shoot center mass

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GLOOB

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I have had it pounded into my head that if you shoot in self defense, you must "shoot to kill," so to speak. Technically, shoot to stop - while aiming for the center of the chest. Never fire a warning shot, never try to injure. It's been so ingrained, I almost can't remember having any doubt. Shoot center mass, don't stop until the threat is over.

But I faintly recall questioning this wisdom when I first heard it. And now I am starting to wonder, again.

The wisdom is that if a shot is needed, then your life must be in imminent danger. And to draw a weapon, a shot must be needed. But is a center mass shot the only way to stop an imminent threat?

Also, some states have revised gun laws that makes it legal to draw a weapon without firing in certain situations. E.g., drawing a weapon is not necessarily the crime of brandishing. Does this change things? Is there any exception to the "rule" of only firing center mass, never shoot to injure, never fire a warning shot?
 
A common cite (I don't know the source or accuracy.) is that shots are fired only one time in eleven; the other ten, mere display (brandishing?) of a gun is an adequate defense.

That said, I would not shoot to wound - shows you were doubtful as to the necessity of deadly force - and I would sure not fire a warning shot - that bullet has to land somewhere.
If force is required, the assailant is going to get all I can muster.
 
Shooting to wound is not effective. I do not understand why these discussions keep coming up. If you are employing a lethal weapon, you need to be prepared to deal leathal force. If that bothers you get a taser or mace.
 
GLOOB said:
...The wisdom is that if a shot is needed, then your life must be in imminent danger. And to draw a weapon, a shot must be needed. But is a center mass shot the only way to stop an imminent threat?

Also, some states have revised gun laws that makes it legal to draw a weapon without firing in certain situations. E.g., drawing a weapon is not necessarily the crime of brandishing. Does this change things? Is there any exception to the "rule" of only firing center mass, never shoot to injure,...
The bottom line is that shooting to wound is not a good idea and may not stop the attack.

[1] Yes, one may generally draw a gun in response to a reasonably perceived credible threat of an imminent potentially lethal attack. In other words, if under the circumstances you could reasonably anticipate an imminent attack that you would be justified in meeting with lethal force, you would be justified in drawing your gun. If the threat then ends without your firing your gun, you still have not unlawfully brandished it.

[2] The point is that if you are faced with a credible, imminent lethal threat, you need to end that threat as soon as possible. If it ends without your firing a shot, that's a good result. But if you need to fire a shot, your goal needs to end the threat right away.

[3] I’ve been taught that there were four ways in which shooting an assailant will stop the threat:

  • psychological -- "I'm shot, it hurts, I don't want to get shot any more."
  • massive blood loss depriving the brain of blood supply and therefore oxygen and thus physiologically impairing function
  • breaking major skeletal support structures
  • damaging the central nervous system.

[4] Of those, damage to the central nervous system is the quickest, surest and most likely to be fatal. And hoping the guy will stop because it hurts, is the least sure and most likely to be hazardous to your own health.

[5] People, both good and bad, have fought long and hard with serious, and often ultimately fatal wounds. And someone who has massive amounts of adrenalin in his system, like a bad guy under the stress of committing a violent crime might, may not feel much pain from even a serious wound.

[6] Since adrenalin or drugs can blunt the effects of pain, and people have continued to fight when severely wounded, effectively stopping the fight usually requires causing sufficient damage to render the attacker physiologically incapable of continuing the fight, such as from massive blood loss depriving the brain of oxygen, major damage to important skeletal support structures or damage to the central nervous system.

[7] We therefore are generally taught, and practice, shooting for the center of mass of our attacker, i. e., his chest. It presents a bigger, and generally less mobile, target than the head. And the idea is that within that area of the body there are a lot of major organs that will bleed a lot when damaged. So the center of mass is the usual target of choice because it’s the one we’re most likely to be able to hit. And we thus rely on blood loss depriving the attacker’s muscles of oxygen to stop the fight. The rub is that the effects of blood loss and oxygen deprivation can take some time – during which our attacker will most likely continue to try to hurt us.

[8] The simple fact is that the more damage that is caused, the quicker the blood supply to the brain will be impaired and the more quickly the attacker will lose the physiological ability to press the fight.
 
Also, some states have revised gun laws that makes it legal to draw a weapon without firing in certain situations. E.g., drawing a weapon is not necessarily the crime of brandishing. Does this change things?
If criminologists estimates of the number of defensive gun uses are to be believed (See The World Wide Web Gun Defense Clock http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/noframedex.html) and compared to the number of justifiable homicides and excusable homicides plus the number of criminals shot and only wounded, then one would have to conclude that most of the time, a criminal attacker will retreat when confronted with an armed "victim". If criminals where willing to risk their lives to make a living, they would move to Alaska and become crab fishermen.



