Sights or Target, Where to Focus?

[Brian@ITC]

I haven't read all of the posts but here is my opinion...

Focus on your target because odds are you aren't going to see your sights, nor should you in about 90% of confrontations. Only if you are moving away from you threat should you attempt to see your sights. And, should you be moving away from your threat and not closing the distance?

You are going to natually focus on the target and not the threat. At least that is what we have found in our training.

If you are within 10 feet of the threat(s) sticking your gun out where you can see your sights is foolish because you are sticking it out there where it can be taken away, or your arms cut and hands shot. Not a good game plan in our book.

We believe that you would be better served by having an intuitive aiming device such as a Crimson Trace laser grip where you will see the dot on the target. If the dot isn't on the target, don't shoot. It is that simple. And, more than likely you should be shooting from a retention format, again, dot on target, shoot.

 

[BullfrogKen]

I go back to - see what you need to see to make the shot.

Some need to see more, some less. Those with plently of adequate training with a good sight picture need to see less, and those with less than adequate training on a good sight picture need to see more.


You decide which camp you fall into.

 

[Zoogster]

mortablunt said:

It was an airsoft one. I learned that I haven't practiced nearly enough. I'd probably get myself killed if I ever ended up needing to use armed self defense.

While that is a healthier perspective than being overconfident and cocky, the truth is that you are unlikely to face a coordinated attack from 3 criminals that continue to advance even as one or two of them are being hit with gunfire.


The majority of scenarios involve situations where your average citizen with no formal training that can put bullets where they want on a single target do just fine. Their mindset has more to do with how things turn out than their gun skills beyond a point. So greater firearm skill has diminishing returns.


Now if you are a clerk at a high profile cash business at night, well then a gunfight with multiple robbers is quite a real possibility, but in most other lines of work, even law enforcement, coordinated attacks against you by multiple people is rare. Attacks by multiple individuals not dissuaded by gunfire that continue to advance and attack after being shot at is very rare.
Most criminals break off the attack and try to split as soon as rounds start flying, sometimes firing in the direction of the defender as they do.
These are people motivated by financial gain that typically didn't intend to put their life on the line and so become startled when they realize it is on the line (that doesn't mean they wouldn't selfishly kill you if they had control of the situation, a good percent of compliant victims are murdered anyways.) They are not people fighting for a cause.
In fact such coordinated attacks not dissuaded by gunfire are rare enough that when they do happen even against law enforcement they are studied and mentioned for years after.

That is why even the little old lady with arthritis and poor eyesight that carries her gun, and still practices hitting the target at the range on occasion can typically handle herself just fine, and can be well served by situational awareness and a pistol.


So additional skill is nice, and is what is being discussed in the thread, but don't have unrealistic expectations of your typical criminal encounter because people train for such things.
(Now a typical person's skills do degrade under the adrenaline dump of a life and death situation, so someone able to hit a small target without that stress may only be able to hit a larger target under the same stress, so just barely proficient on a calm formal range shouldn't be what someone is content with either.)

 

[Blackstone]

Do we mean focus as in properly physically focusing on the front sight, or paying the most attention to it? If I shoot with both eyes open, I can't physically focus on the front sight without considerably effort. It also results in me seeing double of the rear sight and target.

What I normally do is I focus my attention on the front sight, but I think physically I'm looking past it at the target. My depth of field seems to be good enough that I get a sharp sight picture AND target.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...If I shoot with both eyes open, I can't physically focus on the front sight without considerably effort. It also results in me seeing double of the rear sight and target....

Sorry, but that's not necessarily true. I shoot with both eyes open, and I do focus on the front sight -- with no real effort and without seeing anything double. But I'm reasonably strongly right eye dominant. I know that some people could have some difficulty if they are only weakly one eye dominant or if they are cross dominant and aren't taught the ways to adjust.

 

[Loosedhorse]

I know that some people could have some difficulty if they are only weakly one eye dominant

You got it. I am nearly co-dominant (not close to as useful as being ambidextrous would be! ), and for me there is no avoiding "physiological diplopia" at the target plane if both eyes are fixed at the front sight. That perception of diplopia is greatly diminished in those with a strongly dominant eye (either one).

 

[Matthew Temkin]

I first learned to shoot my revolver with one eye closed.
I later trained myself to use the sights with both eyes open.
It really was not all that hard to do.
Only at long ranges--starting at about 25 yards--do I revert back to one eye closed.
Old age, perhaps?

 

[Al Thompson]

Old age, perhaps?

Matthew, suspect so. If I want great groups past 15 yards, it's left eye closed. I'm still good to go on 8 inch steel plates at 25 yards though.

