Single Action vs. Double Action

[mikemyers]

.....You mentioned shooting other guns, do you focus on trigger control and fundamentals as much with them as when you shoot double action revolvers?......

Do I focus as much on those things? Definitely. Nowadays, it's the way I try to shoot any gun, revolver or semi-auto, single-action or double-action.

Timers.... I don't have any plans to buy one right now, but if I "graduate" the first grade, and start shooting multiple targets, that would then become something I wound get involved in I think.

 

[murf]

mikemyers,

i think it's time to add "follow-through" to your shot process. it is an important part of accurate shooting (as of golf, bowling, throwing, etc.).

sights must be aligned, not when the hammer falls, not when the primer ignites, but at the instant the bullet leaves the muzzle of the barrel (thanks gunblue490 for reminding me of that subtle fact). you will not be able to see your sights at that particular time as the gun will be in recoil. so, it is important that you develop a consistent follow-through that will keep the sights aligned when the bullet leaves the barrel.

how? keep a steady grip on the gun, don't try to fight the recoil, keep concentrating on your trigger control (follow-through on your rearward trigger pull). basically keep everything the same "for a little while longer" after the trigger breaks.

anyway, i think this is the next step to shrink those groups.

luck,

murf

 

[mikemyers]

.......sights must be aligned, not when the hammer falls, not when the primer ignites, but at the instant the bullet leaves the muzzle of the barrel .......

My overseas trip got delayed a bit, so I've had lots more time to practice, and hope to try it out at the range tomorrow.

Concerning what you wrote, I used to slowly press on the trigger, and release it as soon as the gun fired. Over the past two days, I've been playing around with that. I decided I would keep the trigger pulled back, for a little bit after the hammer dropped.

I then noticed that at least half the time, the front sight had "jiggled" slightly after "firing". Therefore the sight (and the barrel) moved that slight amount, possibly before the bullet actually left the barrel.

I confirmed that with my laser grips - turned the laser back on, and the tiny red dot "moved" slightly just as the hammer fell. I tried all sorts of changes with one or both hands, and finally decided it had to be from my trigger finger. It had everything to do with what part of my trigger finger was actually resting on the trigger. Still using the laser, I found one spot where the little red dot stayed where I wanted it. I turned the laser off, and practiced like that for about half an hour or so.



I'm not going to shoot with the laser on, mostly because of what Mr. Borland wrote a while back, but while dry-firing, it's a great way to tell how steady the gun is.

 

[Jenrick]

I will toss out that the late Ed McGivern believed that one of the keys to fast accurate shooting is a smooth trigger release. He advocated being able to do the penny/dime drill on the front sight from initial finger contact off the trigger, through the DA trigger stroke, all the way to finger coming off the trigger after the shot. I found that I had a very rough release, and smoothing it out helped with several issues i was having.

-Jenrick

 

[mikemyers]

Jenrick, lots of people have had good ideas in this thread, that I used to help myself shoot better. One of them is daily dry-fire practice. Maybe I'm nuts, but from today's experience, there is one single spot on my trigger finger that is able to push the trigger back all the way without "jiggling" the sights near the end of the travel. It seemed like if I moved my finger in a bit more, or out a bit more, the front sight moved just as the hammer fell.

I don't understand this, and maybe it was just some freak thing that won't be repeatable, but it's something I never even thought about trying earlier. When I put the crease of my first joint exactly over the trigger, everything was better.



Regarding what you wrote, the trigger pull on my M28 is better than when I first started this thread, but it's still pretty rough. As I put pressure on the trigger, the gun wobbles right and left, and I'm constantly adjusting the front sight to keep it lined up with the rear sight properly. I assume this is because of rough areas on the internal parts - but maybe it's because my trigger finger doesn't have enough strength? I dunno. Maybe that's just the way guns are.

(Now that I've got the S&W Manual, and have studied what to do, and read all of murf's suggestions that might keep me from getting too far into trouble, part of me wants to improve it myself. Another part of me says to realize my limitations, and let a professional gunsmith do the work.)

