Sig Saur P220...Ouch!

[Confederate]

I'm curious as to how its DA trigger pull weight compares to the Berreta 92's DA.

I can only speak about my P220. And the Beretta's DA pull is far superior. The Sig's accuracy and its obvious quality make it very desirable to some, but if someone offered to swap me a mint S&W 4506, I'd take it in a heartbeat. I don't agree a lot with Jeff Cooper, but one thing I do agree on is the cock and lock safety. If the Sig had one of these, it would be great as one often doesn't have the time to cock the hammer in an emergency!

Your P226 might have a better trigger than mine, so you'll have to try it yourself. I don't think there are any spring kits available for the Sig, but from what I've heard, if the Sig had adjustable sights it would be a decent target grade pistol. That can't be said about the Smiths.

 

[Confederate]

It could be as simple as having the lockwork disassembled and cleaned.

Okay, I'll try that. If I could get mine down to ten pounds, I'd be thrilled. I'm a revolver guy, so I'm used to double action shooting; however, the Sig is by far the worst DA pull I've ever seen. Thanks!

 

[funklord12]

Why don't you sell it and purchase one of the P220 SAO versions?

 

[9mmepiphany]

I don't agree a lot with Jeff Cooper, but one thing I do agree on is the cock and lock safety. If the Sig had one of these, it would be great as one often doesn't have the time to cock the hammer in an emergency!

Interesting that in the same sentence you agree and disagree with him.

In reference to the above bolded statement.

Something Cooper stated and which has been proven time and time again is that there is no time difference, from the holster to the first accurate shot, regardless of the action type

 

[Confederate]

Why don't you sell it and purchase one of the P220 SAO versions?

I'd love to, but I live in Maryland. I can't even swap a gun without first taking a 6-hour, $100 competency course because of recent laws passed in Annapolis. The laws, of course, are designed to keep citizens who might be tempted to buy a gun for protection from doing so. These people want to ban guns in the worst way, and even tho I have other handguns, I can't buy or trade any handguns without taking the competency course. The thing is, these same people would be mortified if one were to draft legislation requiring voters to take a competency course and exam before being allowed to vote -- and voting isn't even a constitutional right.

Long answer, but unless I move, the sad fact is that I'm stuck with the guns I have. But I can live with it. The only thing I can say is, don't ever move to this state. Remember what happened in Baltimore a few months ago? The whole bloody state is filled with demented, brain dead Bolsheviks. I'd swap that P220 in a second if I could, but I wouldn't sell it.

Eventually, I'd like to swap one of my 686s for one of the new 66s, but with a few Ruger Security-Sixes, even that's not something I need.

 

[Confederate]

Interesting that in the same sentence you agree and disagree with him. ... Something Cooper stated and which has been proven time and time again is that there is no time difference, from the holster to the first accurate shot, regardless of the action type

Well, actually, it's not all that interesting. If you read what I said, there are things Cooper said I agree with, and other things I don't. Some people don't like cock and lock and some do. I do. In fact, one of the cool things about my stainless Taurus PT92 AR 9mm is that it has both a hammer drop and cock and lock safety. Cooper saw the advantages of that, and if they'd put a [half] cock and locked safety on Glocks and other striker-fired pistols, I think it would have prevented many accidental discharges.

On other issues, such as his caliber conclusions, I'm not in agreement with. But on the cock and lock safety, I agree. That's not too strange, is it?

 

[eldon519]

While it might be risky and inadvisable, I don't think it is actually that out there to carry a cocked SIG. If I'm not mistaken, it has an internal firing pin block. The original 1911 design was not intended to include a manual safety until the army required it. While the Glock is not fully cocked, guns like the XD and M&P are more or less fully cocked. Now newer guns like the SIG P320 have done away with the trigger tab and feature short-takeup, short-reset triggers.

If I were going to carry it cocked, for sure it would be in a holster that covered the trigger. I'd holster it in DA and then manually cock the hammer in the holster. That said, I still think it's risky and inadvisable, but it isn't the craziest idea I've ever heard.

 

[9mmepiphany]

You've fail to address:

Something Cooper stated and which has been proven time and time again is that there is no time difference, from the holster to the first accurate shot, regardless of the action type

...which was in response to your post:

one often doesn't have the time to cock the hammer in an emergency!

...meaning, there is no time penalty between trigger/hammer types to the first accurate shot...assuming correct presentation technique

 

[Jim Watson]

There was a guy here who shot a Sig Sauer in USPSA matches.
He could not be bothered to learn the DA/SA transition, but always thumb cocked to start the stage. It simplified his trigger management, but it was sure slow.

