Single Action vs. Double Action

[9mmepiphany]

From the factory, that is on the low end. I usually expect an out of the box DA to run 12-14lbs

 

[mikemyers]

I didn't know that. Thanks!

I would feel better if the variation was between 12 and 14. But, here's the list of readings I wrote down.....

10 12 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 11 15 10 12 12 16 15 11 12 12 12 12 10 14 13 11

I was careful to do this pretty much the same way over and over, although the first 12 shots were with the gun pointing down. The rest were with the gun pointing out in front of me. I know the reading of 15 and 16 weren't "fake", as it was much harder to pull the measuring scale. That bothers me - it shouldn't suddenly get so tight like that. I've noticed it dry-firing, but until today, never had a way to measure it.

 

[StrawHat]

I didn't know that. Thanks!

I would feel better if the variation was between 12 and 14. But, here's the list of readings I wrote down.....

10 12 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 11 15 10 12 12 16 15 11 12 12 12 12 10 14 13 11

I was careful to do this pretty much the same way over and over, although the first 12 shots were with the gun pointing down. The rest were with the gun pointing out in front of me. I know the reading of 15 and 16 weren't "fake", as it was much harder to pull the measuring scale. That bothers me - it shouldn't suddenly get so tight like that. I've noticed it dry-firing, but until today, never had a way to measure it.

If a revolver is not clean, the offending bits of crud can increase the drag on the trigger. Places to check, under the extractor star, face of the cylinder and the back of the cylinder come to mind as areas that can cause the drag. Internally, any of the moving parts can pick up "bits" and cause drag. I would notice it in competition during the day. Sometimes I would be able to do a quick clean up and other times I would have to deal with it on the line. It is something to pay attention to and understand.

 

[David E]

I used it for five "rounds" of all six cylinders........I kept a list, for each cylinder....

For the sake of clarity and correctness....

YOUR REVOLVER ONLY HAS ONE CYLINDER!

The CHAMBERS are the holes machined into the cylinder to accept ammunition.

I suggest numbering the CHAMBERS to see if the harder pull(s) happen on the same CHAMBERS or not.

To emphasize a previous point, an oft overlooked culprit in situations like this is unburnt powder under the extractor.

 

[mikemyers]

Oops, me bad! I was so involved in what I meant, I didn't catch the way I was writing it.

No single chamber (not cylinder!!!) is causing the problem, as it seems to be random, but I will clean the gun, and then re-measure. In my mind, I was only thinking of what's going on under the side plate, but you are completely correct, there are more parts to consider.

 

[David E]

I wonder if your gauge is in the same spot each time. That can affect the pull/reading, also.

 

[mikemyers]

I wonder if your gauge is in the same spot each time. That can affect the pull/reading, also.

I tried very hard to use the same spot on the trigger each time, and I'm sure they are within 1/8" of each other.

If I want to get good at shooting DA, I think a better trigger pull is one of the things I need to look into.

I went to the range this morning with my Model 29 (with 2X scope), and 44 Special ammo, and the Model 28 with 38 Special ammo. One benefit from taking the larger gun - 50 rounds of shooting 44 ammo completely cured any intimidation problems I might have had before with the smaller gun. Of the six targets I shot at, all the holes were in the 6" bull, four targets had groups of 3", and two had 3 1/2". I left the range in a good mood. If anyone cares to look, not sure why anyone would, but the target is copied here: http://www.sgrid.com/2014/IMG_1327.JPG

For whatever it's worth, the scope on the model 29 accurately showed me the grouping I was about to get. I don't think I'll ever improve my accuracy until I learn how to hold the gun more steadily.

I was having so much fun shooting the larger gun SA, that I ran out of bullets before I remembered I wanted to also try it in DA. The trigger pull on that gun is smooth as can be.... and i got to wondering how well I could shoot it DA.

I'm still dry-firing every day I'm home for at least 20 minutes. I think from what many of you have been saying, dry-fire SA practice won't do very much to help get better at DA, but dry-fire DA practice should help both DA and SA. I think from now on, I concentrate on DA.

 

[mikemyers]

One technique ..... is to coat the parts is various places with an easy-to-remove-later dye called "Dykem." After reassembling the parts and cycling the action a few times the gun is disassembled again and note taken about where the dye has been rubbed off. This can be an enlightening experience, especially if you were about to polish something where it would have done absolutely no good. It can also tell you where parts are interfacing, as they should, or where they are not........

Just wondering - now that I have the Dykem, do I need to order the "Dykem Remover and Prep" or can I just use alcohol or something?

