Shooting a pistol one-handed

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mercop said:
The problem has been the emphasis on tools and toys instead of overall survival in violent scenarios....
Who's talking about tools and toys. I'm talking about training (and practice). My point is that there is really no good way to short cut adequate training. Jeff Cooper used to say: "It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully."

mercop said:
As far as I can tell people still respond to combat stress the same way they did 70 yrs ago....
Actually, we have a number of training techniques to help better prepare people for the stress of combat. Are you familiar with "stress inoculation"? You might be interested in reading On Combat by Lt. Col.Dave Grossman. He discusses various training methods now being used that have been demonstrated to improve performance under stress and minimize the effects of stress -- including force-on-force training.
 
I am familiar with Col Grossman. I am also familiar with stress inoculation both in reality and artificially induced in training. It is how I earn my living. As I said you can train to perform better but the chemical cocktail that is dumped during a situation is the same as it was 70 years ago.

I have seen far too many great shooters fall apart in dynamic scenarios and melt down when either their gun failed or the situation required something other than the gun. Task and tool fixation kills, move through the problem - George
 
the idea of this whole thread is to figure out the quickest and cheapest way to gain very basic proficiency.

Then you'll need to define "very basic proficiency."

Many people think that "just barely better than before" equals "as good as anyone else" when it clearly is not.

Ryan, since this is your thread and you keep shooting down any advice that runs contrary to your preconceived notions, perhaps you could define what a "very basic proficiency" is.

Then we could perhaps detail ways to achieve that low level of "proficiency."

.
 
How do you know it's a useful technique in many cases? You recently graduated from college. Do you have the length and depth of life experience to make that assessment?

I'm not going to pretend to have wisdom yet, or to know it all, but I can say with certainty that life experience is not the be-all and end-all to qualification and knowledge.

I'm thinking of one prof in particular I had in college. Calling this man "underqualified" is an insult to 12 year old fast food workers all over the world. I made a list of things that this guy believes, despite more years of experience in the material he was teaching (electrical and chemical engineering) than I've been alive:

1. Water in a vacuum system is a contaminant, because hydrogen is a very reactive chemical, and oxygen is a very reactive chemical, therefore water is very reactive as well. Whaaat? That was the first day of class, too. When I asked if that was maybe a gross oversimplification, given things like valence shells, he decided to say that vacuum itself, that the "vacuum force" (his words) pulls water apart into elemental hydrogen and oxygen. When he saw the look on my face, he just said "they write books about it."

Employers beware, there's an entire generation of engineers coming from Penn State who believe the above. I was literally the only person in the entire classroom who knew that ain't true.

Only thing I can figure is that he managed to completely misunderstand how... oh, I forget the name of the thingie, some kind of elemental analyzer. How that works. It operates by charging particles with electricity and then measuring their mass/charge ratio, and determining their elemental composition from that. An electrical charge will electrolyze a very small amount of water into elemental H2 and O2, so that's basically just an inherent flaw in the tool.

2. On the subject of particle accelerators, he said that they can add energy to particles by making them spin, "exactly like a gun does to a bullet. The spin on the bullet causes it to tumble." This was like the 3rd day of class, so I made the mistake of questioning Dr. Bozo again. He said he worked for the military doing ballistics research.

I was very, very, very tempted to say something like "****, no wonder we lost Vietnam!", except I would've been kicked out of the class, and he's just slightly too young to have been 18+ during Vietnam.

Still, that says a lot about the caliber of people the military hires for their research, and that at least explains why the early M-16 was such a clusterfluffle.

3. Possibly my favorite. This one was repeated on a weekly basis in class. "Photons are exactly the same thing as electrons. Photovoltaic cells work by capturing photons and converting them directly into electrons."

I don't think I need to comment further on that one. Once again, employers beware. Make sure that Penn State grads understand the difference between photons and electrons, and have a basic working knowledge of chemistry!

4. He said white light has its own particular wavelength, the same way that red is about 620 nm and blue is around 460 nm. Also, he says lasers are not monochromatic, and red He-Ne lasers emit both "white wavelength" light and infrared, and the infrared is solely responsible for a laser burning things.

