Shield or R51. Please read the post before voting.

[gym]

Shield is now running right with all of the bugs out. Lot's of LEO's carry them, I would say no contest at the moment. If you looked back in a year who knows. My PM9 is my EDC, I have no reason to doubt it, cleaned it last night, shows no signs of any problem other than that slight bulging up front that never got any worse from the first time I shot it. Kahr says it's normal, so until the gun shows me any different I believe them. I have run every brand of ammo thru it with not one hang up, or any other kind of failure, gun runs 100%. It's a heck of a good gun with over 500 rounds on it.
That and my XDS, both are excellent, the XDS kicks about the same as the Kahr. If I had to pick just one, I would take the 45, it is after all a 45.
But the 9mm is cheaper to practice with so I carry it more. I would get a Shield now if I were looking just for the price. The PM9 is too expensive for what it is.

 

[chris in va]

I feel this poll only applies to people that have fired both. I didn't vote because I have only tried the Shield.

 

[zerobarrier]

I have fired both and I vote for the r51. I bought a r51 for my wife, after going thru a bodyguard, sig p938, and a cz 75duty all of which she didn't like because she had a hard time pulling the slides back and hitting our steel targets consistently. Enter the r51, we did have 1 problem with it, it was hard to pull the slide back which was due to 2 metal prongs sticking up by the hammer, it is back at remington to be fix - their customer service was great by the way. I am sure they will fix it then it will be a great gun. Before we sent it back we fired about 150rds thru it and she was able to make hits on almost every shot. The recoil was nothing and barley any muzzle flip so she was able to get back on target very well. As for carrying it she also likes it more then the others. It is very well rounded and comfortable to carry for her. The other pistols I listed were uncomfortable for her to carry. I think the r51 helped her because of the grip safety, you have to squeeze alittle bit to engage it, which she found out we she tried to shoot it without using a proper grip - which is one of the problems I think she had shooting the other pistols, she just didn't hold it right. I did not mind the grip safety, didn't even notice it, as long as you are holding your pistol properly you won't know it either. Just my 2 cents. If you want to know anything else just ask and I will answer if I can.

 

[tomrkba]

A new design is not suitable for defensive purposes. There are bound to be bugs. Have people already forgotten the Springfield Armory and Caracal recalls? Give it at least a year to bake.

Therefore, the only viable choice in the poll is The Shield.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Heh . . .

- never buy a car in its first year of production
- never run your mission critical systems on a 1.0 release (or .0 release for that matter)
- never buy into bleeding edge technology

Get it?

- never put your life on the line with a gun in year one of production. NEVER

 

[eldon519]

I see several people reference the R51 action as new or innovative. It is not much more than a nearly century-old remake. The Pederson action has been around since 1917. Not much younger than the Browning action. But it certainly isn't as thoroughly field tested and maybe there is a reason it never caught on. I guess we'll see.

 

[barnbwt]

Take a look at the pictures of the R51 bolt I put in the other thread and what the original Model 51 bolt looks like. The gun's layout, manual of arms, and function are very similar, but they actually changed up how they accomplish that more than you'd think. The R51 is almost like a crossbreed of a Model 51 and a FAL.

The Model 51 is very widely praised by people with experience using it, as a much better gun than the competition that simply couldn't find customers during the Depression. We all know the only reason the 1911 persisted was because of WWII service history, and guess what; the Model 53 (45cal version of the 51) actually ranked higher in trials, but was logistically too impractical --i.e. expensive--for the military to buy in when Colt was ready and raring to go.

As with the modern '1911's,' there is very little need to innovate for the heck of it when it comes to most things on the Model 51. Remington just needed to solve the bolt-breaking issue of the originals (see above), scale it to 9mm appropriately, and then make the damn thing without screwing it up (oops).

"But it certainly isn't as thoroughly field tested and maybe there is a reason it never caught on."
It was too nice. Imagine trying to market a Hi Power P35 against a Hi Point during the Depression. Hey, they're both 9mm's and they both work; why spring for the more refined, softer shooter?