"Our wrongs we must right if we can through the Ballot Box, and if this fails us, through the Cartridge Box."

U.S. Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story wrote;
 
Just because you don't wind up shooting doesn't mean that you weren't planning on it when you drew in the first place. Most armed encounters end with no shots fired. This means that most of the time, the sight of the gun does save your life. But it doesn't mean you should shoot to wound, any more than it means it's ok to carry the gun unloaded.
 
Technically, shoot to stop - while aiming for the center of the chest.

Actually, shoot for the center of mass that is presented. This may or may not be the center of the chest.

And to draw a weapon, a shot must be needed.

Not true. You, the defender, must be willing and able to make the necessary shot once you draw the gun, but it is not required, depending on what the badguy does during your draw.

Never fire a warning shot,

YOU are fully responsible for each and every round that leaves your gun. Where will the warning shot land? In little Timmy riding his bike 2 blocks over?

never try to injure. (shoot to wound)

Why would you want to try and do that? It ain't TV and making a wounding shot under pressure, usually under bad lighting then waiting to see if it worked isn't a good idea.

Let's presume you don't miss (and hit that damn Little Timmy on his stupid bike...again!) but that you hit the badguy in the arm. He drops the knife. He sues, you go to court. On the stand they ask you,

"Why did you shoot my client?"

You simply say, "Because he was getting ready to kill me."

"Getting ready to kill you? You mean, your life wasn't in imminent danger at the actual point in time that you shot my client? Nevertheless, you employed deadly force before it was warranted, IF it was warranted at all????"

"But, but, he had a knife!!"

"Well, I have a knife in my pocket, too. Does that make you want to shoot me?"
 
"#2 Never point a loaded gun at anything that you do not wish to destroy."

Rule 2: Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.

It does not say: Never let the muzzle cover anything until you are ready to imminently shoot, or kill, it.

The point at which civilians, LEOs, military personnel, etc may perceive that they are willing to destroy something may vary. Once that point is reached, the muzzles may come on target. Rule 2 is being adhered to.

Per Col. Cooper at http://dvc.org.uk/jeff/jeff6_2.html :
"Rule 2: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY
You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such."
 
I am unable to envision a realistic situation where:

1- I am able to calmly draw a bead on a "wound" target
AND
2- There is a credible threat requiring deadly force to stop

Plus I haven't figured out a good way to train for busting kneecaps on a running target, getting any motion for a chest-size target is hard enough.
 
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A firearm under most state's laws is deadly force. The target it is aimed at is immaterial, the very act of using a firearm constitutes deadly force. Shooting someone in the foot is the same as shooting them in the chest, deadly force.

-Jenrick
 
A firearm under most state's laws is deadly force. The target it is aimed at is immaterial, the very act of using a firearm constitutes deadly force. Shooting someone in the foot is the same as shooting them in the chest, deadly force.

-Jenrick
Yes, but supposing you did not want the attacker to die, and for some reason you believe the attack will stop if a shot if fired. Any shot. A warning shot into the ground, or a shot in his foot. I'm just curious to see the argument, is all.

Employing martial arts can be lethal force in some scenarios, but that doesn't mean you have to go for the Mortal Kombat finishing move where you pull the opponent's spine out of their body. At least not every time! :)

If 9 times out of ten, the mere presence of a handgun thwarts an attack, what about the other 1 in 10? Maybe you have one of these new, modern mouse guns that looks like a toy, and the attacker doesn't believe it's real. I dunno. Maybe he is willing to call your "bluff" and attempt to attack and disarm you, but the mere noise of a gunshot (assuming anyone is in hearing range) will be discouraging, sorta like a rape whistle on steroids? Just throwing out what ifs. I know the cardinal rule is to not draw unless someone needs to be shot, but like others have noted - a lot can change by the time the gun is drawn.
 
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GLOOB said:
...supposing you did not want the attacker to die, and for some reason you believe the attack will stop if a shot if fired...
Why would you think that? Even if you did think that, why would you believe it? Why would you believe it enough to bet your life or the life of a loved one on your guess about what the attacker would do? When did you start reading minds?

GLOOB said:
...Maybe he is willing to call your "bluff" and attempt to attack and disarm you, but the mere noise of a gunshot (assuming anyone is in hearing range) will be discouraging, sorta like a rape whistle on steroids?...
And you're willing to count on that being the case in your particular bad day? And what makes you think that you'd even have time for that?

