Single Action vs. Double Action

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mcb said:
I got passed last week on my way to work by a beautiful '56 mustang running a Holly carburetor and that does not change the fact that the carburetors on highway passenger vehicles are obsolete and have been since the early 1990's.

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As for staging a double action trigger I have always heard that is a bad plan. I am not sure I actually stage a trigger but the rate at which I sweep the trigger changes dramatically between big close targets and distant small targets. You can practically slap that trigger on USPSA metric target at <7 yards and not even use the rear sight and still get alphas, a 6-inch plate at 30 yards you're pulling that trigger slow and smooth and focusing on good sight picture especially for the last bit of the trigger pull.
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I guess because it was before my time but here it is: http://masbukti.com/ford/ford-mustang/1956-ford-mustang :)

I can stage the trigger dry firing, but when ever I try it at the range, it is a bit disturbing when it goes off while staging, but anyways i only do that pointed downrange. In SD I would not try staging, nor cocking if it could at all be helped.
 
If I were wanting a gun for self protection, that would have nothing to do with what gun I might want to compete with in a bullseye match. Chances are, neither purpose could be achieved with the best gun for each individual purpose. I suppose if I wanted a gun for protection, maybe I would prefer one of the new plastic guns - and it's more likely I would end up with a Walther PPK, most likely the PPK/S (which I already own). I've got a S&W Model 19 with a very short barrel, but unlike Hickok45, who can do anything with any gun, I doubt this would be a good gun for target competition. Still, if I were wearing one for protection, I would feel much more capable with the small Smith revolver. No funny stuff to remember, it "just works". Maybe I'll take it with me to the range Friday.

(I bought one of those laser grip kits for the 19, but as I recall it isn't much use in daylight.)

If I can figure out how to post a photo here, I will post the one of how I did with the Model 28 at 25 yards earlier today. Can "THR" host an image?

......maybe this will work....
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...t-on-adding-photos-to-the-forum.336939/page-2
 
Gee, it worked. Next time I'll find a way to make it smaller.
The orange dot covers an "oops", as in I wasn't ready to fire - my fault, not the gun.

All shots were single-action, and all but the "oops" were "surprise" shots as I gradually added pressure to the trigger, with no idea when the gun would go "boom". I just concentrated on the sights, ignored the target, and very slowly added pressure to the trigger. For the most part, I only loaded three or four rounds at a time, then put the gun down.
 
mcb said:
.....a beautiful '56 mustang....
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The first model year of the Mustang was 1965, although production began in 1964. Since we were a "Chevy family," I had to wait until Christmas 1966 until I could get my hands on a 1967 Camaro. That was my car until I traded up for a 1971 Monte Carlo.
 
AlexanderA said:
The first model year of the Mustang was 1965, although production began in 1964.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure was the summer of 1964 when the manager
of a Northwest Chicago suburb asked me if I wanted
to take a drive with him.

My reaction was, "Why?"

"You'll see," he replied.

When I got into that car, I said, "What the XXXX is this!"

He explained it was a Ford promotion of its new baby
and various towns got them to drive around for a while.
 
mikemyers said:
Gee, it worked. Next time I'll find a way to make it smaller.
The orange dot covers an "oops", as in I wasn't ready to fire - my fault, not the gun.

All shots were single-action, and all but the "oops" were "surprise" shots as I gradually added pressure to the trigger, with no idea when the gun would go "boom". I just concentrated on the sights, ignored the target, and very slowly added pressure to the trigger. For the most part, I only loaded three or four rounds at a time, then put the gun down.
Click to expand...

If you work the trigger staging in dry fire, there should be click as the cylinder comes into alignment with the barrel, then the ever so slightest additional pull and (if loaded) boom! At least my Smith 642 is like that.
 
For me, I follow the advice of the bullseye experts, who pretty much all say the same thing.
Website: https://www.bullseyepistol.com/zins.htm

"I still believe that there are two types: Uninterrupted and Wrong."
"If trigger control is ever interrupted in slow fire the shot needs to be aborted and the shot started over."

I'm not suggesting what anyone else should or shouldn't do, but he's an eleven time world champion, and puts on classes around the USA.

My experience - when I know exactly when the shot will break, as I'm making it break right then, the shot is not as precise as when I just add pressure, not knowing exactly when the gun will fire. I'll never catch up with "the experts", but I've proved the above to myself so many times, with so many guns.

More information can be found in his many training videos, such as this one:


It's easy enough to try - just take a few shots where you pull the trigger to fire the gun, then take a few where you just slowly add pressure, and eventually the gun will fire (as a "surprise" to you). For target shooting it makes a big difference.

Brian was saying even someone like Jerry Miculek shoots this way, but he does it so fast that nobody notices.

As a good friend of mine put it: "Watch the dot, wait for the bang."
 
Meanwhile, back to revolvers, and single vs double action, on a whim I got out my S&W Model 17-5 last night. Huge difference from my Model 28 - the trigger moves back smooth as molasses. The gun doesn't wobble from the trigger movement. I tested it in dry-fire, and I suspect I could shoot it either way, and get similar results.

