Shoot the Lead Out

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chiltech500

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Question, does anyone know about how many rounds, ballpark, you'd have to shoot in a handgun that leads up rather quickly.

Example, lets say a revolver starts leading after only 20-25 rounds, guestimate how many jacketed or plated to shoot to clean it up a bit. Lets say the leading wasn't heavy.

Thanks
 
Is not lead in a barrel an obstruction?

If so why would you not clean the barrel out with solvent/penetrating oil and a brass brush.

Sense when is clearing an obstruction by shooting it out a good practice?

BTW, plated bullets can also lead a bore.
 
There are two considerations here. First, find out why it's leading. It's not normal for a revolver to lead that fast. It's either lead of improper hardness, too soft or hard, improper sizing of lead bullets, too hot or not hot enough. Rarely is it the gun, unless the throats or off or something similar.

Second, there are two schools of thought on "shooting the lead out" of a barrel. Some swear by it others find it foolish. I am in this second camp. I believe it simply mashes it into the rifling, it does not clean out the barrel.

Many people see fouling stuck to remnants of leaf bullet lube and assume it to be leading when it's not. They shoot a few jacketed rounds and blow it out making them think it blew out the leading.
 
I have never had a plated bullet lead a barrel. If your barrel is leading up that fast, you need to fix that. Shooting the lead out does indeed work.
 
One of my revolvers leads up rather quickly, after about 75 rounds. It is no fun to clean out.
I have another one that looks like it is leading up and I have left it go until it becomes inaccurate. I can't even see the riflings anymore. I take it home and run a stiff rifle brush through it dry, 6 or 8 times and look down the muzzle with a flash light and the barrel is clean. I've found out with my particular problem that using bore cleaner on it from the start make the clean up take twice as long and uses a lot of patches.

I've found out that if your barrel is truly leaded up a dry brush won't take it out.

I consider a leaded barrel as to having to take a machinist pick after it to get it out.
I don't know what that crap is I'm brushing out of my barrel (I use Alox) but it sure comes out easy. I can't call that true leading. It's just a by product of shooting lead. I may be way off base here but that's what I put up with.

I don't believe in shooting it out with jacketed bullets because it has to iron it into the riflings to the point that you can't get it out at all.

But who knows, an awfull lot of people do it and we don't hear any complaining from it.

I agree that you need to find out why your barrel is leading if it really is and try to fix that first.
 
A barrel that's fouled with lead or copper or both will accumulate lead in the bore rather quickly as it seems to adhere to copper and existing lead fouling.

The best cure for leading is to clean the barrel of all fouling and subsequent cleaning after shooting lead will be much easier. The lead is probably the easiest to remove using a Lewis Lead Remover, brass brush wrapped with a bit of chore boy, or lead removing bore cleaners. Then remove the copper fouling using a bore cleaner with ammonia like Sweets 7.62.

Once well cleaned the bore should be easily cleaned of lead with a couple passes with a brass brush and a patch or two soaked in Hoppes followed by a dry patch. If using commercial cast bullets you're pretty much stuck with the bullet diameters the maker chooses. Load with the proper bullet hardness for the pressure your load will generate to avoid serious leading. Hard cast bullets will lead at low pressure and velocities of modest pressure cartridges like the .38 spl while not producing leading at higher pressure magnum loads. Another trick is to lightly coat commercial cast bullets with Lee's Liquid Alox to that they are adequately lubed.
 
I agree you should find out why your are leading the barrel in the first place. It seems to be a popular belief lead bullets will always lead up the barrel. Nothing can be further from the truth, leading is not normal. The few times I have leaded a barrel was my fault.

If you give us all the numbers we might be able to help you remove the source of the leading.

Cartridge?
Bullet type?
Bullet diameter?
Bullet hardness?
Bullet weight?
Type of lube?
Powder used?
Powder charge?
Type of gun?
Barrel length?
And anything else you can think of...

Where the barrel is leading, back by the receiver, up front by the muzzle or the entire barrel length?

I'm not trying to sidetrack your thread, only trying to help stop the problem before it occurs... :)
 
I can honestly say that "shooting the lead out" goes against everything I was taught about shooting a gun with a dirty or obstructed barrel. That said though, it seems an awful lot of folks do it, but it doesn't seem proper still.

