towboat_er
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I think trading it in on another gun is the right thing to do.
Should a suicide gun stay in the family?
- Thread starter Mr. Doughnut
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Loosedhorse
member
I thought of something that may be if interest. I was looking for analogies as to whether it matters materially (as opposed to emotionally) that the gun was used in a suicide.
I recalled that in real estate law in some states, the fact that a death occurred on the property must be disclosed, as it is felt to have a material effect on the home's worth. In CA, that requirement goes away 3 years after the death. In MA, there is no such requirement at all.
So, split decision, as we might expect.
I recalled that in real estate law in some states, the fact that a death occurred on the property must be disclosed, as it is felt to have a material effect on the home's worth. In CA, that requirement goes away 3 years after the death. In MA, there is no such requirement at all.
So, split decision, as we might expect.
henschman
Member
The nephew should decide what to do with the gun because it is now his property. He should make his decision based on reason, rather than superstition or mysticism. However, part of being rational is to take into account the potential actions/reactions of others who are a part of his life, who may be under the influence of superstition/mysticism. Not telling the irrational mom and sister that he is keeping the gun would probably be wise. There is no need to lie to them -- he should just not talk about that subject around them. Eventually they will forget about it.
Mike1234567
member
You'll receive widely variagated responses on this contraversial topic. I can only give my personal opinion.
As to whose wishes should be honored; IMHO... the living. I would have it destroyed.
As to whose wishes should be honored; IMHO... the living. I would have it destroyed.
Last edited:
SwissArmyDad
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I hear what you are saying here, and I appreciate the perspective, sir. On your last note, though, I have to disagree. In my experience some people will never forget such things...
Has anyone in your family committed or attempted suicide? Unfortunately, two in my family have. One attempted with a knife, and one committed with a handgun. both were nasty, bloody, horrible events. I doubt anyone involved has or will ever forget anything about either event, and as such, I think a decision about the gun needs to err on the side of caution with this possible "frame of mind" taken into consideration.
I hope you take this as a respectful retort. Again, I see a lot of truth in your statement.
9teenEleven
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While a gun is just a gun, those saying that it's just an inanimate object miss the point. It's a symbol and a reminder. It should be gone.
doubleh
Member
Lots of interesting replies that give you insight into the a person's thought processes.
If I were the nephew that received the gun I would consider it mine to with as I please. If I wished to keep it and shoot it I would. I would also treat it as a closed subject with my family and never mention it. If I were questioned about it I would answer that I had taken care of it and didn't want to discuss it.
If I were the nephew that received the gun I would consider it mine to with as I please. If I wished to keep it and shoot it I would. I would also treat it as a closed subject with my family and never mention it. If I were questioned about it I would answer that I had taken care of it and didn't want to discuss it.
MachIVshooter
Member
What happens to the gun is up to it's current owner. Unless he is living with the people who want it destroyed, I see no conflict here. They don't have to see it and "be reminded" by it".
My father was murdered, and though I never did bother to find out what the firearm was, if it was a quality one, I'd have no problem owning it. Just a gun, a tool. Of course, if I didn't like it, I'd sell it and buy something I did like with the proceeds.
I don't begrudge someone who feels that way about a suicide/homicide firearm if they have a dislike for it because it reminds them of a horrible event. But no more can they expect me to understand their feelings that I don't share. In that regard, I wouldn't expect them to be OK with possessing it, but would also feel that they have no business in dictating what happens to it beyond not being in their presence.
No, it's just irrational. They are your feelings and you're entitled to them, but don't try to make it something it isn't, like "Karma". Material things have no soul and no will, so they cannot possess intentions or other qualities of living beings. Being upset with the tool used in a homicide/suicide is even more ridiculous than begrudging a predatory animal for doing what it does.
My father was murdered, and though I never did bother to find out what the firearm was, if it was a quality one, I'd have no problem owning it. Just a gun, a tool. Of course, if I didn't like it, I'd sell it and buy something I did like with the proceeds.
I don't begrudge someone who feels that way about a suicide/homicide firearm if they have a dislike for it because it reminds them of a horrible event. But no more can they expect me to understand their feelings that I don't share. In that regard, I wouldn't expect them to be OK with possessing it, but would also feel that they have no business in dictating what happens to it beyond not being in their presence.