"P.S. Remington should have actually finished the gun they were building. If they had, I would have been willing to pay five bills for it."
Isn't that ever the truth. I said like back in January the introductory run of guns should be custom-finished fluff and buffs with custom serial numbers and a registration certificate. Just imagine how wild people would be right now if the first round of guns had been flawless and very well made. Remington would be able to ask five bills for the junk they're selling now, and 6-7 bills for a good product, at least for the first few quarters. I'm fairly certain the reason they didn't is that Para USA, SC simply is unable.

TCB

 

[GAF]

I got to handle an R51 today. It feels cheap and junky. I bought a Sig Sauer P290RS instead.

 

[bensdad]

Ever since they had wonderful success with the 870 Express, Remington has been cranking out gun models/designs of questionable quality. They TOTALLY got by with cutting corners on that Express, but on everything else? Not so much. Remember the 710? of course not. Anyone still trying to keep their 597 limping along? What's their latest incantation? The 760 or something?

Anyway, the 51 looks, to this VERY untrained eye, like a blowback gun. If I want a blowback gun, I'll get a Hi-Point.

Shield - by a landslide. Remington needs to rediscover their roots.

 

[Jed Carter]

Never had an issue with my M&P Shield 9mm, bought it the first month they were out. No storage case just a crappy cardboard box, hope they ship in something better now. As for the R51, "interesting" is the most complementary word I can find to describe it. Vote with my wallet, I bought the Shield, wife laid claim to it (along with my SIG 238 ). Not really interest in the R1 let alone the R51, may be a good pistol, just can't get past the looks.

 

[JDGray]

After handling a R51, the weight alone would make me choose the shield. I carry a CW9, and the R51 weighed quite a bit more than it did...

 

[JohnnyBravo]

After handling a R51, the weight alone would make me choose the shield. I carry a CW9, and the R51 weighed quite a bit more than it did...

After carrying a P7 for several years the 6 oz weight reduction of the R51 would be a relief.

JB

 

[Hunter991]

I would say shield for sure. Mine has been perfect. Along with the kahr cw/cm9 or the xds. I think all of these are better than the rem. rem to me is a rifle maker with a few pistols. But I just don't see the draw to the r51. It may be good in the end but the ones I mention above already have the bugs worked out.

 

[barnbwt]

"Anyway, the 51 looks, to this VERY untrained eye, like a blowback gun. If I want a blowback gun, I'll get a Hi-Point."

It's a locked breech. And it *only* costs two Hi-Points, so how nice are we really expecting this thing to be? I'm personally just expecting it to work (unlike a Hi-Point pistol). If you really wanted a blowback pistol, you'd get an Astra.

TCB

 

[gym]

As a few members mentioned, how could you buy a new model, before it had any credibility? It's not a toaster, if you pull it out, it better work. I got rid of my first shield in 40 for that exact reason, it was too new, and the mags were dropping out.
No thought went into the decision to sell it . He knew the problem and knew how to fix it. So bye bye, now 2 years later I understand the 9mm is dead on reliable, I would try it again in 9.
When anyone takes a gun as their "carry" it should be 100%, not 98 or 99. If it FTF's once in 100 rounds, it's not ready for prime time, that simple. It's your life we are talking about here, not a target match.
That goes for any new model, I don't care who makes it. You need to have 3-500 rounds of flawless range time before considering carrying any gun as your carry.
Maybe less with a revolver.

 

[benzy2]

As of today I wouldn't pick the R51 to bet my life on. I'm not an early adopter in this setting and would give the R51 more time to prove itself.

 

[jjones45]

I vote shield for a number of reasons. First of all I don't buy new guns until the bugs have been worked out, especially for concealed carry. I would suggest you wait on the beta testers for at least 12 to 18 months. Now I know everyone couldn't follow this advice or no guns would ever be successfully field tested but I suggest this. The shield had it's minor problems and recall and is now running like a top. I also don't like sub compact ccw's with grip safeties but that's just a preference thing. Also like mentioned prior to my post s&w cs is second to none. I have 2 friends with shields and have shot one and can tell you they are excellent guns. The shield IMHO might very well be s&w best product and best ccw. I plan on getting the wife and I one in the future because we both really enjoyed shooting that gun. Once the r51 gets rolling I hope it can match the quality, reliability, and success of the shield, and then I would consider it

 

[C0untZer0]

It is more than just a matter of working the bugs out of a new gun.

Even guns that use a proven design -- like Browning locked breach can have teething pains. The Kimber Solo, the Nano and some others come to mind.