Maybe I'll get to try it for a short time at the range tomorrow morning.

Something else I noticed - after all this shooting with the Model 28, two handed, I found I could easily shoot the Model 17 with one hand. The last time I tried that, I wasn't strong enough.

I've got a lot more 22 ammo than 38; that also makes a difference.
 
tightgroup tiger said:
That's the way I was taught to shoot revolver and I shoot better this way in Double Action. I don't hesitate and I don't slow down or stop my trigger pull.
One steady, smooth motion.
I have found that double action for me is easier and more natural for me to shoot. But my best groups or let's say "six shot holes" were done with single action at 7-10yds. Once I get past 15yds I don't see my target so well any more and my groups open up. But 15-25 stay about the same as spread so I think it is my eyes, about 4-6" groups these days. At 63 I don't shoot as good as I used to but I keep trying.
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aaaaa said:
I guess because it was before my time but here it is: http://masbukti.com/ford/ford-mustang/1956-ford-mustang :)

I can stage the trigger dry firing, but when ever I try it at the range, it is a bit disturbing when it goes off while staging, but anyways i only do that pointed downrange. In SD I would not try staging, nor cocking if it could at all be helped.
Click to expand...
Lots of talk about shooting at the range but I tree stand hunted for years with an old style ruger 44 with a 10.5 inch barrel topped with a leupold 2X LER. Out to 100 yds with 296 powder and Sierra 300 grain SP it was one of the most accurate and deadly hand guns I have EVER shot. Cock it and squeeze it off for every shot, didn’t have to stage it. Same trigger feel every time, but I had done my own trigger job on it. And the age old saying “surprised when it went off”. I’m to old to carry them out of the mountains now, but sorry I don’t have it anymore.
 
Fascinating, and with a 2X scope on top!
By "tree stand hunted", does this mean the gun was on some kind of rest? 100 yards - wow.
Is this the gun that you used?



I need to take my model 28 to a gunsmith. I have made a few trips to the range with my Model 17-5, and the gun sits perfectly still in my hands as I work the trigger. My 28 wobbles back and forth as the trigger is moving. The only good thing from struggling with the heavy Model 28 is that by comparison, the Model 17 is a feather weight, and I can now dry-fire and shoot it one handed.
 
sounds like you need a k-38 target masterpiece (model 14) with a six inch barrel as you shoot the model 17 so well.

luck,

murf
 
Hi Murph, and please don't laugh too hard at me for this reply. I agree, and I bought an M-14 with 8" barrel last year, and I agree, it is one of my favorite guns, and I shoot it well (for me). I also own an old Python with 6" barrel, and I shoot that better than any of my other revolvers. I love it. Here's a target from my Model 14 from this past March:

upload_2022-7-12_13-9-26.jpeg


......but, stupid as it might sound, I bought the Model 28 possibly 20 years ago, long before I bought any "real" bullseye guns, and I got to where I thought I shot it acceptably well, single-action. Double-action - forget it. I know I'm too stubborn for my own good, and after watching Hickok45 shoot the 28 (actually, a pre-28) I'd like to get my gun working to the best of my ability. This includes double-action. I accept, and work on, my own limitations.

I found a video (actually, a full course) on how to do what I think it needs, and tried it myself, but I didn't do any of the things I didn't feel qualified to do. It made the gun better, but not what I hoped for. I let a fellow at a range in Fellsmere do a "trigger job" (stupidity on my part) and his definition of a trigger job was to loosen the strain screw. Dumb. Anyway, I learned my lesson, and have arranged for a local gunsmith who I respect and trust to do the work for me sometime soon. Here's the wonderful YouTube video I found:

 
6`7 W C-More Topazed.jpg

I do all my revolver shooting double action only. I don't shoot Bullseye, I shoot Steel Challenge but as you can see this gun can shoot tight groups. This is double action with a red dot sight on it.

I shot USPSA with my revolvers for 40 years and was competitive against the autos when stages were designed 6 shot neutral. That was a long time ago. When they went to 8 I still did well because I practiced my reloads.

The trick is to have a smooth double action. It doesn't have to be light but it has to be smooth so that you can pull straight through without moving your sights.
 
That is awesome!!!!!!

Which model is that?
How did you get to mount a red dot sight?
Very, very impressive!!!!!!
It says CCI SV, which is impressive.
What distance do they shoot at?

Part of me would love to mount a dot sight on one of my revolvers, but I haven't decided if I really want to do so, and even then, how I could do it. I'd probably use a Vortex Venom if I did. Your sight mount looks very professional.
 
mikemyers said:
Fascinating, and with a 2X scope on top!
By "tree stand hunted", does this mean the gun was on some kind of rest? 100 yards - wow.
Is this the gun that you used?



I need to take my model 28 to a gunsmith. I have made a few trips to the range with my Model 17-5, and the gun sits perfectly still in my hands as I work the trigger. My 28 wobbles back and forth as the trigger is moving. The only good thing from struggling with the heavy Model 28 is that by comparison, the Model 17 is a feather weight, and I can now dry-fire and shoot it one handed.
Click to expand...