As to achieving "fast accurate shooting", my only real goal right now is "precision". Once i have that, I'm sure I will also have "accuracy". And once I get to that point, I can gradually work up to "fast" (but after watching Mr. Borland's video, I hate to put "I" and "fast" into the same sentence......)

 

[9mmepiphany]

...push the trigger back all the way without "jiggling" the sights near the end of the travel.

I don't understand this, and maybe it was just some freak thing that won't be repeatable, but it's something I never even thought about trying earlier.

It is really quite simple. What is causing the "jiggle" is that you aren't pressing the trigger straight to the rear.

The angle of the interface between your finger and the trigger is causing off-center pressure.

 

[mikemyers]

.......What is causing the "jiggle" is that you aren't pressing the trigger straight to the rear........The angle of the interface between your finger and the trigger is causing off-center pressure.

That makes total sense, but I never thought of it that way before. I knew that I had to press the trigger straight back, and until yesterday, I thought I was doing so. The books I read talked about what part of the finger to use on the trigger, and explained the need to press straight back.... but none of them said how to verify you're doing it correctly.

I'm not sure if I would have even noticed this, but for the advice up above to control "follow through" after the shot, which resulted in my not even releasing the trigger for a bit of time - which made this tiny bit of movement quite obvious.

What I think I found last night, practicing again, is that the front sight can remain steady if the joint in my finger is exactly in front of the trigger. If my finger is even slightly too far in, or not far enough in, I see movement in the front sight as the hammer drops. It also has something to do with how I move my finger, but it's hard for me to put that into words. I guess I just need to practice doing it in a way that "works", and the final test will be at the range.

(I don't think I would have ever noticed this at the range...... but hopefully I will find a difference at the range, once I learn how to do this without even thinking about it.)

 

[murf]

since your trigger finger is connected to your hand, a consistent grip will help with that straight-back trigger pull.

murf

 

[mikemyers]

since your trigger finger is connected to your hand......a consistent grip will help with that straight-back trigger pull.

Months ago, when I was reading and practicing, and reading more, I thought the proper way to do this was to pick up the gun with my left hand, and put it into my right hand, so it sat in my hand exactly as the books said it should. That didn't work too well for me, as with the original wood grips on the M28, my trigger finger didn't reach far enough in, and I had to pull/press on the trigger with the tip of my finger. With the gun as "stiff" and "rough" as it was, that was not only hard to do, but the gun wobbled too much. So, I moved my had a little, allowing more of my trigger finger to go into the trigger guard. I could then press/pull the trigger near my joint, which was easier. That's how it has been up until a few weeks ago.

When I installed the Crimson Trace grips, I found they were much thinner than the original S&W wood grips. My trigger finger can now go quite far into the trigger guard. At first I thought the new grips were too skinny, but then I decided that I was now "holding" the gun only with the front and the back of the grips, with no pressure on the side, which the books implied is the proper way to hold a handgun.

Part of me wishes the Crimson Trace grips were slightly thicker, but I don't have enough experience at all this. I don't want to make any more changes until I'm sure they are the right thing to do.


Back to what you just wrote. Now I can hold my gun "properly" (according to the books), and I am able to use any part of my trigger finger. I'm trying to do what you said about holding the gun with a consistent grip. Now that I'm holding it consistently, I think I notice a difference due to how I am pressing/pulling on the trigger (what part of my finger the trigger is actually touching the trigger).

Maybe the real answer is how my finger pushes on the trigger, rather than what part of my finger is touching the trigger. Time for more practice, and more experimentation I guess.

(It's much easier for me to understand how you guys are suggesting these things be done, than it is to actually get my muscles to make things happen that way.....)

 

[Old Fuff]

Part of me wishes the Crimson Trace grips were slightly thicker, ...

I have an easy solution, but it's very expensive...

Sure it is.

Anyway get a piece of cardboard no more then 1/16" thick. Remove the stocks on your revolver and trace around the outside on the frame in the handle area. Make one, trim it to a precise fit, and then trace around it to make a second one. Make a hole in both for the stock screw to go through, which can be oversized without causing problems.

Then put one on the frame followed with the same-side stock. Now duplicate on the other side. Assemble the stock screw and tighten.