No, it's just irrational. They are your feelings and you're entitled to them, but don't try to make it something it isn't, like "Karma". Material things have no soul and no will, so they cannot possess intentions or other qualities of living beings. Being upset with the tool used in a homicide/suicide is even more ridiculous than begrudging a predatory animal for doing what it does.
TCB in TN
Member
My maternal grandfather shot himself. The pistol is still in the family. It was his favorite gun, and right now one of my uncles has it. His son will get it eventually (the grandson closet to my grandfather). None of us blame the gun. There are far more good memories associated with that pc of steel than bad.
My mother didn't want to keep it herself, but said that if I wanted it she would lay claim to it for me. (She is the only girl with 4 brothers and usually gets her way.) I said then and every time the subject has come up since that if at any time he didn't want it, I do.
I don't expect others to feel as we do, but don't think there is anything wrong if you do.
My mother didn't want to keep it herself, but said that if I wanted it she would lay claim to it for me. (She is the only girl with 4 brothers and usually gets her way.) I said then and every time the subject has come up since that if at any time he didn't want it, I do.
I don't expect others to feel as we do, but don't think there is anything wrong if you do.
Carl N. Brown
Member
Ernest Hemingway committed suicide with one of his shotguns.
Should the shotgun have been destroyed?
Should the shotgun have gone as a momento to someone who enjoyed sport shooting with Papa?
In other words, should the shotgun have been associated with the bad time or the good times?
My point is, some folks will disassociate the suicide gun from the choice of the suicide to use it as the instrument to end their life. To some others, it would be indeliably marked with blood and tragedy.
Here you have a hypothetical where some family members see the gun as neutral or associated with past good times with the deceased. Other family members see the gun as tainted with blood guilt and a reminder of the suicide act.
My recommendation for the feelings of all concerned would be to have the gun sold anonymously on consignment through a dealer to someone aware of the gun only as a neutral object.
I can understand a person not involved in shooting sports deciding to use a gun to commit suicide since a gun is supposed to be an efficient means (although a local society woman who shot herself while facing a slow death due to a terminal disease, survived in worse shape). If the happy memories of family or friends would include sport shooting, there are other often more effective means of suicide, and a suicide should not defecate on remembrance of survivors' happy times by choosing a means associated with the happy times (say deliberately drowning at a favorite vacation spot). And of course, suicide is usually the wrong answer to a problem that will pass in time, anyway.
I had a gun used in an attempted suicide by a family member returned to me by the police. I disconnected the means from the act. What was important was determining and dealing with the motivation of the family member, not the means. Suicide is often rational only to the despondent person. Attaching blood guilt to an object is like voodoo thinking, but if the emotion is strong even though irrational, it should be considered.
Should the shotgun have been destroyed?
Should the shotgun have gone as a momento to someone who enjoyed sport shooting with Papa?
In other words, should the shotgun have been associated with the bad time or the good times?
My point is, some folks will disassociate the suicide gun from the choice of the suicide to use it as the instrument to end their life. To some others, it would be indeliably marked with blood and tragedy.
Here you have a hypothetical where some family members see the gun as neutral or associated with past good times with the deceased. Other family members see the gun as tainted with blood guilt and a reminder of the suicide act.
My recommendation for the feelings of all concerned would be to have the gun sold anonymously on consignment through a dealer to someone aware of the gun only as a neutral object.
I can understand a person not involved in shooting sports deciding to use a gun to commit suicide since a gun is supposed to be an efficient means (although a local society woman who shot herself while facing a slow death due to a terminal disease, survived in worse shape). If the happy memories of family or friends would include sport shooting, there are other often more effective means of suicide, and a suicide should not defecate on remembrance of survivors' happy times by choosing a means associated with the happy times (say deliberately drowning at a favorite vacation spot). And of course, suicide is usually the wrong answer to a problem that will pass in time, anyway.