You may have only a few seconds to assess the situation and take decisive action. An assailant with a contact weapon seven yards away can be on top of you in about 1.5 seconds. If your assailant breaks off this attack upon seeing a gun, that's fine. If he doesn't you may have only a second or two in which to act to stop the threat.

And if you're really planning to waste precious time and ammunition on a warning shot, how are you going to be sure that the bullet you throw away doesn't hit something you don't want to shoot, like the neighbor's kid or the old lady at the dress shop on the next block? Are you going to waste even more time that you might not have trying to figure out a place to shoot your warning shot so it won't do any undesired damages?

If you want to play games and indulge your fantasies, it's your life.

GLOOB said:
...but the mere noise of a gunshot...
It's well documented that there are a number of physiological effects that manifest themselves in high stress situations, like a violent encounter. One such effect is called auditory exclusion. A person in a high stress violent encounter may very well not hear things like gun shots. People who have fired guns in self defense often report not hearing the shot(s). People who have been shot at during a violent conflict have reported not hearing the shot(s). Your assailant might not even be aware of your warning shot.
 
GLOOB said:
Yes, but supposing you did not want the attacker to die, and for some reason you believe the attack will stop if a shot if fired. Any shot. A warning shot into the ground, or a shot in his foot. I'm just curious to see the argument, is all.
Legally, there is no such thing as "shooting to wound". Shooting somebody at all IS deadly force, it matters none if you intended to just "wound" them or try and scare them off. One of the biggest problems arising from that is you saying; "Well I just wanted to wound him, not kill him". When in reality using a gun at all is deadly force. So if you were just trying to "wound" him than maybe you did not think that deadly force was needed or justified, which could very well come back to bite you because the force that you used IS deadly force and by all accounts a force that you yourself didn't feel was necessary when you only tried to "wound" him.
 
Yes, but supposing you did not want the attacker to die

That's easy. Don't shoot.

We train COM because under stress you will fall back on your training. When presented with the situation you may be calm and cool enough to do anything from talk your way out of it to shooting a vital organ and stopping the attack with one shot. But, you don't know that so you train your muscle memory to shoot at COM.

Conversely, when you are a hunter... you are trained to take your time and aim for a vital organ. What a difference it makes when your adversary can harm you!
 
How does one 'shoot to wound'? A shot to the arm may sever the brachial artery and the wound may be fatal. All successful gunshots are 'wounds'. They might be superficial, they may be lethal. Wounds are a sliding scale from 'hurt for a second, but I'm ok' to 'dead'. Pretty wide range there. Shooting to wound is shooting to stop, which may become kill. If you are going to pull the trigger, you better be prepared for the worst.
 
Posted by GLOOB: And to draw a weapon, a shot must be needed.

Also, some states have revised gun laws that makes it legal to draw a weapon without firing in certain situations. E.g., drawing a weapon is not necessarily the crime of brandishing.
I think you have greatly confused the meaning of the laws, old and new.

In most states, one may not lawfully draw a weapon unless one is in a situation in which the use of deadly force would be justified. However, the situation may change, and once the gun is drawn, firing may no longer be justified.

Just in case there is any question about it, if one draws a gun when it is not justified, firing it will NOT make the act lawful.

The changes to which you refer simply lower the threshold for justification for drawing the gun to some degree under certain circumstances.

Some state codes do address the crime of brandishing and some do not, but the real crime in most jurisdictions has to do with some degree of assault.

For the answer to the gist of your question--read fiddletown's replies.
 
Good point USAF.... there are two types of shots to take... the one that could kill (Or you hope) will kill and the one that should kill (Or you hope) will kill. There is no shooting to wound. The concept is silly.

But, the scary thing is I have been to 3 gun shot wounds, all close quarters (2 self inflicted) and none of them killed.
 
Some state codes do address the crime of brandishing and some do not
Michigan does have a law against brandishing, but the law is very unspecific about what that means. However, brandishing is seen as an offensive act, not a defensive act. If a guy comes running at you with a knife, and you pull your gun in defense, that's not brandishing. If you walk up to a guy and say: "hey, I saw you checking out my girlfriend", and then you pull your coat back to reveal a gun, that IS brandishing.

Gloob, as long as you're pulling your gun for a defensive act as opposed to an offensive act, I can't see how you'd be charged with brandishing even if you don't pull the trigger.

