Sig Saur P220...Ouch!

[PabloJ]

When my father passed away a few years ago, one of the guns he left me was a Sig Saur P220 .45ACP. It's obviously a fine gun, but it's got the worst double action...ummm...action of any auto pistol I've ever tried. Not only that, the hammer drop bites my thumb almost every time I use it. Drives me nuts.

Does anyone know if the action can be markedly improved? And is it safe to be carried cocked? (I know people carry Glocks cocked and ready to go, though I've never been comfortable with the idea.)

The gun appears brand new and has three magazines. It also has the magazine release on the bottom. I've heard these guns are very accurate. They're also reliable, but then many autos today are. Durable, and ditto. It's magazine capacity is unremarkable at eight shots; weight and balance good. But my S&W 645 has a better double action by far, and that irks me.

What can you guys tell me about the Sig? Are there any spring kits for it?

Thanks!

I would be willing to bet the DA trigger pull is better than on P-64, Soviet Nagant revolver or police Sig P6. I would sell the gun and buy G21 instead. Better trigger, more capacity and at least as reliable as the P220.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

This explains the mistaken understanding you have been operating under.

When the slide of a Glock is retracted and released, the striker is left in a partially cocked position. The first part of the trigger pull, after the slack is taken up, completes the rearward travel of the striker to the "fully cocked" position before it is released. The Glock striker is never in a position to be released until the trigger completes that action


That would be dependent on which trigger you are comparing it to. It isn't a matter of how much pressure is required...that has more to do with the quality of the trigger...it is a matter of the amount of travel after takeup and the functions being performed, usually by the trigger bar, during that travel

Exactly.

Confederate, this is the point that rcmodel was trying to make earlier in the thread. The trigger finishes cocking and releases the striker to fire on a Glock. It isn't "fully cocked" when you wrack the slide and chamber a round. If for some reason the striker mechanism failed and the striker was allowed to slam forward without pulling the trigger, it probably wouldn't fire as the striker wouldn't have enough tension or travel distance to ignite the primer.

Not all striker guns work this way. Some are fully cocked when the slide is cycled. For this reason, I could see a legitimate argument that Glocks are safer than striker fired guns that do rest in the fully cocked position, but it would be a hollow argument and pointless, since it's not like we have guns just randomly firing all the time from failed mechanisms.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I would be willing to bet the DA trigger pull is better than on P-64, Soviet Nagant revolver or police Sig P6. I would sell the gun and buy G21 instead. Better trigger, more capacity and at least as reliable as the P220.

Personally I'd never sell an heirloom my father who passed on left me to buy a Glock, or any other gun really. And since the OP expresses no desire to sell the gun..........

 

[PabloJ]

Personally I'd never sell an heirloom my father who passed on left me to buy a Glock, or any other gun really. And since the OP expresses no desire to sell the gun..........

Pictures and jewelry should serve as heirlooms. I would dump that P220 for G21 no problemo. It is more combat worthy firearm ie. a better weapon to have.

 

[Plastikosmd]

^ let me finish that for you, "in my opinion."

(a "combat ready weapon" is a better weapon to have)

Not in my opinion, tho I prefer my old bp guns over any current or past "combat ready weapon" lol

 

[CoalTrain49]

The DA trigger on a Sig will be much heavier than a Glock. I would compare it to a DA/SA revolver. I have a P-220R and I had an early German gun. Both DA triggers were about the same. My P-220R which is about 6 years old has a good SA trigger but there is considerable take up. I don't shoot it in DA mode, I either rack a round into battery or if it already has a round in battery I cock the hammer which isn't a huge deal. DA/SA guns are falling out of favor because of the heavy DA trigger pull.

Some people like safeties, I don't. The P-220 is a very safe gun if you carry it the way it was meant to be carried, decocked with a round in battery.

I have a feeling there isn't anything wrong with your gun, you just don't like DA triggers. I can understand that as some people don't have a lot of strength in their hands and fingers. I worked all my life with my hands and have good grip strength so it doesn't bother me.

 

[Girodin]

Pictures and jewelry should serve as heirlooms. I would dump that P220 for G21 no problemo. It is more combat worthy firearm ie. a better weapon to have.

I wouldn't get rid of any gun my dad gave me. Its easy enough to just to buy a $400-500 glock.

And for what its worth a G21 is way down the list of .45 ACP guns I'd buy. And I say that as someone who owns a fair number of glocks.

 

[tomrkba]

Bruce Gray can make it right for you.

http://grayguns.com

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I wouldn't get rid of any gun my dad gave me. Its easy enough to just to buy a $400-500 glock.