What you have done is slightly shimmed the stocks outboard. This may throw off the laser sight a bit, but for the time being don't worry about it. Try shooting, and see if you find any improvement. If so you can stick with the cardboard, or make a similar set out of aluminum, brass, plastic - or whatever.

No, I didn't invent this. Smith & Wesson did, around 1935.

 

[mikemyers]

I like your solution - real "low tech"!!!!!



The original grips are 1.4" wide, measured halfway up the grips.

The Crimson Trace grips are 1.1" wide, with a slight bulge near the battery and switch.

I called Crimson Trace, and they told me they don't have spacers, or other ways of correcting this, and that if I did space things apart as suggested, I would need longer screws to hold the grips on. That's still an option.

I'll leave the grips on for right now, as even if it feels "loose", the thinner grips allow me to put both my hands and my trigger finger where they belong. I had to change my grip slightly to use the (wider) wood grips. I suppose that I can always find thinner grips for the gun....



Another topic- I notice that as I pull the trigger, the gun wobbles back and forth, right to left. This could be due to my muscles not being strong enough, or "something" in the gun which is related to sideways movement. The cylinder rotates as I pull the trigger, which is one thing that could contribute to this movement. Or, maybe it's just normal - if the cylinder tries to rotate one way, the gun "should" try to rotate the other way. I guess this can't be eliminated, but maybe it can be smoothed out....

I guess all those parts will be worked on if I get a proper "trigger job". Maybe that will make everything smoother.

 

[mikemyers]

After two weeks of only dry-firing, usually twice a day, I went to the range this morning. This is with my M28, 10 shots per target, so I can do the NRA scoring if i want, or do the CPE calculations.

I used one target to "warm up", then tried shooting the best I know how, taking lots of time (probably too much) for each shot. After four targets, I wasn't too pleased.

For the remaining two targets, I used the same timing I use at home for dry-firing, one shot after another, no more than five seconds apart.

From what Mr. Borland wrote, I'm no longer aiming at "the bullseye", but in my mind, aiming for the exact center of the bullseye.

There is one "wild shot", which looks "different" when I look at it up close. The guy to my left hit "my" backing board at least twice, and while I suspect that's his shot, not mine, since I can only find 9 holes in the target I was aiming at, I don't know why that hole is there for sure.


What i think I'm learning from all this is:

• I am still definitely more accurate DA than SA (puzzled as to why...)
• All the dry-firing is certainly making my groups more precise.
• Taking too long to get off a shot is not good.
• Getting better is a long, l o n g process.

 

[tomrkba]

mikemyers,

Here is how I increased my speed from the draw to first shot with my GP100. My focus is upon self-defense, so I will present that method here. Keep in mind that you should find a coach proficient in revolver shooting to help you. He or she will be able to spot small flaws in your technique that have large consequences on the target.

1) As usual, acquire your grip and draw the gun to your preferred horizontal location with your finger on the trigger and the support hand in the appropriate spot for a solid two handed grip. Stance can be anything and doesn't affect what your hands are doing. Balance in pressure on the gun is important. I do tighten my "Alternate Killing Hand's"* index finger for less sight movement.
2) Accelerate the firearm forward and begin to pull the trigger.
3) Once you are approximately 3/4 of the way out, start slowing down the movement of your arms.
4) Time the break of the trigger as your arms stop. Slowing to a stop prevents the muzzle from bouncing around as the bullet leaves the barrel.

This is a very high level view since it does not break down the trigger actions I am taking as the gun moves to full extension.

Trigger Pull

First, there is nothing wrong with staging the trigger as a means to improve your speed. The problem is that if you allow it to become habit by failing to shorten the interval of the pause. Continuously shorten the pause. At some point, the pause should be very short and difficult for an observer to notice. Once you have mastered the trigger to this extent, you can stop pausing altogether. This is a version of "The Bump Drill". I highly recommend that you perform "The Bump Drill" to learn where your trigger breaks. It will accelerate your elimination of the "pause":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcfnstRzGQc

Sighting and Reset

The next step is exceptionally important: see your sights a second time! This will prevent vertical stringing and reset your brain for the next shot. Focus upon controlled pairs since double taps are more difficult with revolvers. It takes you to the next most important concept: smooth trigger reset. This is essential for burst fire (double taps, Hearts-n-Minds and Zippers).

