Na, Tritium is a wonderful thing.
Sights or Target, Where to Focus?
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In past years I had the pleasure and privilege of knowing both Jeff Cooper and Rex Applegate. Cooper advocated his concept of a flash sight picture. Applegate promoted point shooting. Both of these gentlemen had smelled gunsmoke under hostile conditions, and neither was an armchair theorist.
And over time I learned a lot from not one, but both of them – and I never considered either to have been made obsolete by the other.
When it comes to techniques, there is a place for both sighted and unsighted methods, and it is the circumstances of the incident that is the determining factor concerning which is best. Since circumstances cannot be predicted in advance, the wider one’s knowledge is and the more techniques they can employ as necessary, the better off they are.
And I’ll throw Bill Jordan into this mix. He too had his own way of doing things, and if anyone ever saw him shoot (which I did) they would quickly see that out to about 5 to 7 yards one can shoot accurately, from waist level, where it is impossible to use the sights!
I learned a few things from him too.
And over time I learned a lot from not one, but both of them – and I never considered either to have been made obsolete by the other.
When it comes to techniques, there is a place for both sighted and unsighted methods, and it is the circumstances of the incident that is the determining factor concerning which is best. Since circumstances cannot be predicted in advance, the wider one’s knowledge is and the more techniques they can employ as necessary, the better off they are.
And I’ll throw Bill Jordan into this mix. He too had his own way of doing things, and if anyone ever saw him shoot (which I did) they would quickly see that out to about 5 to 7 yards one can shoot accurately, from waist level, where it is impossible to use the sights!
I learned a few things from him too.
In the State Patrol Academy this was called "shooting from retention". You are firing from holster level at a target 5 yards or so away in order to break contact and reestablish a standard sighted shooting position. It can be effective, if you practice a lot. But it is no substitute for well aimed fire. It is simply a method used to break close contact. Usually when you got in over your head or let someone get way to close to you. There are many tools in the box some, well aimed fire, simply work better than others.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
And Cooper taught this as well, and they still teach this at Gunsite. But it's taught not "instead of" sighted fire, but more like "when you have to".
The difference I think is that some are teaching and advocating unsighted fire "instead of" sighted fire and that is where a lot of the disagreements come in.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
instead of . . .
T.R. - I'll raise my hand to voice my objection along those lines as well.
Me, too. In fact I'm just a zombie right now.
Or am I a zombie today because I need my afternoon cup of coffee?
Or is it just because it's Halloween?
Lord, these issues are too complex for my oxygen-deprived zombie brain to digest.
I'm off to go raid the neighbor kid's candy bucket to rejuvenate. Or eat the cat's brains. If his Dad resists I'll think I'm still lucid enough to point shoot him.
T.R. - I'll raise my hand to voice my objection along those lines as well.
Justin said:
Me, too. In fact I'm just a zombie right now.
Or am I a zombie today because I need my afternoon cup of coffee?
Or is it just because it's Halloween?
Lord, these issues are too complex for my oxygen-deprived zombie brain to digest.
I'm off to go raid the neighbor kid's candy bucket to rejuvenate. Or eat the cat's brains. If his Dad resists I'll think I'm still lucid enough to point shoot him.
It's frightening by reading the many postings here, how some people have had no training and still wish to give advice. Bad advice at that.
Start with front sites, stick with front sites. Contact range, instinctive shooting, hip hooting and other scenarios are usually great after you've gotten the basics down.
Start with front sites, stick with front sites. Contact range, instinctive shooting, hip hooting and other scenarios are usually great after you've gotten the basics down.
Sorry to be so late to respond, here. Computer issues. I don't see anything you say here doesn't also apply to handguns. You first identify the target with your eyes. Then you bring your gun to target. If/when the target is moving, you track it with gun and upper body as a unit, just like a shotgun. You don't move just your head and swivel your wrist.
I get it that a long gun has a stock. That makes it steadier and more accurate. But that isn't why you magically don't need sights on a shotgun. You don't need sights because the 16+ inch barrel and/or rail acts as the sights. When your head/eye is not in the right position, you'll be able to tell the barrel is crooked. Putting sights on the shotgun would just slow you down, if you focused on them. (Similarly, I can put more bullets on target faster with a Glock with open sights than I can with an AR with peep sights.)
The exact same mechanics can be applied to handguns. Once I have assumed my stance/grip, it's like I've shouldered a long gun. At this point, I've already aimed the gun. Then I move my head down and to the right, to align with the sights, just like putting my head on the stock of a shotgun. Now I adjust my aim, using my whole upper body and head as a unit.
I do see a lot of really good shooters who appear to not move their head at all, which implies they're manipulating the gun in order to simultaneously point the sights between their eye and the target, so maybe that's one of the differences between these two targeting philosphies. It would be very difficult to shoot like that without focusing on the sights.