I had a gun used in an attempted suicide by a family member returned to me by the police. I disconnected the means from the act. What was important was determining and dealing with the motivation of the family member, not the means. Suicide is often rational only to the despondent person. Attaching blood guilt to an object is like voodoo thinking, but if the emotion is strong even though irrational, it should be considered.
WinThePennant
Member
FWIW, I once owned a K98 (1942). It was well-worn, and obviously had seen a lot of action in WWII. I can't explain it, but I had a really bad feeling whenever I touched/held the gun. I sold it ASAP.
I'm not sure how using the suicide weapon for IDPA honors somebody...I can't make that connection in my mind. Clean the gun, sell it, and move on with your life. Don't let this tool cause a rift in your family. Do you also hang onto the shell casing and put it on the mantel as a reminder of this awful event? No, that would be twisted.
Oh, and I got a good laugh out of post #2...ask a question that you can distort either answer to fit your agenda, win win
Oh, and I got a good laugh out of post #2...ask a question that you can distort either answer to fit your agenda, win win
The gun now belongs to one person, not the family. Their relationship with each of them is at issue.
Secrets should never be kept. It doesn't work and unless person that would be hurt by the secret getting out tacitly ignores the facts as a way of dealing with the issue it is more harmful than simply agreeing to disagree.
This particular gun is not relevant to any propensity to suicide in a family.
I would suggest having the gun rebuilt and refinished completely so that it is and yet isn't the same gun. The original is "destroyed" while still being in the family.
Secrets should never be kept. It doesn't work and unless person that would be hurt by the secret getting out tacitly ignores the facts as a way of dealing with the issue it is more harmful than simply agreeing to disagree.
This particular gun is not relevant to any propensity to suicide in a family.
I would suggest having the gun rebuilt and refinished completely so that it is and yet isn't the same gun. The original is "destroyed" while still being in the family.
Dnaltrop
Member
Attach no blame to the Gun itself...
How many of us have a C&R weapon right now that could have been carried on guard duty and only fired in practice... or just as likely used to execute 20 bound captives in one of the thousands of unknown graves brought about by the atrocities of war.
However, as the gun is an immediate and present reminder of the suicide of someone directly connected to you, I'd have difficulty handling the weapon without the attached baggage.
Either trade it... Or store it away from the awareness of family members who would feel the old wounds most keenly, at least until they have passed to the great beyond themselves.
How many of us have a C&R weapon right now that could have been carried on guard duty and only fired in practice... or just as likely used to execute 20 bound captives in one of the thousands of unknown graves brought about by the atrocities of war.
However, as the gun is an immediate and present reminder of the suicide of someone directly connected to you, I'd have difficulty handling the weapon without the attached baggage.
Either trade it... Or store it away from the awareness of family members who would feel the old wounds most keenly, at least until they have passed to the great beyond themselves.
Sounds tricky, and yet, maybe not.
Breaking down the facts:
1) The father of the deceased retained possession for several years after the event.
2) The mother and sister were not successful in having it removed or destroyed. So either they didn't speak up, or the father, having possession, refused to destroy it.
3) Father transfers possession to another family member. (Again, years later.)
4) The new owner, the younger cousin, wants to keep it.
IMO, the new owner decides the final disposition. Period. If he is convinced by the mother and sister to dispose of it, then that is a correct outcome. If he decides to keep it, I would also say that is a correct outcome. He will have to weigh the wishes of others and his own wishes.
As others have said, it is an inanimate object, possessing no will or emotion of it's own. It is only in the mind of the holder (or beholder).
I would never recommend keeping it a secret, although tactfulness about the subject seems appropriate. Having it refinished and cosmetically altered would probably go a long way in terms of distancing the mental connection of the event from the item.
Ultimately (and unfortunately), nothing will ever return what was truly lost... A son, a brother, a cousin... Even throwing the 1911 into the sun can't change that. Condolences to the family.
M2 Carbine
member
My Father shot himself when I was a young teen.
I don't know what happened to the gun.
We gun people are fond of saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" and that is true.
But yet some of the same people get caught up in placing some sort of responsibility on the gun as if it has a personality or free will.
It's just a metal and wood thing that's doing what people built it to do, launch bullets or shot.
I put no importance on the gun at all.