Yeah, I couldn't even respond to that comment after reading it. Anyway.

 

[rcmodel]

Bruce Gray can make it right for you.

Somehow, I suspect no one can make it right for him!

rc

 

[Jim Watson]

Robert Burke has a good reputation and works a bit cheaper than Bruce Gray.
http://thesigarmorer.com/services

I have a very nice GGI P226 and a Teddy Jacobson P220 but they are pretty much home defense guns. I prefer 1911 for competition and even a well tuned DA/SA could not compete.

If your grip puts you in line to be whacked by the decocking lever, I don't know an easy cure.

 

[Confederate]

You do know how to drop a hammer on a 220 don't you? it is done with the decocker on the side.. the hammer should play no role in you decocking it.... or are you talking of your thumb getting hung up in the decocker lever? The correct way to decock a sig 220 is to activate the decocker only and let the hammer fall freely- it was designed to do that.

Yep, I know how to use the decocker (or hammer drop). Holding the gun in my right hand, I use my right thumb to depress the decocker. It isn't a major problem...just an annoyance.

And RC is right it- you refusing to use correct terminoligy does not mean you are right on the glock cocking issue.

Is there a way to cock the Glock without firing it? One has to agree on what "cock" means...how it's defined and who defines it. Some gun writers say that "pistol" means an auto and not a revolver. But so far that's quite a way from being a consensus. Is my little Jennings J-22 cocked when I pull the slide back and let go? The firing pin spring is under tension and all that's required is to pull the trigger, releasing the pin and allowing the spring to propel it into the primer of the chambered round to fire. I realize the Glock mechanism is a bit more complex, but still, again, can it be cocked without firing? If yes, then I concede. But once a Glock is ready to fire, I consider it cocked.

As far as hard to cock- do you have small girly hands or short fingers that make the leverage hard?

Nope. No girly hands here. I'm comfortable shooting a Beretta 92 or my S&W 659. And I have no problem cocking the Sig. Only decocking.

 

[Confederate]

Personally I'd never sell an heirloom my father who passed on left me to buy a Glock, or any other gun really. And since the OP expresses no desire to sell the gun...

Actually, I like the gun better than my dad did. I can always decock the gun with my left hand or just a jab with my thumb's middle joint. That's not insurmountable. But I couldn't fire it double action with any accuracy...even point blank. If using it for home defense, I'd have to cock the gun first.

 

[rcmodel]

Is my little Jennings J-22 cocked when I pull the slide back and let go?

Yes, it is cocked.

But a Glock isn't fully cocked when loaded like your Jennings, until you finish cocking it by pulling the trigger and finish cocking it.

A loaded Glock is closer to your SIG with the rebounding hammer down, then your Jennings with a round in the chamber and the striker Fully Cocked ready to fire.



rc

 

[9mmepiphany]

But once a Glock is ready to fire, I consider it cocked.

Using that definition, a DA/SA semi-auto pistol is cocked when the hammer is down on a loaded chamber. It is ready to fire, all you have to do is pull the trigger through the DA trigger stroke. What racking the slide on a Glock does is more akin to placing a Colt SAA hammer on it's half cock notch...it still needs to be fully cocked before it can be fired

BTW, the SIG Decocker isn't the same thing as a "Hammer Drop."

A hammer dropping lever/safety would lower a cocked hammer to fully rest against the back of the slide/firing pin. The SIG decocker lowers the hammer in such a way that it never comes into contact with the firing pin.

That is just another case you your use of incorrect terminology causing additional confusion

 

[Zaydok Allen]

A hammer dropping lever/safety would lower a cocked hammer to fully rest against the back of the slide/firing pin. The SIG decocker lowers the hammer in such a way that it never comes into contact with the firing pin.

That is just another case you your use of incorrect terminology causing additional confusion

Like a Beretta 92, correct? The safety/hammer drop rotates the firing pin linkage out of alignment with the firing pin and brings the hammer down definitively on the back of the slide and there is no rebounding hammer. Though I believe the G models are referred to as decocker only guns.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

One has to agree on what "cock" means...how it's defined and who defines it.

And with that, I give up trying to explain this. A few of us have said repeatedly that a Glock is not fully cocked when a round is chambered. It isn't something that allows for interpretation or variance in definitions. It's a simple fact.

Good luck. It sounds like Gray's Guns can help you sort it out.