If you are within 10 feet of the threat

That's probably a retention position shot. That's the beauty of the #2 position in the four count draw.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Gomez8136#p/u/2/ftC6MXFGxCg

 

[mavracer]

I later trained myself to use the sights with both eyes open.
It really was not all that hard to do.
Only at long ranges--starting at about 25 yards--do I revert back to one eye closed.
Old age, perhaps?

No, you probably just have a more dominate eye. Some people like me and LH are nearly co-dominate (luckily mine did come with a good dose of ambidexterity) It is nearly impossible for me to focus on a sight picture with both eyes open.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

I just finished training a LEO seminar with IALEFI in Jackson, NJ
One course, given by a Sgt. with the Bend, Oregon PD, was in close combat shooting.
However, one of the drills was having you and your partner pair off and shoot at a target which had a box about 2 inches square as the aiming point.
We started at 3 yards and worked our way out to 25 yards backing up about 3 yards per relay.
Only 3 shots were just out--meaning touching the line just a tad to the right
Since the holes looked as if they were from a 9mm--my partner was shooting a .40--it was deemed to be me.
At the longer distances I was sometimes using one eye and other times using two eyes.
In any case, such drills are a wonderful confidence builder.
The way I taught myself to shoot with both eyes open was starting at about 7 yards.
Any closer things seemed to be cross eyed, but after awhile I could focus on the sight from 3 feet to over 15 yards.

 

[exavid]

For me a lot depends on the situation. At the range I shoot at 7yds point and shoot for practice. Beyond that I use the front sight. Plenty of practice will bring the gun up with very quick sight alignment, once that's done the front sight is the tool I use. The target doesn't have to be in very sharp focus. It works well for me I can get target acquisition pretty quickly. I want that front sight in focus as I pull the trigger to make sure it stays on target. I don't know if that's the best possible way to shoot but it's worked well for me for a lot of years and I probably am too ingrained at this point to do it any other way.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

With the Applegate one or two handed point shooting method I find the front sight tends to "get in the way" past 7 yards or so, which turns the shot into a flash type sight picture/front sight only focus.
Which is a good thing, of course.
When doing either point or aimed fire I look at the spot that I want to hit and bring the gun to the target.
The head never moves and you just, "See what you need to see" to make the shot.

 

[Blackstone]

Sorry, but that's not necessarily true. I shoot with both eyes open, and I do focus on the front sight -- with no real effort and without seeing anything double. But I'm reasonably strongly right eye dominant. I know that some people could have some difficulty if they are only weakly one eye dominant or if they are cross dominant and aren't taught the ways to adjust.

Fiddletown: what are the ways of adjusting? I'm pretty sure i'm ambiocular, with a 60/40 split between my right and left eye.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...what are the ways of adjusting? I'm pretty sure i'm ambiocular, with a 60/40 split between my right and left eye...

If you're only weakly one side dominant or truly co-dominant, you pretty much need to learn to shoot one eye, i. e., close the eye on the non-dominant side (i. e., if right handed, close the left eye). And that's also what you might need to do with long guns if cross dominant (or learn to shoot from the non-dominant side shoulder).

But with a handgun, if truly cross dominant, simply turn your head slightly, keeping it erect, so the dominant eye is in line with the sights. We have an instructor in our group who is right handed and left eye dominant, and that's what he does. That's what we teach out students who are cross dominant, and it seems to work for them. And I do that when I shoot weak handed.

 

[Blackstone]

I'm cross-dominant but also co-dominant I started shooting with my right hand at the very beginning because of this, so it feels natural. The co-dominance issue is what gets me. I don't really want to shoot with one eye closed...

 

[Loosedhorse]

We have an instructor in our group who is right handed and left eye dominant, and that's what he does.

I teach the same thing, and it is consistently successful. I suppose I'll run into a student with a neck problem eventually, and it won't work, but so far, so good.

Long gun strategies (especially rifle) are more challenging.

I don't really want to shoot with one eye closed...

Neither do I, but I do. Actually, I think of it more as aiming with one eye closed (confirm sight picture quickly if the target is far enough away to require that), and then both eyes are back open.

Best way to check what works is with a timer at the range. Try sighting (not shooting) with one eye closed and see how long it takes you to get 10 good hits (as whatever distance you choose); then try with both eyes open. If with both eyes open, you're missing or slow (because you're uncertain), your brain is trying to tell you something.

Try it at various distances. As has been said, many can keep both eyes open on close targets--the question for you will be, how close?

 

[Ankeny]

A couple of the cross dominate IPSC shooters I have shot with don't mess around with moving their head. They move the gun in front of their dominant eye.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

That works if you're using the dominant eye. But if you have to train yourself to use the non-dominant eye, as I did, a tilt of the head really helps.

 

[Ankeny]

Vern:

I am talking about right handed shooters who are left eye dominant. No head tilt, they just modify their platform to bring the gun in front of their dominant eye.