For example, these are two picks of different barrels. This one only has 4 rounds through it,
attachment.php


I for sure and certain wouldn't want to run a jacketed load down it to "clean out the lead.

This one had over a hundred rounds at the time of the pic and got another 50-75 through it after the pic was taken, and it pretty much looked the same as it did in the pic, before I cleaned it out spotless,
attachment.php


Like mentioned, you need to find the cause, then work on the cure. Like mentioned above,
Where the barrel is leading, back by the receiver, up front by the muzzle or the entire barrel length?

These three things can narrow it down pretty quickly, but the other things can also contribute as well. In the top picture, I knew before I pulled the trigger on the first one of those loads, I would probably end up with what I got. I was using a softer alloy than I should have, and driving it faster than it could handle being driven. The size was perfect, the lube was good, just the alloy wasn't up to the task of holding the rifling as it was launched out at top end.

In the second one, I have everything matched up pretty good. Most of those were tumble lubed with Alox, but I have since started using a different lube and can get even more through it now, with even less left behind.

So it does make a difference and we can help you out with some more insight on what your using.
 
lead

Leading is not normal. I have a 1911 , Gold Cup; I have more than 60K lead bullets through it. It does not lead up....the rifling is crisp.
As to "shooting the lead out", the effect is that the jacketed bullet plates the lead into the barrel.
Pete
 
Thanks for all the replies and 41 Mag, those pics are really great, how did you do that?

If 41 Mags pics resemble leading then it's not what I seem to have. I have streaks that run along the rifling about 1/3 way out from bore and also an accumulation just around the start of the rifling running around the barrel.

I have never been sure what leading looks like, always wondered if my streaks were lube, for starters. Mag 41 pics are the clearest I have ever seen as an example. My streaks do not fully come out with swabs and CLP and I resort to a copper wire wrapped brush to remove everything. A traditional copper brush is not enough. Thus I just assumed I had leading.

Causation: have a couple of revolvers with cylinder sizing issues. My Ruger NMBH needs the cylinders reamed a couple thousandths because it's undersized and my S&W 625 has oversized cylinders. By reputation these pistols lead due to cylinder sizing and my cylinder measurements confirm the over/under sizing. I have .454 width bullets to try in the oversized cylinder pistol and this winter will have the NMBH cylinders reamed.

I have read others comments about "shooting the lead out" and thought it would be a quick fix for issues such as Bullseye pace rounds out of a 9mm with a BHN of 18 for example.

So nobody really lnows the answer to my question?
 
PS ArchAngel and others, I have done substantial research as I'm going on 15-20K lead rounds reloaded and shot through multiple guns this past year (just bought my first plated and jacketed rounds recently and have only shot 400 or so).

The biggest help to me would be more examples of leading like 41 Mags pics.
 
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Thanks tightgroup.

I carry cleaning supplies in my field bag, copper solvent, wire wrapped brush etc. but thought if shooting it out worked even a bit, it would be more fun than stopping and cleaning!
 
guestimate how many jacketed or plated to shoot to clean it up a bit.

The question has been around for a long time, I can never remember it ending well.

I will not shoot jacketed bullets after shooting lead bullets, I have two autos I shoot, both have two complete slides. One has three, it shoots 9mm and 30 Luger.

Just thinking about it? Is there a chance the jacket bullet will pass the lead in the barrel? I do not care, I will not shoot jacket bullets in a leaded barrel. Then there was the 'turn the jacketed bullet around and seat it in the case with the flat side out. Not me, I will shoot jacket bullets first, brush the barrel then shoot lead.

F. Guffey
 
Shooting the lead out is not the right way to clean it out!

Doing so can damage the forcing cone, K frames are very prone to this, but it can happen with any gun for that matter. Lead build up creates excessive pressures when a jacketed bullet passes over it, or rather impacts it, making it an obstruction. One example of this is what can happen to a K frame revolver with lead build up, fractured forcing cones. The lead should be properly removed by cleaning it with solvent and a bore brush, or another conventional method.

GS
 
Not having a problem with my K frame 38 at all, but thanks for the warning.