If I had the gun, it would be in my safe with all the others.
I don't know what happened to the gun.
We gun people are fond of saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" and that is true.
But yet some of the same people get caught up in placing some sort of responsibility on the gun as if it has a personality or free will.
It's just a metal and wood thing that's doing what people built it to do, launch bullets or shot.
I put no importance on the gun at all.
If I had the gun, it would be in my safe with all the others.
SSN Vet
Member
I find it interesting that many, many folks around this forum readily associate good and happy memories with firearms that have a family history, and advise how the historical provenance associated a firearm can increase it's value.
Yet, the OP discusses the unhappy and bad memories surrounding a pistol used in a suicide and many reply how that shouldn't affect anything.
Neither happy or sad memories affect the characteristics of the gun. It is what it is.
The issue here is people's feelings. And very often people have feelings associated with physical objects.... usually due to memories associated with them.
My two cents (worth what you paid for them) apply the Golden Rule to your decision and move on.
Yet, the OP discusses the unhappy and bad memories surrounding a pistol used in a suicide and many reply how that shouldn't affect anything.
Neither happy or sad memories affect the characteristics of the gun. It is what it is.
The issue here is people's feelings. And very often people have feelings associated with physical objects.... usually due to memories associated with them.
My two cents (worth what you paid for them) apply the Golden Rule to your decision and move on.
Owen Sparks
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I think the best thing would be for him to sell it and buy something else that will not upset the family. Ask him how much he would take for it.
The deceased's motherand the deceased's sister want the gun "gone" Seems like this guy needs to evaluate how much he really wants to hang onto this particular gun at the risk of damaging his relationship with the deceased's mother and sister. This is something only he can work out. We are all not privy to the family dynamics and history here.
Inebriated
Member
This is just my opinion, so take it for what it's worth...
It's a piece of steel. Some fancy machining, a few springs, some even fancier machining in that short tube on the front, and some grips. It can't have, and never will have bad "mojo."
It's like buying a Mosin or K98, and finding a tally on the stock. You know exactly what that tally is for, but you keep it for it's historical significance.
That's how I see this. Keep the gun. It's family history. Now how you do that, I don't know. When a family conflicts, things are difficult, but if the gun CAN stay in the family, I think it SHOULD stay in the family.
Just my $.02.
It's a piece of steel. Some fancy machining, a few springs, some even fancier machining in that short tube on the front, and some grips. It can't have, and never will have bad "mojo."
It's like buying a Mosin or K98, and finding a tally on the stock. You know exactly what that tally is for, but you keep it for it's historical significance.
That's how I see this. Keep the gun. It's family history. Now how you do that, I don't know. When a family conflicts, things are difficult, but if the gun CAN stay in the family, I think it SHOULD stay in the family.
Just my $.02.
Carl N. Brown
Member
In this case, though, the gun becomes what it reminds people of. Some are reminded of happy memories, others are reminded of the death. To them, the issue is the memories. Some want to keep the good memories. Some want rid of the bad memory.
Sensai
Member
First things first, clean the danged gun! "(the pistol still has organic residue on it from the suicide)" I think that I'd object to a gun with "organic residue" on it being in my house. That's just gross! After it's clean, then it's just another gun. If you like it, keep it. If not then sell or trade it. It's a tool.
zxcvbob
Member
The gun rightfully belongs to the young cousin now; he can do with it as he pleases.
Destroying the gun would be stupid. But out of respect for the family I would advise him to clean up the gun and sell it; use the money to buy a nice revolver or Hi-Power or Beretta or something else non-1911ish -- and some flowers for Momma. He can buy another 1911 in a few years; there's lots of 'em out there.
Destroying the gun would be stupid. But out of respect for the family I would advise him to clean up the gun and sell it; use the money to buy a nice revolver or Hi-Power or Beretta or something else non-1911ish -- and some flowers for Momma. He can buy another 1911 in a few years; there's lots of 'em out there.
Inebriated
Member
zxcvbob said:
I would think that anyone calling for a gun to be destroyed wouldn't know the difference between an Hi-Power or Beretta and a 1911. A gun is a gun to that type of person.
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