If I focus on the sights too much, I don't get off the shots as fast on a moving target and/or between fast transitions. I'd rather get a decent shot off at the perfect time than to miss the perfect shot, entirely. In this situation, you are looking for a compromise that gives you the best opportunity for a hit (this might be another way of saying shooting a flying bird is an act of faith), and perfect sight picture is not always the best way to go. Whenever you finally get your perfect sight picture, the target might not be behind it.
I never had trouble picking up shotguns after years of handgun and rifle. First time I shot trap, I made 9 of ten. The only miss was because the setup used two shotguns. I broke all 5 on the first gun, but the pattern was off on the second one. After the first miss, I instinctively corrected, about an inch to the left. Just a guess, really. When the next clay broke, I kept that sight picture and broke the rest.
Perhaps people who only shoot pistol focusing on the sights find it difficult to learn shotgun.
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Point shooting shouldn't be taught "instead of " modern technique and modern technique shouldn't be taught "instead of" point shooting if you want a good set of tools to use defensively. Each has their place based on time and distance available.
David E
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A misconception many point shooters have is that using the sights is slow. It's not, when using proper technique, and it's more accurate and reliable under a great many situations.
That said, any well rounded shooter should be able to point shoot within it's limitations.
But it's typically easier for sight-shooter to pick up point shooting than it is for the typical point-shooter to use sights at speed.
That said, any well rounded shooter should be able to point shoot within it's limitations.
But it's typically easier for sight-shooter to pick up point shooting than it is for the typical point-shooter to use sights at speed.
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Byrd666
Member
Sights or Target, Where to Focus?
I'm guessing it has probably been mentioned before but, pay attention to your target first. The way I was initially taught to fire a handgun was a point and shoot discipline. Particularly in a short distance, self defense attitude. You always see your target and what they are doing and you still have some peripheral vision left. As long as you don't let yourself get tunnel vision.
On longer shots with said pistol, I was trained to use only the front sight. Longer shots being more than about 15 yards, up to about 25 yards. After that point, both front and rear sights come into play. I've worked myself up to about 30 yards and hitting the target, a 12" round shoot & see, with some fair accuracy. For me, anything much longer than that becomes rifle territory.
I'm guessing it has probably been mentioned before but, pay attention to your target first. The way I was initially taught to fire a handgun was a point and shoot discipline. Particularly in a short distance, self defense attitude. You always see your target and what they are doing and you still have some peripheral vision left. As long as you don't let yourself get tunnel vision.
On longer shots with said pistol, I was trained to use only the front sight. Longer shots being more than about 15 yards, up to about 25 yards. After that point, both front and rear sights come into play. I've worked myself up to about 30 yards and hitting the target, a 12" round shoot & see, with some fair accuracy. For me, anything much longer than that becomes rifle territory.
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I think the statement is rather ambiguous.
I'm reading "sights are aligned" as in a good grip/stance. I.e., if you get a good grip and stance, (or if you shoulder a shotgun properly) and you get just the front sight on the target, the shot will be close to where you need it. That might not be what was intended, though. I guess OP could have meant that the sights are aligned perfectly with your eye, but the target isn't perfectly centered. But in either interpretation I can get from that, as opposed to "perfect sight picture," it ain't anything I would use for "precision shooting sports."
I'm reading sight picture as in the sights are aligned with the target and with the shooters eye. And... well... everything's perfect. I don't see how you can get more precise than that.
I'm reading "sights are aligned" as in a good grip/stance. I.e., if you get a good grip and stance, (or if you shoulder a shotgun properly) and you get just the front sight on the target, the shot will be close to where you need it. That might not be what was intended, though. I guess OP could have meant that the sights are aligned perfectly with your eye, but the target isn't perfectly centered. But in either interpretation I can get from that, as opposed to "perfect sight picture," it ain't anything I would use for "precision shooting sports."
I'm reading sight picture as in the sights are aligned with the target and with the shooters eye. And... well... everything's perfect. I don't see how you can get more precise than that.
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fiftybmg
member
When you use the sights, focus on the sights.
Matthew Temkin
Member
"The difference I think is that some are teaching and advocating unsighted fire "instead of" sighted fire and that is where a lot of the disagreements come in."
No one who ever taught me point shooting ever advocated any such thing.
Nor did Jordan, Bryce, Fairabairn, etc etc.
Point shooting was always meant to be a compliment---not a replacement--of aimed fire.
And, IMHO, a skill that should be mastered only after one is familiar with firearms and the principles of marksmanship.
Which is why I wonder why there is so much flack when so many agree on this basic premise.
No one who ever taught me point shooting ever advocated any such thing.
Nor did Jordan, Bryce, Fairabairn, etc etc.
Point shooting was always meant to be a compliment---not a replacement--of aimed fire.
And, IMHO, a skill that should be mastered only after one is familiar with firearms and the principles of marksmanship.
Which is why I wonder why there is so much flack when so many agree on this basic premise.