Just asking the question looking for a lazy and fun way LOL. Note the info above where I indicate carrying cleaning supplies in my shooting bag including Copper Cleaner (mixed with Hoppes #9), a copper wire wrapped brush, etc.

Oh well no shortcuts :) I really need some good pics of leading to be sure that's whats running along the rifling, but I'm guessing lube would clean out with an ordinary copper bore brush.
 
I shoot lead bullets and then shoot plated and go back and forth all the time in my revolvers with .38 special, .357 mag and .32 acp. I have never had a problem. I get home at the end of a range session and run a patch down the bore with CLP on it to see what comes out besides carbon and then visually inspect the bores with a bright light.

I have never seen anything like lead, copper, or whatever. So I quit worrying about it. If I got a sudden change in accuracy after 50 - 100 rounds I'd maybe have a look to see if I was getting fouling in the barrel. I pretty much shoot lead flat noses 95% of the time in .32 and lead wad cutters in .38 about 95% of the time and have *never* seen leading nor had to scrub it out/remove it from any of my guns - pistols or revolvers.

So, it's not "normal" to get leading. To get it after 25 rounds (for me with what I have experienced) I'd be looking for what was causing the leading like improperly sized bore/bullets, wrong hardness, driving lead bullets too hard, etc. It's not normal to get leading in my world.

VooDoo
 
So nobody really lnows the answer to my question?
lets say a revolver starts leading after only 20-25 rounds, guestimate how many jacketed or plated to shoot to clean it up a bit. Lets say the leading wasn't heavy.
Light leading will come out with a shot or two. I never recommend shooting plated or jacketed through a barrel with a lot of leading.

The better question would be to ask how to stop leading that happens so fast. At that rate if you tried to shoot a hundred rounds I bet they would be keyholing by then.

Although there seem to be some guns that are just going to lead, the vast majority of the time you can get a revolver to shoot with little to no leading after 100 rounds.

Slug the bore, measure the throats, and let us know what you find. What size, hardness or alloy are the bullets?
 
I am not worried about shooting the lead out with jacketed. It is something I do all the time.
The absolute worst case of leading I ever had was in this 32 S&W Long. (at least what I can recall). I bought a case of Aquila ammunition and within 50 rounds the ammunition would lead so heavily that I could not see any rifling!

ReducedM31serialnumber403754rightsi.jpg

I think we all have heard prognostications from Bullseye shooters about not following up cast bullets with jacketed or this will happen:

_end-of-the-world_2433119b_zpsef6eceda.jpg

But it is not so. I simply shoot enough jacketed bullets until the rifling comes visible again. This is a practice I regularly, if not always, do at the range. I am cheap, I shoot cheap cast bullets, typically 150 rounds per pistol. Then I follow up with jacketed. Could be FMJ’s, could be JHP’s, could be anything with a jacket. I am so cheap that I have reloaded and shot once fired 45 FMJ 230’s that I picked up in the dirt. It is surprising how often I find jacketed 230’s that only show rifling marks. Since my only use for the things is to blow lead out, they work!

With my revolvers I will finish a session with a cylinder of jacketed. Then I look down the barrel and see if there is any leading left. If so, another cylinder. Basically after 12 rounds the barrel is clear of any light leading. However, if the barrel is a total sewer pipe, it will take more.
 
I shoot a lot of lead out of my glock 19 stock barrel, as in 800rds in a few days. To be safe, I run chore boy on a bronze brush every 200-300 rds, and I do sometimes get lead dust but I don't size my boolits, just lube and shoot.
It just isn't time efficient to size all those boolits if they're run n gun fodder, it's faster to clean the bore.
Anyway, I've tried to load each magazine with one fmj round at the bottom of the mag, with no real difference. I've found the I round squishes the lead deeper into the grooves, and spreads it out, and does a poor job of cleaning it out. My evidence is that my bore is .357, my lead boolits range from .357 to .358, and commercial fmj rounds are .355, so you aren't scraping anything out as much as smoothing it flatter as it makes it's way through.
That's my experience with a Tupperware pistol and my revolver, except I never get leading with .358 boolits. It's a mirror polished barrel even after 300 shots, and one dry patch through the barrel.
 
I have found that finishing up a session by shooting a cylinder (or mag) full of gas checked bullets really cleans a bore.
 