 

[MIL-DOT]

OK, so the OP doesn't like the DA trigger pull, doesn't want to trade the pistol in on something else (I wouldn't either), and doesn't want to carry/keep the pistol with the hammer cocked ( and rightfully so,IMO).
So, just chamber a round, then drop the hammer, and when you want/need to pull the trigger, just pull the hammer back. How hard is that?
And, in the incredibly unlikely event you need the pistol in an instant and don't have the time or ability to cock the hammer, it will STILL fire that first shot, and then fire more easily in single action from there.
This ain't really that big a deal. Get it fixed, or just deal with it.
(though I would also consider the above advice about giving it a thorough cleaning and doing some dry firing).

 

[highlander 5]

Wolff has main springs for the different models of SIG pistols. Go on you tube and watch videos on how to change out the mainspring you might be able to replace it yourself.

 

[Confederate]

And with that, I give up trying to explain this. A few of us have said repeatedly that a Glock is not fully cocked when a round is chambered. It isn't something that allows for interpretation or variance in definitions. It's a simple fact.

Actually, I understand exactly what you're saying and I'm really not trying to be difficult. I even go so far as accepting what you say. As an editor by profession (retired), I try to understand definitions and who determines them. According to the dictionary, the word means one thing ("to set the trigger of a firearm back for firing" or "to set the trigger back in preparation of firing"), but in the shooting world it means something else.

If a fiction writer said of a character: "He cocked the Glock nine-millimeter and pointed it at the intruder," would this be correct? Or would it be: "He half-cocked the Glock nine-millimeter and pointed it at the intruder." It may sound trite, but editors and journalists sit around debating these things for hours. (It's like the time we used the word "kudos" as a singular (which is correct), but the chief editor made new use it as a plural because it sounded wrong to use it right, so we used it wrong ago it would sound right. Does that make sense? If I were on a firing line and everyone had Glocks, and I said, "Insert your magazines and cock your weapons," what would they do? It wasn't long ago when the terms "auto" and "automatic" were ambiguous. The pistol wasn't an auto, it was a "semi-auto." But then someone would refer to a military rifle and say, "That's not an auto, it's a "full auto." Whatever we did we got letters correcting us.

So terms have to be agreed upon. Jeff Cooper was very dogmatic with his terms. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers, so I'll concede the argument. But I'm more puzzled by these terms than I was.

Thanks for your recommendations, though. I doubt I'll do anything to the gun, and if I venture into trouble, I'll just pull the hammer back and keep my finger of the trigger!

Cheers. In the meantime, I'll try not to go off half-cocked!

 

[rcmodel]

If a fiction writer said of a character: "He cocked the Glock nine-millimeter and pointed it at the intruder," would this be correct

No, it wouldn't be correct.

You can load a Glock.
You can draw and point a loaded Glock.

But you can't take the safety off, as is sometimes written.
Anymore then you can cock one when it is already loaded.

Other then by pulling the trigger to release the trigger safety and finish cocking it and causing it to fire.

rc

 

[Walt Sherrill]

If I were on a firing line and everyone had Glocks, and I said, "Insert your magazines and cock your weapons," what would they do?

They'd probably holster their weapons, turn around, and ask, "what in hell are you talking about?"

Even if Glocks were true double-action weapons, using the traditional definition of double action-- they're not -- you wouldn't cock the gun before starting a course of fire...

In the case of the Glock you can't fully cock the weapon without also firing it. This is true of most of the newer striker-fired semi-autos; it's true of some hammer-fired semi-autos as well. With these guns, the trigger stroke that completes the cocking process also releases the striker or hammer.

The striker or hammer spring, however, has already been partially-tensioned by slide movement when the first round was chambered or when the last shot was fired.

 

[cc-hangfire]

I've thoroughly enjoyed the striker-fired cocking discussion.

But in this thread about the P220 - which I do not have - I'm curious as to how it's DA trigger pull weight compares to the Berreta 92's DA. I have a SIG P226 and a Berreta 96, & without going home and dry firing both, I'd say they were approximately the same trigger weight. Is the P220 substantially different?

 

[1KPerDay]

My German P220 is a lot heavier than my Beretta 92FS. I put a D spring in the beretta but even before that the 220 was heavier. When I first got it it was pretty rough and stiff but a cleaning/lube and shooting has smoothed it out. However it's very shootable. And the SA pull is great.

10 lbs 13 oz DA, 4 lbs 3 oz SA.

Beretta with D spring is 8 lbs 8 oz DA, 5 lbs 2 oz SA.

 

[4v50 Gary]

It could be as simple as having the lockwork disassembled and cleaned.