 

[Girodin]

...meaning, there is no time penalty between trigger/hammer types to the first accurate shot...assuming correct presentation technique

Are you saying there is no difference in time to first shot between simply drawing and firing a the first DA shot of a sig 220 and drawing, cocking the hammer, and firing the same gun. I'm not arguing one way or anther just trying to make sure I'm understanding what's being said. Or are you saying there is no difference between the first shot of a DA shot, a striker fired shot, a SA fired shot given the proper technique to shooting each?

If it is as fast, is it fair to question whether it can be done as reliably. I have never attempted to operate any of my DA/SA guns like a SA revolver. I generally have come to prefer striker fired guns but have just recently taken some renewed interest in DA/SA guns and the various philosophies in how to best operate them.

 

[PabloJ]

I can only speak about my P220. And the Beretta's DA pull is far superior. The Sig's accuracy and its obvious quality make it very desirable to some, but if someone offered to swap me a mint S&W 4506, I'd take it in a heartbeat. I don't agree a lot with Jeff Cooper, but one thing I do agree on is the cock and lock safety. If the Sig had one of these, it would be great as one often doesn't have the time to cock the hammer in an emergency!

Your P226 might have a better trigger than mine, so you'll have to try it yourself. I don't think there are any spring kits available for the Sig, but from what I've heard, if the Sig had adjustable sights it would be a decent target grade pistol. That can't be said about the Smiths.

If one wants nice duty size carry .45ACP they could always look for used striker fired S&W 99. It had nicely founded slide with de-cocker just like smaller 9x19 version. The trigger was good and magazine capacity was nine cartridges if I recall correctly. I would rather have that then the P220.

 

[Rule3]

In this whole convoluted thread No one mentioned or I did not see it, the DA trigger pull on the 220 is 10lbs, the SA is 4.4 lbs It was designed that way,

If you can not get used to that function you need to try another gun, Would you leave a revolver sitting cocked in SA mode??

There is no comparison of a hammer fired pistol to a striker fired, as rc and many others stated. They are different animals.

Keeping a Sig 220 ( I have several) cocked in SA is just downright NOT SAFE it is the same as having a 1911 cocked with no thumb or grip safety. The Sig has no safety so the slightest pull it goes off.

Yes the DA is heavy, as mentioned it is no different than a SW DA/SA revolver only once the first shot is fired it stays in single action until decocked, which the proper way to return it to carry or safe condition, not lowering the hammer with your thumb like a true SA 1911 or Browning HP or whatever.

A 1911 can be left in a cocked and locked condition it has 2 safety's, the BHP only has a thumb safety.

If you go back to the Glock the dongle on the trigger is "their safe action" the gun will not fire if dropped and slammed on the floor, that little hing on the trigger must be pulled back,

 

[9mmepiphany]

Are you saying there is no difference in time to first shot between simply drawing and firing a the first DA shot of a sig 220 and drawing, cocking the hammer, and firing the same gun. I'm not arguing one way or anther just trying to make sure I'm understanding what's being said. Or are you saying there is no difference between the first shot of a DA shot, a striker fired shot, a SA fired shot given the proper technique to shooting each?

It is the latter.

You can draw a 1) SAO pistol and press the trigger, 2) a DA/SA or DAO and press through the DA trigger stroke, or 3) a SAA, cock the hammer and press the trigger all in the same amount of time.

That is between presenting it from the holster, bringing it up, seeing the sights (or not), and completing the trigger press...because it takes more time to bring the gun to bear than to operate the action

If it is as fast, is it fair to question whether it can be done as reliably. I have never attempted to operate any of my DA/SA guns like a SA revolver. I generally have come to prefer striker fired guns but have just recently taken some renewed interest in DA/SA guns and the various philosophies in how to best operate them.

Yes, it is just as reliable...you just have to understand the technique

As a matter of fact, I often use the initial DA trigger stroke of my DA/SA SIG 226 to help clients overcome their initial tendency to snatch at the trigger on the first shot

Take a look at the link in my signature titled "DA Trigger Management" for an article on the correct technique

 

[CoalTrain49]

DA trigger isn't a bad thing. It allows one to acquire solid finger/trigger contact (for lack of a better term) without having a ND on a 4 lb trigger. Sort of a safety in a stressful situation. To me it is similar to the thumb on a 1911 safety until one makes the decision to fire. A finger on a 4 lb trigger doesn't instill a lot of confidence, in me anyway. I know some are going to say if you clear your holster you should already have made the decision to fire but I'm just a taking a second look at the situation anyway, maybe just a split second.

 

[Girodin]

I don't know that you should have decided to fire before you clear the holster but Ike's if get probably shouldn't go on the trigger unless one is intending to shoot.

 

[JR47]

I'll second the clean and lube suggestion. That Sig has been sitting for decades. The greases and oils that lubed it quite possibly have evaporated and gummed up.