The exact, specific phrase "the white wavelength" (singular, wavelength, no S) was brought up many times in classes.

At least 1 other person realized that was wrong on all counts, but only one. I fear for Generation Y or Z or whatever, if this is how much we paid attention in high school physics.

Let's see, that's my whole list. I think I had a few more, but they're not on here.

So hopefully you'll excuse me if there are times when I don't credit experience alone as much as I maybe should. Some people learn from their experiences, and even better, are able to share what they've learned with others (and we've got several such fine gentlemen chiming in on this thread). Others... well... got dropped as a baby. Or kicked.

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ryan... sorry about my comment. As things progressed I see dedication is not really an issue with you. I guess you meant dedicated to learning a two handed method...?

Don't worry about it, I do agree with you that someone who just doesn't care enough to get skilled, shouldn't carry a gun.

I mainly meant the level of dedication which causes some people to spend thousands of dollars on the latest and greatest training. Take an average single mom, living in a low-income housing project, desperately trying to scrape up the dough to get her and her children out of there. You can bet your butt that she will be absolutely dedicated to whatever it takes to see her children survive. But proficiency with a handgun (if she hasn't been deluded into thinking that guns are bad) will be only a small part of that whole mindset. And the money allocated for training will be even smaller.

If there are any shortcuts, easier methods, cheaper ways, etc., they should be known.

In my case, it's mainly money. I can't afford to practice like I want to (and I've complained about the weather already :p). I do have an okay store of ammo and components that were purchased at pre-election prices, but I'm hesitant to shoot them up. I'm just glad I've got a couple thousand rounds of trigger time already. If I were just starting now, it'd be terrible, ammo prices being what they are.

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I have seen far too many great shooters fall apart in dynamic scenarios and melt down when either their gun failed or the situation required something other than the gun. Task and tool fixation kills, move through the problem

I think maybe one of the reasons why StL got me better initial results is because it's so much simpler. Raise arm, look at target through the gun, BANG! Compared to sight shooting with Weaver. Raise arm, tension both arms appropriately, look at front sight, line up rear sight and target with front sight, pull trigger to the rear slowly, oops it's going to the left, oops it's going to the right, oops it's going dow-BANG!

And at least in my case, just shooting a gun for the first couple times was fairly stressful. It was definitely in the forefront of my mind, that one mistake can cost someone their life.

It definitely takes training, practice, etc., to get to the point where most two-handed techniques feel "natural" enough to do quickly and proficiently under stress.

But something as simple as "look at bad guy, point at bad guy, clench hand"? Anyone can do that! Can it really be that simple? Some people apparently say no...
 
RyanM said:
I'm not going to pretend to have wisdom yet, or to know it all, but I can say with certainty that life experience is not the be-all and end-all to qualification and knowledge.
It's true that some folks manage to get older without learning anything. But on balance, I'll take experience, maturity and wisdom over youthful enthusiasm.
 
Too many points to cover individually, Good thinking Ryan.

With intelligent application and no shortcuts StL works.
 
Nice thread. Went to the range today and the thought of shooting one handed didn't even cross my mind. Next time I go Ill try it.
 
In my range regimen, I practice Single hand shooting, both strong and weak, as well as supported strong and weak.

I practice aim-shooting, and point shooting. I like to be prepared for all eventualities.

I find that (for me) I do best in "Draw and unload" with one hand point shooting. At 10 yards, I can put 17 bullets on the silhouette as fast as I can pull the trigger. They're far from "the perfect shot", but if I see someone running at me with a knife, it's my instinct to pull out the gun and put the bullet on target as quick as possible.

If I know I have time to take aim, it will be done two handed in a strong foot back stance, weak foot forward, knee slightly bent, holding the gun weaver-style.

I think you should try out each way to do it next time you are at the range. Find out which way is the fastest for you (with still hitting the target) and go with that.
 
Mercop
As far as I can tell people still respond to combat stress the same way they did 70 yrs ago.