That being said, our CPL instructor made it very clear that if you ever pull your gun for whatever reason, call the police no matter what. If you don't call, and the other guy does, it's going to make you look really bad.
 
Yes, but supposing you did not want the attacker to die
Technically, no lawful defender WANTS the attacker to die. The only justification for shooting at another human (outside of military or LEO duties ... or in TX, of course :rolleyes:) is to stop an immediate violent attack. Neither the death, or continued life, of the attacker is of consideration once you are justified in firing your weapon. This isn't an execution -- death is not a desired outcome, just a possible side-effect of stopping the attack.

for some reason you believe the attack will stop if a shot if fired
As fiddletown so eloquently put it, why would you think that, and even if you did, if you are in grave enough fear for your life to be justified in firing a weapon, why are you risking your life so recklessly?

A warning shot into the ground
A smart shooter won't feel safe firing a shot at the ground on a firing range for the very real risk of ricochets. What in the world would make you think this is a safe thing to do in your neighborhood? And, as even a "warning shot" has to be carefully placed (always know your backstop and what's behind it) you're taking precious fractions of a second to establish a purposeful aim at some hoped-to-be safe piece of real estate while you SHOULD be training your weapon on the inbound attacker. Very foolish.

or a shot in his foot
O.k, now this is just Hollywood. It is well established that hitting a roughly 16"x24" human torso, while it is moving and you are moving and under stress -- in the very VERY few seconds you actually have to respond to a violent attack -- is right at the very top of the skill threshold that a well-trained shooter can be taught to reach. In other words, the best shooters, in real-world situations tend to be either just barely able, or tragically unable, to put effective shots on target in that frantic moment. Every ounce of your skill should be focused on trying to get AN effective hit (or two, three, etc. if by chance you can) onto the part of the attacker most likely to MAKE him stop. If your shooting is justified, you really don't have time for anything else.

Now you want someone to hit a roughly 4"x11" target attached to the end of a hinged, wildly flailing appendage, down near the ground? If that target is still, and you have time to line up your sights and make the hit, your justification for shooting can, and probably should, be questioned with deep scrutiny.
 
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I see no problems with brandishing, as long as #2 is kept firmly in mind. They are not contradictory in my mind either-- I can simutaneously wish to limit the lethal outcome while full intending to destroy what I draw upon. That is, of course, a very finite window and most situations are going to be black and white anyway; ie you'll know when you draw if you're commited to the shot.

While I would like to potentially shoot to wound, I doubt I will have either the luxury or time to aim for an arm or a leg if I am forced to draw. Yes, I can envision situations where both are present, but wouldn't expect them in sufficient quantitiy to revolve my tactics around the possibility, nor am I looking to induce any more margin of error into my shots.
 
Great points on the warning shots. I can still remember the first time that I fired on a Marine Corps rifle range at a night shoot. You could see the tracers do some pretty crazy stuff. Most people who have never watched a tracer don't have a good appreciation for what happens to your bullet after you fire. Some hit the dirt and stay there, some go straight up in the air, and some will ricochet of the ground and continue for a mile before stopping. You have no idea where that bullet is going so if you are going to shoot; shoot for the biggest target you have available to you on the threat's body to ensure that your bullet will end up where you want it. Trying to shoot someone in the leg is a great way to miss and you are responsible for a bullet that could be heading just about anywhere. If you don't have the stomach for putting a bullet into someone with the great possibility that they may die then you should not carry a gun.
 
I have no problem with shooting anyone I feel needs shooting and probably most every time I would shoot to stop/kill.
Actually the last time I could have legally shot someone, I didn't shoot. Not because I cared one bit about their life. I didn't shoot because I didn't feel like doing all the paperwork.


But, I can see there being reasons for "shooting to wound" or even firing a (safe) warning shot, not many but some.

Let's see......... here might be one.
I'm 73 and my fighting days are long behind me.
I will not allow myself to be hurt as long as I have the ability to defend myself with my carry gun.
But lets say I am feeling charitable one day when a big dumb, maybe drunken, kid decides he's going to teach the old man a lesson. Maybe I really don't want to shoot the kid but drunk or not I'm not going to allow him to hurt me.
So, maybe it's the the kids lucky day, because I just put a bullet in his leg. (yes, I could probably do that)

We both win. He didn't die and I didn't kill him.



.
 
I have a big problem with shooting anything that is alive, even trying to kill me since I know what the consequences will be, being the threat a someone's pet or a human.

Hopefully I will make the right decision if the time comes, and sincerely hope that will never come.
 
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