Other than a way to sneak in insulting comments, this entire discussion about what constitutes cocked triggers has simply used up band-width.

You can keep the gun, and learn to use it, or you can get a different gun. Even in Maryland. I do believe that the course is a one-time thing, not required per gun. Take it now, or you'll pay more later to take it when you REALLY need another gun.

After 57 years, I left Maryland. I just couldn't pretend to myself that it was worth staying there when I retired. Taxes are too high, crime is too high, and the stink from D.C. pervades everything. I lived in Laurel.

I moved here, and my property taxes are one-eighth of my brothers, who is still in Laurel. The auto insurance dropped by 1/3, income taxes are 1/4 of Maryland, crime is lower, the people are friendlier, and I can buy any kind of gun I want. As often as I want. AND, a CCW permit took a few hours. My renewal to a picture ID took a week from come in, and come get it, with a week-end in between.

Vote with your feet. I did, and let my elected reps know what, and why, I did it.

 

[Confederate]

No one mentioned or I did not see it, the DA trigger pull on the 220 is 10lbs, the SA is 4.4 lbs.

Yes, it was mentioned, but my DA trigger is quite a bit heavier than ten pounds. Someone recommended that I dry fire the Sig repeatedly in the hope it might loosen up. (This has worked on a number of Ruger revolvers I've owned.) Others say I should give the gun a thorough cleaning. I intend on trying both.

If you can not get used to that function you need to try another gun, Would you leave a revolver sitting cocked in SA mode??

No. (See previous post.) But then, I wouldn't carry a Glock with a round in the chamber. Putting a safety on a trigger is like having nothing on a trigger. That doesn't mean I hate the Glock. I shot better with that pistol than any other automatic I've ever tried. I just wish it had a good safety.

Keeping a Sig 220 (I have several) cocked in SA is just downright NOT SAFE it is the same as having a 1911 cocked with no thumb or grip safety. The Sig has no safety so the slightest pull it goes off.

Yes, the possibility of accidentally hitting the trigger, where the safety is located on the Glock, is simply too great. The advantage of the S&W, Sig, Beretta and other hammer-fired guns is that they have considerable take-up in their actions before the gun is fired. The Glocks do not. Any pressure on the trigger will fire the gun. So as unsafe as the hammer-fired guns are, which are more likely to accidentally discharge? (I've noticed on one TV show that there's a cop who always pulls the slide of his automatic back and releases it when he goes into a dangerous situation. Would I rather do that or disengage my cock and lock .45 or my 9mm Taurus? Or...would I prefer a hammer-fired auto with a round in the chamber?)

If you go back to the Glock the dongle on the trigger is "their safe action" the gun will not fire if dropped and slammed on the floor, that little hing on the trigger must be pulled back.

But if you take a military Beretta, Sig P226 or a S&W 5906, and cock it on a live round, will it go off if dropped or slammed on the floor? I don't believe so; however, if you take up the slack in the action and continue to depress the trigger, yes, it will fire. But the same is true of the Glock, which has almost no slack.

I'm not a cop, but if I had to clear a house or go in harm's way, I believe I'd cock my Sig and then go in. And if I had a cock and lock safety, I would disengage it.

 

[JDR]

.. I would dump that P220 for G21 no problemo. It is more combat worthy firearm ie. a better weapon to have.

I actually traded off a nice P220 in favor of my Gen4 Glock 21, it just works better for me. Every other Sig I own or have owned has been excellent.

 

[Confederate]

I'll second the clean and lube suggestion.

That's true. And your post is outstanding. I'd move tomorrow if I could, but my wife and I have family here and it's complicated.

Other than a way to sneak in insulting comments, this entire discussion about what constitutes cocked triggers has simply used up band-width.

That was never my intention, but it has been very informative to me and to others. The intent of this board is discussion and many points raised have been valid on all sides.

You can keep the gun, and learn to use it, or you can get a different gun. Even in Maryland. I do believe that the course is a one-time thing, not required per gun. Take it now, or you'll pay more later to take it when you REALLY need another gun.

Except that I have chronic pain issues stemming from a 2001 bicycle accident that makes it impossible for me to take such courses. I'm not an invalid, but I'm not able to do the things I once did. Of course Maryland makes no stipulation for people like me, nor do they make any kind of allowance for people who already have handguns.

After 57 years, I left Maryland. I just couldn't pretend to myself that it was worth staying there when I retired. Taxes are too high, crime is too high, and the stink from D.C. pervades everything. I lived in Laurel.