The problem has been the emphasis on tools and toys instead of overall survival in violent scenarios. You can have tools and toys shipped to your house, you cannot do that with training and experience. - George
Now that is spot on too.

I am always amused when people start injecting things like "in todays world". There is really nothing new under the sun. You can study any era in human conflict; murder, insanity, depravity - fighting and survival. At the heart of the matter nothing has changed at all.
 
Ya gotta love internet experts.

They defend general statements while ignoring that one size doesn't fit all out here in the real world, ignoring thousands of people with special needs requiring modifications of sacred internet gun technique laws.

Would I try to shoot my snub with both hands in a SD situation?

Absolutely.

Can I shoot it more accurately at the range with one hand?

Yep

Someone educate the internet gun experts as to how that could be true? ;)
 
I like these discussions because of the sometimes refreshing and thought provoking opinions that are expressed before the thread sinks into the usual opinionated "if you don't think what I think your stupid" mode. All new ideas are good, it's just a matter of selecting ideas worth investigating. Without new ideas we get no change, and it is a certain fact that many of the "X did it this way in '06 so it must be right" opinions are ossified.

The unsurmountable problem is that there is no ultimate proof to be provided, in training, in life, on the range, or in a firefight, of the value for anyone's opinion however green or tested they may be. If you need to use a firearm in anger the ultimate proof of success is that you either live or die - and whether you live or die depends on a thousand variables over most of which you have no control. And, just because you lived this time, there is no promise the same ideas will work next time.

Learn techniques, learn when to use them, practice them to the highest level of perfection you can reach - then hope that when the big day comes the Sun is behind you.
 
Learn techniques, learn when to use them, practice them to the highest level of perfection you can reach - then hope that when the big day comes the Sun is behind you.

That says it pretty well. They're all tools in the toolbox, and real skill is not only having a well-stocked box, but knowing what tool to use, why, when, and how.

I suppose it's ultimately up to each individual shooter what's the "best" first technique for them.
 
I find that (for me) I do best in "Draw and unload" with one hand point shooting. At 10 yards, I can put 17 bullets on the silhouette as fast as I can pull the trigger. They're far from "the perfect shot", but if I see someone running at me with a knife, it's my instinct to pull out the gun and put the bullet on target as quick as possible.

Just how fast is that all important first shot on target ? Is the first shot also the first hit? Or are they separate?

If I know I have time to take aim, it will be done two handed in a strong foot back stance, weak foot forward, knee slightly bent, holding the gun weaver-style.

It's not hard, with proper technique, to see sights at speed.

Even if you are faster firing the first shot without the sights, would you prefer a fast miss in .90, or a center hit in 1.00 ?
 
It's not hard, with proper technique, to see sights at speed.

Always assuming, of course, that you have sufficient light, that you are actually in a position where you can look for a sight picture, that the muzzle-blast from your opponents weapon does not semi-stun you and that your competition actually allows you to raise your gun forward and up into a classic stance. Apart from those possible difficulties your technique should work fine.
 
Always assuming, of course, that you have sufficient light,

What, you never heard of night sights ?

that you are actually in a position where you can look for a sight picture, that the muzzle-blast from your opponents weapon does not semi-stun you and that your competition actually allows you to raise your gun forward and up into a classic stance.

The Poster I was responding to had specified 10 yds. You have plenty of room to raise your gun if your opponent is 10 yds away. Likewise, his muzzle blast at 10 yds shouldn't stun you a whole helluva lot. At least, not if you're intently focused on ending his threat to you.

Your points may be semi-valid within arms reach, but that, of course, wasn't the context of my comments.

.
 
I practiced one-handed and Iso to start with and always did better with two hands. I shot faster and more accurately, right from the start. As for operator errors, I made many when I started shooting and more again when I did IDPA. Stress has a way of bringing the dumb out in oneself. However, I never once experience an error caused by using two hands.

Hand seperation sounds like a bad grip. The problem can likely be fixed by dry-firing and practicing the grip; techniques which require no money at all. You don't need a trip to Thunder Ranch to learn how to grip a pistol properly. The information can be found for free on the internet (available via the Library even in my small town) or in a number of books.
 