IMHO there are FAR too many variables for a straight answer.

Also, I'm with jcwhit,

since when is clearing an obstruction by shooting it out a good practice?

That just doesn't seem like a good idea.
 
chiltech500,

THose pictures were taken using a borescope I had the use of for an afternoon. It would be great if I had one all the time but I simply don't have the money for it to simply sit on the shelf most of the year and only use it once in a while. It just so happened I had been to the range the day before and knew those barrels would be cool to take pictures of for reference later on.

As to the actual leading, the first pic is of my 41 Magnum the second of my 45 Colt, both Redhawk's with 7.5" barrels. With the 41, I had had some very nice results with some hollow pointed cast bullets in the 45 so I figured I would try that alloy out in the 41, I loaded them up incrementally from around 1000fps up to just over 1300 where I got the results you see above. Thing is I knew I would probably get it, I just didn't know where, so it was simply a more or less experiment to find out. Shooting over 20 rounds loaded to right at 1200'ish fps will do the same thing, but dropping them down to 1100+/- 50fps will let me shoot them all day long. But dropping them into that range with that particular bullet don't give the end result I was looking for.

With the 45 Colt, I use two or three different alloys depending on what bullets I have loaded. That particular weekend I had shot up a bunch of different loads mostly just punching holes in paper, and I had run alloy hardness from around a 8-9 up to just over 14. WHile that might not seem like a big variance, it really is considering that the softer alloy loads are running in the 1100fps range. That is why your seeing the little bit of lead laying along the sides of the lands. If I stick to alloys harder than 10bhn, it nearly always looks like a pristine cleaned barrel, well with a little soot from lube and powder. ;)

While I do not look for loads which are listed as "Ruger Only", I have, more or less, cut my loads down to using only Unique, HS-6, and AA-9, depending on just which alloy or bullet I am loading. The loads using the HS-6 were picked up from the excellent write up by John Linebaugh in his 45 Colt Dissolving the Myth. He listed the load at the bottom as one of his personal favorites and once I tried it, I knew why. There is also some great load data for the RCBS 270 SAA in a pdf file from Handloader Magazine written by Brian Pearce which listed a good number of loads for the Colt in different pressure ratings depending on what type of revolver you might have. Most, if not all of my loads, stay within the first and second tier listings in that data. I have simply found no reason to exceed this area as I get all of the penetration and expansion I could want or need. The trick however is keeping the loads matched to the alloy as seen in the pics. Besides if I want more power in a 45 I go to the 454....:D

As for your issues, yes you should address the size differences in your cylinders. This is a big time cause for leading if your squeezing the bullets down first in order to get out of the cylinder and then they have to expand to fit the groove diameter of your barrel. There is not much sealing going on there, and what remains is the results of that. Having the chamer mouths of your cylinder just a touch larger than your bore isn't AS big of an issue depending on just how big they actually are. If your shooting low end loads (700-900'ish fps) you will probably only see an accumulation around the forcing cone and slightly inside. This can also be addressed by having the forcing cone reamed to a slightly different taper. The other way around you will see plenty of lead stretched down your bore starting at the forcing cone and gradually moving down as the number of shots increase. If your having a lube issue this will usually manefest down towards the muzzle as the lube runs out or gives way to the friction of the barrel.

You are right in there are no real short cuts to getting the lead out. However it can be minimized by simply running the brush through on a regular interval of say 20-30 shots or when you first start to see the build up. When I was working up loads, I would shoot one or two cylinders, then open it up and slip a piece of white paper in against the frame so that I could use sunlight as I looked down the bore. This will light it up plenty good to see even the slightest differences along the bore. If I saw nothing that looked to me like a build up I went on ahead with some more rounds. I use this all the time and when I DO see something I don't like I start scrubbing. For the most part I use the bronze brush, and follow up with about a 1" square piece off Birchwood lead cloths and a tight fitting jag. I have to mention however these aren't supposed to be used on blued guns as they can remove the blueing. Even so using a little Hoppes mixed with some Kroil will get up and under most lead deposits pretty quickly and with the Chore Boy brass pad, most if not all will come out with little scrubbing. Even that in the 41 pictured above only took about 30 minutes from start to shiny squeeky clean.

Hope this helps.
 
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