This is where I had the most trouble because my first shot would be great, but subsequent shots would be all over the place. The trigger reset is AS IMPORTANT as the pull. Your finger must maintain contact with the trigger face. The odds of slapping the trigger for the next shot dramatically increase if your finger breaks contact with the trigger. You will know when you do this because the shot will be at 7-9 o'clock (3-5 o'clock for left handers) or otherwise some sort of flyer if you are extremely inconsistent on the reset. Therefore, do not outrun the trigger! If you did a "home trigger job", or have a competition trigger job, keep in mind that the reset spring may be weak. The velocity of the trigger upon return will be less. The speed of the reset should be equivalent to that of the pull (without staging). This will put you into a rhythm of pull, bang, front sight/reset.

You can practice reset while doing "The Wall Drill" so you can definitively determine what your sights are doing leading up to that second shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7YdjrvB718

Odds-n-Ends

Also keep in mind that practice with a revolver in 22 Long Rifle will have very limited utility. Managing recoil is part of this skill and I have found that its importance is exaggerated in revolvers. I trained for at least nine months with an S&W K18 until I could get very tiny six round groups shooting as fast as I could go. I fired nearly no centerfire revolver ammunition during that period, but I dry fired constantly. I went to centerfire and it was if I had not practiced.

Always practice reloading your revolver during these sessions. Do it properly every time. Start slowly and increase speed as you move through the session. Push until you start dropping Snap Caps on the floor, then back off a bit.


Summary

1) Learn where your trigger breaks. You'll have to learn both double and single action.
2) Learn how your trigger behaves on the reset. You should know how the front sight is going to bounce around as that trigger moves forward.
3) Use "The Wall Drill" to verify your reset's smoothness and "The Bump Drill" to learn your trigger.
4) See the front sight after the first shot. Focus upon consistency between shots at speed, but don't get into double tap territory.
5) Fire centerfire cartridges frequently using these techniques because recoil management changes the entire game.
6) Don't forget to practice reloads! It's essential and "reload" your AZOOM Snap Caps every six to eight shots while dry firing.
7) Have fun, but have a plan when you go to the range!


* Also known as "support hand".

 

[9mmepiphany]

For the remaining two targets, I used the same timing I use at home for dry-firing, one shot after another, no more than five seconds apart.

I'm a little confused. Are you saying that, when you are shooting quicker, you take 5 seconds between each shot...so you are taking longer than that when shooting more slowly?

I didn't expect you to be shooting 10 shots in 5 seconds, although that isn't very fast, but I didn't realize you were shooting quite that slowly.

I'm beginning to realize why you're getting movement during the trigger press...you're stroking the trigger too slowly or you're trying to refine your sight picture too much

 

[mikemyers]

.......I'm beginning to realize why you're getting movement during the trigger press...you're stroking the trigger too slowly or you're trying to refine your sight picture too much

Yes, in dry firing, I have a routine set up, 40 seconds of "firing", then 30 seconds of rest, over and over, and when I'm "firing", it's roughly five seconds between shots. As in S-L--O---W........ I've been doing that for several years now. As I found out today, anything more than that seems to degrade my shooting.

I don't think I'm "refining" the sight picture, as much as trying to maintain it. While it's getting better with time, as I pull/press on the trigger, the gun wants to move back and forth, and all I'm trying to do is correct.

You do have me thinking about something though - if 5 seconds per shot is better than 7 or 8, maybe 3 will be better than 5.....



Maybe later on, I'll want more, but right now my only goal is a tiny group of 10 shots in a target at 15 yards, using any of my existing guns (M19, M28, or M29).

(My goal way back when was 4" groups, then a year ago 3", and now it's 2" or better.)

 

[mikemyers]

......Here is how I increased my speed from the draw to first shot ........

I'd like to thank you for taking the time to type all that in, but it is way beyond my current plans. I'm still working on slow speed precision; once I can do that well enough, I will get more involved in "faster".