Yep, I have to pay $35 per car, per two years, to park in front of my own house, for which I pay outrageous taxes. Everything requires a permit, no one gets a CCW and any gun infraction is a felony. Even if you're charged, the police can come to your home and confiscate your guns (which you most likely will never see again). And as hideous as D.C. is, the stench of Baltimore is worse. The city leaders not only are ignorant, lacking in common sense, they're stupid and lack integrity, virtue, honesty and character. I'd actually prefer the local mafia than the current city leaders.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm not a cop, but if I had to clear a house or go in harm's way, I believe I'd cock my Sig and then go in. And if I had a cock and lock safety, I would disengage it.

I was a cop and I've cleared many houses and building. I highly recommend against doing something like that alone.

Having said that, I should also add that attempting something like that with either a cocked SIG or with a safety disengaged (Condition 0) goes beyond folly and borders on the reckless.

In the case of a pistol capable of Condition 1 carry, it takes no extra time to disengage the thumb safety than it does to moved your trigger finger from it's "safe index" spot to the trigger

 

[Confederate]

I was a cop and I've cleared many houses and buildings. I highly recommend against doing something like that alone.

I strongly concur. Even doing it as part of a team is dangerous. I've read STREET SURVIVAL a number of times, and though it's old I recommend it to anyone who is, or is thinking about becoming, a cop.

Having said that, I should also add that attempting something like that with either a cocked SIG or with a safety disengaged (Condition 0) goes beyond folly and borders on the reckless.

On this point I respectfully differ. Cops with Glocks are not considered reckless when they go into these situations with their weapons half-cocked. As stated earlier, a person with a S&W 5906/3906 or Beretta or Sig Saur has far more takeup in their triggers than a person with a "half-cocked" Glock. And researchers have found that cops often forget to disengage their safeties in such situations. So if clearing a house with other cops, what condition should their gun be in? (I've experimented with my autos and with a number of Glocks and the force required to discharge them. I found that the Glocks discharge much easier than the others. The trigger safety had no effect. In fact, because there was no take-up in the trigger, Glocks were easier to discharge. I tried tripping them all and my S&Ws were the most difficult to trip. The Glocks were the easiest. So my question is, why is it reckless to go into harm's way with cocked hammers and not reckless to go with Glocks that are more susceptible to discharging? Again, I ask this in all sincerity and respect and am not trying to ruffle any feathers.

In the case of a pistol capable of Condition 1 carry, it takes no extra time to disengage the thumb safety than it does to moved your trigger finger from it's "safe index" spot to the trigger.

So when does one disengage the safety? In a house clearing, do those with DA autos go in with safeties off but their weapons decocked? The Sigs and other DA autos are specifically designed to be difficult to trip.

 

[JTQ]

Typically the trigger travel and weight of trigger pull on a single action gun or with the SA of a DA/SA gun is shorter and lighter than the safe action of the various striker fired guns.

Do I consider a DA/SA gun in DA, or a single action gun with the safety engaged safer than a Glock or similar striker fired gun, yes. Would I walk around with a 1911 in Condition 0 or a DA/SA gun with the hammer cocked, no. It's not the same as a Glock safe action.

 

[9mmepiphany]

And researchers have found that cops often forget to disengage their safeties in such situations. So if clearing a house with other cops, what condition should their gun be in?

If cop are having a hard time remembering to disengage their thumb safety on their guns, they shouldn't be carrying those guns.

I they are carrying a DA/SA gun with a thumb safety engaged, they don't understand the correct usage of that thumb safety.

When clearing a house, DA/SA pistols should have their hammers lower to the starting point of their DA stroke and their safeties (if any) off. Their trigger fingers are on the frame at their "safe/index point"

A pistol capable of Condition 1 carry, should have their thumb safeties engaged. The thumb safety comes off only after a target has been positively identified and the decision to shoot has been made. If there is no need to shoot, the safety goes back on as the finger comes off the trigger and returns to it's index point on the frame. The safety is always engaged when moving between positions, even if shots have been fired.

(I've experimented with my autos and with a number of Glocks and the force required to discharge them. I found that the Glocks discharge much easier than the others. The trigger safety had no effect. In fact, because there was no take-up in the trigger, Glocks were easier to discharge. I tried tripping them all and my S&Ws were the most difficult to trip. The Glocks were the easiest.

You seem to be comparing the triggers of decocked DA/SA pistols to a striker fired Glock...that is an apples to oranges comparison

For your example, a like kind comparison, would be a cocked DA/SA pistol and the partially cocked Glock

BTW: If there is no takeup on your Glock trigger, it isn't set to factory spec. Of the last 6-7 Glocks I've fired, not only was there quite a bit of takeup, but there was a "hump" in the travel before letoff that had to be overcome

So my question is, why is it reckless to go into harm's way with cocked hammers and not reckless to go with Glocks that are more susceptible to discharging?

As stated above, because you're confused concerning your perception of the pressure on the trigger required for like condition triggers