uphold the constitution need to start being charged with official misconduct
Or
Repeal the second
Or
Quit wasting my tax money guarding what too many judges and legistators consider to be paper for the outhouse.

I agree I'd feel more comfortable with a well funded legal team, but this country is supposed to be about US--the people. And if it aint, then it aint.
 
Wow. I can't believe how afraid people here are. It sounds like you are all wanting to avoid the issue afraid you will lose more rights. If that is the case...way to stand up for yourselves...your forefathers would be proud. If not, sorry for the misinterpretation.
 
You Did Not Know A 2nd Amendment Case Was At The U.S. Supreme Court?

:cuss: :fire: :banghead: You can thank the NRA, the Second Amendment Foundation, and www.KeepAndBearArms.com for their news blackout on my case.

I have asked many times over the previous 3 years to help me with my 2nd Amendment case in any way they can. From assigning an attorney to my case to publicizing news about my case, my every request was refused.

KeepAndBearArms.com published a few articles on my case during the first 6 months or so in 2002 but refused to give any further interested to my case.

So, I question whether these Second Amendment gun rights organizations are really fighting for your gun rights or just perpetuating their financial existance by asking for your donations and financial support.

I have personally met with Wayne LaPierre of the NRA and Alan Gottlieb of the Second Amendment Foundation about my case to no avail. Their political agenda is all about National Reciprocity for Concealed Carry to which Alan Korwin of www.gunlaws.com said was "bull????" at their 19th Annual Gun Rights Policy Conference. I agree with Alan Korwin.

My agenda is national open carry handgun for the common defence of this country as well as for personal safety and security which will tend to make the Second Amendment as near an absolute right as possible with the minimum of state or federal legislation incrementally infringing upon that right.

That's the rub with the NRA and SAF/KABA. That is why you did not know about my case until know. They and the Supreme Court know that without national publicity given to a Second Amendment case the Supreme Court will be free of political pressure to hear my case and will therefore be emboldened to deny certiorari to my case.

The NRA and SAF/KABA are traitors to the Second Amendment!
 
Why, in God' name, representing oneself such a bad thing?
If you're not a lawyer, then the reason is because you have no idea what you're doing.

This doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of being accepted.
 
DIRECTED TO GRAYSTAR:

I know exactly what I am doing. I have studied the Constitution, read countless law reviews on my laptop, I know the Federal Rules of Procedure for all the federal courts, all within the span of 10 years of leisure studies, and addictively in the last 3 years with these cases of mine.

So what if I don't stand a snowball's chance in hell. The U.S. Supreme Court has been put on notice of the growing fued over the Second Amendment.
 
But it wouldn't stand a chance even if he DID have a lawyer. The Supreme court simply doesn't intend to take 2nd amendment cases, no matter how good they are, and that's not going to change until the composition of the court does.
 
Not unless there is a threatened uprising!

Krygyzstan - government toppled without a single shot being fired!
 
Don,

I admire your devotion. If you want to send me all you have I will happily read it. I am not a lawyer but I am first in my class in law school.

For all the naysayers out there, I can tell you that law school and being a lawyer is not necessarily the best way to win a case. I am not saying being pro se is either. While I would personally feel a bit better with a couple hired guns from Mayer, Jenner, W&C or Wilmer on my team, cases have been won with less.

That being said, I am curious as to why you decided to pick this particular issue to litigate on second amendment grounds. It seems to be the one of the worst issues to litigate 2a on. There is no evidence of a widespread practice of carrying handguns in the late 18th century. Regulation was widely practiced in the 19th century and continues to this day.

I think the real challenge would be a challenge to the NFA or, say perhaps the DC gun ban.

Best of luck,

EDIT: do you have any lower court opinions on your case?
 
I know exactly what I am doing. I have studied the Constitution, read countless law reviews on my laptop, I know the Federal Rules of Procedure for all the federal courts, all within the span of 10 years of leisure studies, and addictively in the last 3 years with these cases of mine.
But have you studied general law?

You’ve done the equivalent of a traveler’s crash course in French. You learned parts of the law that pertain to your immediate area of interest, just like the traveler that learns how to ask for directions or even order a meal in French. But the traveler doesn’t have a grasp of the language, and can’t sit and have a meaningful conversation. In the same way, the scope of law is so much greater than your narrow focus that your case fails to withstand even general principle of law.
 
DIRECTED TO SUE ROVR:

That's the problem!

It is the statute-centric mentality that has gotten us into this mess.

I am taking the Constitution-centric approach. Taking my interpretation of the Constitution mandating an openly armed citizen for the Common Defence. All laws that denigrate the Common Defence through the Second Amendment violates the protection clause of the Constitution. Personal Security Enhances National Security.
 
The Supreme court simply doesn't intend to take 2nd amendment cases, no matter how good they are, and that's not going to change until the composition of the court does.
I don’t agree. As far as I can tell, there have been no good cases brought to the court. I’m no lawyer, but even I was able to see that all the attempts of the last several years were deeply flawed. As far as I can tell there is no good case on the horizon. Currently, HR47 is our best hope.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top