 

[MrBorland]

(My goal way back when was 4" groups, then a year ago 3", and now it's 2" or better.)

Excellent, Mike! Well done. You're doing great! Keep the faith!

I'm no longer aiming at "the bullseye", but in my mind, aiming for the exact center of the bullseye.

Your vertical dispersion's a touch bigger than horizontal. Based on your above quote, I'm wondering if you're holding the top of the front sight at the center of the bull. That'd be a "center hold". A good all-around hold, but for precise work, many find a "6 o'clock hold" offers a more precise aiming point.

 

[9mmepiphany]

You do have me thinking about something though - if 5 seconds per shot is better than 7 or 8, maybe 3 will be better than 5.....

I really couldn't say, the only time I'll take that much time between shots is if I'm checking zero on newly installed sights.

I'll have to break out my 2.5" M-66 after the IDPA State Match next week and see how badly my revolver shooting has deteriorated

 

[BCRider]

I am still definitely more accurate DA than SA (puzzled as to why...)

If you're doing both the SA and DA correctly the two will match. One is NOT better than the other for accurate shooting other than in the practice given by the shooter.

I shoot my DA revolvers almost exclusively in DA mode. So I was not puzzled for very long at all when I tried some SA shooting and found that my groups were larger in SA than in DA. But once I started pulling the trigger correctly my SA and DA groups matched up.

And that's where you are. If your SA groups are larger than your DA it's almost certainly because you're snapping at the trigger in SA mode when you see the sights line up. And that's bumping the gun.

A single action trigger may not need to move far. But you need to build pressure on it with the same degree of attention as you use for DA trigger pulls. And again I would suggest that you don't try to "stage" the trigger in SA to where you build some pressure and then pull the last little bit when the sights are lined up. Once again that last instant decision will lead to snapping at the trigger and making your hand flinch in sympathy. And that pulls the gun and opens up the groups more than a nice smooth pressure build and surprise break even if the sight picture is wandering a little.

 

[mikemyers]

If you're doing both the SA and DA correctly the two will match. One is NOT better than the other for accurate shooting other than in the practice given by the shooter........And that's where you are. If your SA groups are larger than your DA it's almost certainly because you're snapping at the trigger in SA mode when you see the sights line up. And that's bumping the gun.

A single action trigger may not need to move far. But you need to build pressure on it with the same degree of attention as you use for DA trigger pulls. And again I would suggest that you don't try to "stage" the trigger in SA to where you build some pressure and then pull the last little bit when the sights are lined up. ......

Well, maybe you're right, and my guess as to what's going on is wrong. The trigger on this gun still needs work, although it is infinitely better than it used to be. That means in pulling/pushing the trigger, I am constantly, always, compensating for the gun moving one way or another. I rarely "know" when it's going to fire - I just follow some advice from way back when, trying to set my trigger finger to automatically be increasing pressure, then forget about it and ONLY think of the sights. I don't fire when the sights look good - the gun fires somewhat at random. I used to be pulling the front sight off at the instant the gun went "click", but I don't think I'm doing that any more. I try to hold at least half the weight of the gun, if not more, using my left arm. I try to "squeeze" on the gun only in front and back, not the sides. I try to get my finger to move straight back. I try (and usually can) keep myself from jerking the trigger, but if I'm taking way too long to shoot, I think I get confused. At that point, I usually release the trigger, and start all over again. ....and I almost always load only 2, 3, 4, or 5 cylinders, at random, so I have instant feedback if the gun "moves" when it fires on an empty cylinder. That used to happen a lot. Now it's much, much less often.

You sound perfectly logical about shooting as well SA as DA. Maybe I need to do exactly what you said, and build up the pressure on the trigger more slowly/smoothly.



It's very strange. I used to go to the range, and if my miserable memory is right, wish I could shoot as well as others. Now I go to the range, and don't see anyone shooting as well as I am. I don't think that in any way makes me "good"; it just means I'm a bit closer than the others I see there to being "good".

(I used to see my long-term goal as being "impossible". I no longer see it that way. Now I figure that if I get all the basics figured out, and then keep practicing, it will happen. .....and as just one other thing that's changed, i used to think SA was great, and DA was an exercise in futility. I was wrong. Now I think DA is great, and more rewarding, and SA seems almost "boring".)