If you have not done so I implore you to do this very simple drill. Take a quality airsoft pistol in a good holster, wear it under you normal concealment garment. Have someone charge you from about 7 yards with a training knife.

During this past weekends course I would guess that I watched around 60 different force on force drills ranging from the one above to one where the shooter came home to a power outage in his home to find a burglar inside. Some things we saw over and over.

Nobody could remember what "stance" they used because they were moving while drawing.

Lots of pistols drawn with concealment garments wrapped around the grips preventing firing.

Messed up draw forcing the student to resort to open hand combatives to allow them to draw again.

A bad draw resulting in a dropped gun that caused and AD when the gun hit the deck, the round struck an innocent bystander in the femoral artery.

No matter what the range the vast majority of rounds hit the chest, arms and hands. During the two day class there were only two head shots. Both were a result of the attacker charging in with head down.

No shooters reported using the sights. Several reported seeing the sights after they we able to create to distance. This makes sense because the gun has to be between your eyes and the threat for you to see the sights. Lots of rounds were landed as the gun was on the way up. These were usually the first rounds on target.

If the gun malfunctions people have a tendency to stand still while they attempt to clear it, almost like they think they can call time out. Why? Because every other time in their life malfunction drills were done standing still.

During most scenarios the first 2-3 rounds were with the strong hand only.- George
 
doc540 wrote

Would I try to shoot my snub with both hands in a SD situation?

Absolutely.

Can I shoot it more accurately at the range with one hand?

Yep

Someone educate the internet gun experts as to how that could be true?

It's true because you probably practice more with it, and no one is denying that could be the case. But did you read the original post, or just jump in on the last page?

The original poster - to paraphrase - said "I want to practice shooting with one hand with 50 rounds per year because it is easier to learn to shoot with one hand."

Bottom line, if anything someone can learn to shoot easier with two hands.

I actually agree with what George (mercop) is saying, i.e. that if you must choose between one-hand and two-hand, choose one-hand practice. That's solidly logical seeing as the probability of having just one hand available in a gunfight is higher than having both.

But George's logical line of thought, and the fact that you practice with one hand frequently (not very remarkable actually), are just plain unrelated to the original poster's weird original train of thought.
 
I was one of the students in mercop's Combative Pistol class this past weekend. I've never done much practice on one handed shooting. Just enough to know that I can hit my target with either hand.

I saw guys with extensive, quality training getting stuck in place and "killed" while they went for two hands on their pistol.

I saw that with just a little practice, drawing then "point shooting" strong hand only at a moving attacker all while moving yourself will produce effective hits on target.

Anyone can believe me or not but I saw it with my own eyes and I did it myself.

It works.
 
Being able to shoot, and hit, with one hand is an important skill. I don't think anyone is agruing that.

The OP originally stated that one hand is better than two hands:

Pull too hard with your support hand, or push too hard with your strong hand, and the gun tilts low and to the left. Just using one hand totally eliminates that. ..... there is still room for error which can't happen with only one hand.

Further, he stated that it would take longer to learn how to manage recoil significantly better with two hands:

Someone who doesn't have the luxury of putting a couple hundred rounds downrange a month may never learn how to manage recoil with two hands more than marginally better than they can with just one.

This clearly demonstrates a clear misunderstanding about how to shoot a handgun.

It's easier to get hits using two hands, especially when distance and/or multiple targets are involved. Add a compressed time frame to either one and using two hands becomes more important.

Is shooting with one hand sometimes necessary? Of course, and it behooves the serious shooter to develop one handed shooting skills.

But is one hand "better" than using two? No.
 
It depends where they hit, now, doesn't it. The calf flesh wound won't have as much effect as a center punched sternum.

At extremely close range, almost any technique will work as far as getting hits somewhere on target. If that is the sole focus of someone's shooting efforts, then great.
 
A round in the shin/ankle will create structural damage and bring the head down to where you are shooting COM allowing for a better chance of a central nervous system round.

Combative Anatomy- the study of stopping an attacker as fast as possible, not killing them eventually.
 
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