Hangingrock
Member
After reading all the responses to this subject I could not help but think what Askins take would have been on this subject? Most likely in my opinion a very blunt and to the point reply based on extensive experience.
fiftybmg
member
The most learned individual on the teaching of the mechanics of pistol shooting, in my opinion, is Ed McGivern. Ed advocated first the mastery of aimed, sight-assisted shooting, then point shooting, then point shooting on moving targets. In that order. Somewhere in there he slotted aimed shooting on moving targets as well. Ed was living proof of his methodology.
Wether you shoot for sport or for a living, the learning of the mechanics is the same.
Wether you shoot for sport or for a living, the learning of the mechanics is the same.
Loosedhorse
member
Agreed. Actually, some of the "rotary" movements of your eyes exactly counter the "shake" that would otherwise be caused by head movements as you walk (vestibulo-ocular reflex). But...
Perhaps I misunderstood: I thought the claim was that our memories smooth out the "real" experience of vision (as it was memory that was supposed to be responsible for the sensation of tachypsychia). So, if that wasn't it, the remaining point was: that all perception occurs in the mind? Sure; no big concept.
Then that same darkness or smoke will presumably make it impossible to see your target. Should we shoot under those conditions? (Of course, a flashlight would greatly help your ability to see and identify your target in darkness, and night-sights--as Gus says--would help you see your sights. Maybe we should get those, in case we need them some night?)
As to "close distance," I presume you mean being forced to shoot from retention position (and not just needing reading glasses up close
)? That's fine.
There it is.
Matthew Temkin
Member
Yes I do.
The first few drills are aimed fire--two handed, one handed and from the holster.
Included are both tactical and speed reloads.
Ditto for long gun classes--except, of course, the only holster work involved is doing transitions.
I am looking to see what type of skill level they are bringing to the table.
The only point shooting teaching I do now is at law enforcement seminars--only one or two a year--where the students are all instructors and most are also SWAT.
Naturally these drills only last for about 15 minutes or so, since I have yet to be disappointed with a student's skill.
The majority of my teaching now is the NYS 47 hour armed security class, in which point shooting a very small part of the class.
About 1-2 hours.
The first few drills are aimed fire--two handed, one handed and from the holster.
Included are both tactical and speed reloads.
Ditto for long gun classes--except, of course, the only holster work involved is doing transitions.
I am looking to see what type of skill level they are bringing to the table.
The only point shooting teaching I do now is at law enforcement seminars--only one or two a year--where the students are all instructors and most are also SWAT.
Naturally these drills only last for about 15 minutes or so, since I have yet to be disappointed with a student's skill.
The majority of my teaching now is the NYS 47 hour armed security class, in which point shooting a very small part of the class.
About 1-2 hours.
I think of sight picture as seeing the relationship of the sights to each other and to the target. Depending on the difficulty of the shot and shooter skill, the sights may not need to be in perfect alignment with each other, nor do they need to be in perfect alignment with the target. All that is required is for the shooter to know where the bullet will go and to be able to call the shot with certainty at the instant the gun fires.
mortablunt
Member
I just got zombified in HVZ, so I'll lend some experience from that encounter.
The three enemy players spread out and ran at me very quickly. I could not hit them until one was at 10, one was at 3, and one was at 12. They were only about 4M from me. I shot the first two, thosse at 10 and 3, within 2 seconds of each other as they rushed me. I was aiming and using the sights, so with a bit of lead, I hit them solidly- not a bad feat for using a stockless dark blaster with slow projectiles and only a rail on top for aiming. The last one rushed me while I was working the action, so I hastily aimed at him. This time, I did not aim, but instead, fired on instinct. I missed by a narrow but important margin and he got me. I probably would have made it if I had trained more and used the sights.
NOTE: HVZ is not real life, but it definitely gave me a very important lesson in surviving an attack by multiple assailants. The lesson is: you won't see it coming and if you haven't practiced under stress, then you're roast.
The three enemy players spread out and ran at me very quickly. I could not hit them until one was at 10, one was at 3, and one was at 12. They were only about 4M from me. I shot the first two, thosse at 10 and 3, within 2 seconds of each other as they rushed me. I was aiming and using the sights, so with a bit of lead, I hit them solidly- not a bad feat for using a stockless dark blaster with slow projectiles and only a rail on top for aiming. The last one rushed me while I was working the action, so I hastily aimed at him. This time, I did not aim, but instead, fired on instinct. I missed by a narrow but important margin and he got me. I probably would have made it if I had trained more and used the sights.
NOTE: HVZ is not real life, but it definitely gave me a very important lesson in surviving an attack by multiple assailants. The lesson is: you won't see it coming and if you haven't practiced under stress, then you're roast.
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Matthew Temkin
Member
HVZ is not real life
Indeed...
For the record--are you talking about a video game or an actual simulated encounter with Sims or airsoft?
Indeed...
For the record--are you talking about a video game or an actual simulated encounter with Sims or airsoft?
mortablunt
Member
It was an airsoft one. I learned that I haven't practiced nearly enough. I'd probably get myself killed if I ever ended up needing to use armed self defense.
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Matthew Temkin
Member
Force on Force is a wonderful eye opener.
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