 

[mikemyers]

......Your vertical dispersion's a touch bigger than horizontal. Based on your above quote, I'm wondering if you're holding the top of the front sight at the center of the bull. That'd be a "center hold". A good all-around hold, but for precise work, many find a "6 o'clock hold" offers a more precise aiming point.

I am doing what you think I'm doing, but the target is so blurry I don't know what I could line the front sight up with other than doing it this way. I sort of can visualize the "center" of anything. One thing I know is a "problem" is in the dim indoor lighting at my range, I find it very difficult to line up the sights vertically.

For a 6:00 hold, wouldn't I need "something" to line up with? As things are, I can barely "see" where the center is, but I somehow "know"...... or at least make what I think is a reasonable guess.

I can see the vertical orientation MUCH better when I'm dry firing, as I have light coming onto the sighs from the rear. At the indoor range, no such luck. At the outdoor range I often visit, I can see this perfectly.

 

[mikemyers]

I'll throw in one additional thought, but I think I already know the answer. I always used to shoot SA, and never got "tired" of shooting. Now that I'm almost always doing DA, my trigger finger is starting to get "sore" before I finish.

• I used to dry-fire almost every day, and lately I've almost doubled how much time I spend at it. By the time I stop, my finger is definitely feeling sore.
  
• I used to go through one box of 50 rounds at the range per visit, and now am shooting double that. By the time I finished early this afternoon, my trigger finger was quite sore.

My own answer is that the more I shoot, the more my finger will get used to it.

 

[tomrkba]

I'd like to thank you for taking the time to type all that in, but it is way beyond my current plans. I'm still working on slow speed precision; once I can do that well enough, I will get more involved in "faster".

You did not understand. The techniques I described build the fundamentals. You can isolate the individual parts. Start with The Bump Drill to learn the trigger in DA and SA modes. Once you have that down, move to The Wall Drill to learn reset. Either can be performed at any speed, including taking 10 seconds to pull or reset the trigger once.

Definitely read Grant Cunningham's The Gun Digest Book of the Revolver. Buy the print copy since the ebook's photos are not correctly aligned with the text.

Where are you located? We can meet at the range to review things if you are in my area.

 

[mikemyers]

......Start with The Bump Drill to learn the trigger in DA and SA modes.......

If you understand what I was saying, then I must be misunderstanding you. I just watched the video you linked to, "The Bump Drill". I can certainly see that as being something useful when I get my Colt Combat Commander back from Colt, but I just can't see it working with my S&W 357 Highway Patrolman, in DA mode. Let's assume that of the 5 seconds per round, it's 4 seconds for me right now to slowly pull the trigger and wait for the gun to fire. (The other second is holding the trigger in, until after the shot has fired, and then slowly releasing it).

Now let's assume that I do this three or four times, each going a little further until the gun fires. That's 12 or 16 seconds of holding the gun steady with my sights aligned for a shot. Not good - I know that after six or seven seconds, I need to stop, put the gun down, and start all over again. In addition, won't the cylinder advance to the next position every time I "almost" pull the trigger?

I never heard of this concept before, and I certainly won't forget it, but if you're saying what I think you're saying, I can't see it working for me while using a double action revolver.



If you have time, check out what Mr. Borland wrote about "the fundamentals", especially "trigger control".

 

[Old Fuff]

Mike...

I have done everything can think of to make you're life miserable and now I'm going to do it again...

What you need is a history lesson, so go to Amazon or some other book seller and buy a book titled, Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, by Ed McGivern. Be sure you get a later reprint because the original editions that date from about 1940 sometimes fetch prices in and above the $100.00 range while reprints that offer the same information will be found at $30.00 or less - especially secondhand copies.

Then you can learn techniques from a gentleman who could have someone flip washers or similar coin-sized disks up in the air and hit them, usually firing a S&W K-frame revolver using the double-action mode exclusively.

They're some who think that double-action shooting has no practical use beyond small 5-shot snubbies at point blank distances. Boy! Are they mistaken...