But the R51 is a different design.

Maybe it isn't just teething pains. You don't see people with Lugers anymore, isn't it a given that there are better designs out there now than the toggle-lock action?

 

[Luger_carbine]

Georg Luger's toggle locked action Parabellum-Pistole is not an inferior design when evaluated on performance and reliability.

It is an expensive design to implement and it is not cheap to manufacture compared to other designs, but a well-made Luger is one of the most reliable pistols ever made - bar none.

You can find plenty of examples of the Browning designs that, when made poorly, are very unreliable pistols.

It may be that the John Pedersen design is fine when manufactured to the proper specifications, or it may not.

Despite the Luger-P08 being a bad example, the point may be valid that this is an apples to oranges comparison since the Shield and R51 have different designs.

 

[jjones45]

I wouldn't bet my life on a unproven pistol, but that's just me. Give the r51 some time to mature. It might end up being an excellent gun

 

[Orion8472]

If both pistols had been out for a few years with neither having any significant issues associated with them, I'd go with the R51.

As of today, I have an R51 on order, . . . and probably won't actually buy it [they can sell it just fine in the store]. Keeping the Shield since I've not had any issues with it.

 

[0352USMC]

Thoughts on the R51

I finally got hands on with the R51 at the Dixie deer classic in NC. First impression was that this gun was off. I didn't like the grip safety, the slide was chunky and tight. Although I did know this was a pre production gun. I still didn't like that it felt like a model gun, like the Display cell phones that you see in department stores that has a sticker on the face and is pretty cheap feeling.

I had my doubts and for good reason, but have always been a huge fan of remington. I did more objective research and found that the guns were contracted by Para-Ordnance in Charlotte NC. But Para is known for its Match quality guns and its high standard. To which Remington has always had a great rep too. I just decided that I would give it a shot.

So I ordered the pistol and after a short wait I got it in at my LGS. Upon removing it from the packaging I noticed that it was much easier to rack than the preproduction models. I also was quick to note the audible click when gripping the safety. This was a welcomed delight after worrying wether or not I was investing in a $400 paperweight. After getting the pistol home I decided to try it out with some 115 Grain 9mm Remington UMC ammo.

I fire the first 50 rounds very rapidly, so that I could gauge the amount of muzzle flip and kick. Surprisingly it was almost like shooting a .22 LR. The penderson action really won me over. But then the second half of the shooting and testing I slowed down my rate of fire so that I could gauge how accurate it was. I was surprised that find after measuring that my farthest shot from any of the groups was 15/16's of an inch away from any give group. And I had several keyhole shots. I shot this pistol enough that I think I can attest to its accuracy. Not only did it impress me, and put away any doubts, but I got my brother in law to shoot it as well and he is going to buy one now.

I'll admit that this pistol is new and a few people might have had genuine problems, but let it also be noted that I am pretty good friends with one of the marketing execs for remington and he found out that several of the video's bashing the R51 were faked by competitors to lower the hype of the pistol since it was named #1 new gun at Shot Show 2014. And if you don't believe it then go watch the video by Military Arms Channel he bashes the R51 and gives a laundry list of issues but never disassembles the pistol to show the internal issues or markings that could be causing the problems. Also their is another video that shows that if you put the slide retention pin back in incorrectly you can manually induce failure.

Over all I give this pistol an A. The only issue I have with it is that the grip safety is tapered backwards from what I am used to on a grip safety. It starts high at the top and tapers down flush with the grip, I feel like it's a little too small at the base of the grip and would be easier for someone with small hands to fail engaging during an attack or quick draw under stress. But During normal shooting and targeting that wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Orion8472]

"....were faked by competitors to lower the hype of the pistol...."

That's a pretty bold claim. I'd like to know which videos are addressed by this comment.

Seems that the potential issue with an aluminum frame and steel slide parts is legitimate.

 

[gyvel]

It certainly wouldn't be the R51 since I will not have a gun with an internal hammer and no external manual safety other than a grip safety.

YMMV

 

[Hometeached1]

I held one the other day in a LGS. The slide was about as hard to rack as my G19 (so not hard, but not as easy as some were saying), was not real smooth either but it did not bind. Still not going to buy one mostly to do with it being SAO and no manual safety.