That’s almost exact except mine had a 10.5 inch barrel. My tree stand is a stand- up/sit down climber and I used it in the mode where the tree was always in front of me, and that put the edge of the tree as my rest. It was usually the way I shot at my range - using a barricade rest. Best gun that I have ever owned.
 
AzShooter1 said:
View attachment 1089545

I do all my revolver shooting double action only. I don't shoot Bullseye, I shoot Steel Challenge but as you can see this gun can shoot tight groups. This is double action with a red dot sight on it.

I shot USPSA with my revolvers for 40 years and was competitive against the autos when stages were designed 6 shot neutral. That was a long time ago. When they went to 8 I still did well because I practiced my reloads.

The trick is to have a smooth double action. It doesn't have to be light but it has to be smooth so that you can pull straight through without moving your sights.
Click to expand...
Just like the man in the earlier video explained, except now I’m just too old to fight the wobble. Not too old to shoot, still fun and active.
 
mikemyers said:
Hi Murph, and please don't laugh too hard at me for this reply.
Click to expand...
nice to see your posts again after all this time. i'm not laughing, i just didn't see your mention of the model 14 in your previous posts. i didn't catch that until i reread this thread.

learning to accurately shoot double action is not reliant on the weapon. learn the basics and you can shoot any double action with accuracy, imo. to learn how to shoot da, i suggest this guy:

also, if your grip is consistent, you should only be concentrating on the front sight (not the alignment) and follow-through for every shot.

when dry-firing, pull the trigger back and keep squeezing after the hammer falls. watch where the front sight goes in relation to the rear sight. this will simulate recoil and will tell you what is happening during recoil. if this relationship does not vary, you can just watch the front sight while shooting.

luck,

murf

p.s. i bought my model 28 brand new in 1978. it was never as accurate as my dad's combat masterpiece, but is was dangged close.

p.s.s. also, suggest you aquire the book "fast and fancy revolver shooting" by ed mcgivern. i have it as a reference book and refer to it when my shooting "goes south".
 
Hello again, and thanks for all the info, both now and long ago.

A few quick answers and questions:
1 - in Double Action, most of my revolvers are smooth, and the gun remains stable as I do the trigger pull. My M28 literally "wobbles" because of the trigger pull. I think something is binding, but no idea what. It's fine for SA, and I can almost make it pull smoothly in DA, but nothing like my other guns. I figure it has been mis-treated at some point in its life, something a gunsmith ought to be able to straighten out.

2 - confused, how can I shoot precisely, focusing ONLY on the front sight, and not the sight picture? I'm referring to slow-fire, shooting for bullseye points. Next time at the range, I'll try it as you suggested.

3 - I bought Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting by Ed McGivern many years ago - fascinating, but maybe it would have been more help to me 60 years ago. I suspect I need better eyes and muscles and faster reflexes, but I did enjoy reading it. Hard to find it nowadays - I got an inexpensive copy, but if I want to really see all the illustrations, I'll need to buy an original.

I will watch the video you linked to again in a few minutes, but it will be as if Muhammed Ali were showing me a video on how to box. I'll watch it anyway. I don't think I have ever seen this specific video - just started watching, and I've already found some ideas that are better than what I've learned to do - and Jerry explains exactly WHY they are better. Thank You!!!

I am wide open for ideas over and beyond what I have already read or watched. The best ideas I have read to date are from Sgt. Keith Sanderson, on Dry Practice and Holding Drills:
 
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murf said:
learning to accurately shoot double action is not reliant on the weapon. learn the basics and you can shoot any double action with accuracy, imo. to learn how to shoot da, i suggest this guy:

also, if your grip is consistent, you should only be concentrating on the front sight (not the alignment) and follow-through for every shot.
Click to expand...
Murf, I separated that video into two parts, precision, and speed. For target shooting, for me, there is no need for speed, only precision. While most of those ideas Jerry mentions are for two-handed shooting, the basic concepts apply to all shooting, at least as I see it.

My plan is to include those ideas in my dry-firing sessions, and that will carry over to live firing.

I wil re-evaluate the grips/stocks I am using. I have one set left of the slim S&W revolver stocks, but they don't give me much control of the gun. Also, the stocks that came on my Old Army were so small, they didn't give me any control - the gun wanted to "squirm" in my hands. Altamont makes some Ruger stocks including for the Old Army, that make holding that gun as controllable and comfortable as with the large S&W target stocks.

I guess we need to decide on the main purpose of a gun before selecting stocks. I suspect most people just leave the stocks that came with the gun in place. I think the "stocks" are important - that's what gives us control of our gun. Since some of us have larger, or smaller, hands, does "one size fit all"?
 
"I suspect most people just leave the stocks that came with the gun in place."

To the contrary, most everyone I've ever known who is seriously interested in shooting ability (I would include yourself) finds replacement stocks/grips that fit their hand and shooting style better than factory stocks.

Dave
 
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