 

[Old Fuff]

Dykem Remover and Prep is a product to move money from your pocket to theirs. Any other number of easily obtained solvents found in paint or drug stores for far less cost will work fine.

Examples are denatured isopropyl alcohol, fingernail polish remover, acetone, etc.

If the part is coated with oil, wipe it dry. Usually the container of Dykem will have a small brush attached to the inside of the cap. Apply a thin coat and let it dry, which is almost in an instant. Put the sideplate back in place, but don't worry about the screws because thumb pressure should keep it is place. Two or three double-actions cycles should be enough.

Since you suspect the trigger/cylinder stop interface, assemble the cylinder stop (with spring), trigger, and rebound slide (and spring). While you cycle the trigger see if you feel any roughness or hitches. You only need to put the Dykem on those surfaces where they are likely to (or suppose to) contact each other. When finished, examine the parts that were coated with a magnifying glass. Where you can still see dye they're was no meaningful contact.

 

[mikemyers]

Thanks for the update. My plan was to check several surfaces (excluding anything that I now know not to touch!) that have one part sliding over another, and photograph all of them. The surface between the trigger and the cylinder stop I am 99.9% sure is anything but smooth - I know how much better it got, just from running a sharp screwdriver over it a few times, where I felt/noticed/saw a "notch". I think that will make a fascinating photograph.

I will also check the slide (easy to do, and I'm curious what it will look like), and probably both sides of the hammer, where I suspect it is rubbing on one of the sides as it moves backwards. I did buy a stone, but I have no plans to use it on anything until after I get feedback here.

I think one thing I will do somewhere on THR, is post something explaining how I take these photos. I've got all sorts of high-tech photo gear, but all the photos I've posted here were taken with a pocket Canon point-and-shoot camera. I used my computer to make the photos look as useful as possible, but anyone on THR can get similar photos if they have the patience. Doing the photos is 10000 times easier for me, than working on the gun ---- but the gun gets easier to work on, as I get more familiar with the explanations I read here.
​

My "to (not) do" list now includes the following things you've passed on:

• Coat all the surfaces with Dykem, and don't bother polishing anyplace where nothing was touching.
• Don't polish anything any more than necessary, as the hardened outer layer of the metal may be VERY thin.
• Don't touch any surface unless you know for a fact that it is a "safe" surface to work on.
• Put Dykem on, inspect, polish a little (not too much) and repeat process.
• Gun needs to be spotless inside before doing anything - any debris needs to be cleaned out, even if it's so small it's difficult to see.
• While considering what to do, follow the advice from Jerry in the S&W Manual, not some randon YouTube video.
• Do all this in a spotless area, with lots of light, and do not be in a hurry.

If I drop out of this discussion for a while, it's because I do volunteer work at an overseas hospital in India. I'm getting close to where I have to put away all my toys for a while, and prepare for my trip.

 

[BCRider]

I've never got around to buying any Dykem. Some years back I discovered that good ol' permanent felt markers do just fine as Dykem substitutes.

Things can often get complicated enough all on their own. No need to bypass simple solutions just to add on to life's complexity....

If the hammer is rubbing on the side then as long as the spots that rub are not burrs on the metal then leave them. They'll self burnish in time. Only stone away any burrs that stick up.

Here's a picture showing a block I made for the rebound block area of the frame on one gun I got which felt overly gritty. Once I got the side cover off it became pretty obvious that this gun had been shot VERY little or not at all. There was not even any of the usual use wear we should see from even a few hundred rounds being shot or an equivalent amount of dry firing. Rather than go through that I opted to make up the aluminium lapping block you see. If you look close you can see the very slight silvering of the machine mark crests. That's all I wanted to do. And the difference was highly noticeable in the trigger smoothness after the gun was put back together. That was the ONLY stone or other abrasive work I felt the gun needed. Other than this lapping I put in a Wolff spring kit.

The odd looking bit up in the top right corner is a close up inset of the lapped area showing how I only crested the peaks off the machining marks. The idea is to get the parts to rub evenly, Not to remove metal that leads to excess play. By just barely cutting off the peaks the block slides over each new crest evenly in line. It's sort of like rollers on a floor to catch and carry a big crate. And the valleys between the crests is a good place for oil to collect as a reservoir for this part.

I now know that there's a few other things I could do. But some 1000 to 1500 rounds later it's smoothened itself up.

 

[mikemyers]

I.......Here's a picture showing a block I made for the rebound block area of the frame on one gun I got which felt overly gritty......

I'm confused. I have seen people in the videos use a 1/4" square lapping stone to do that part of the gun, but you're suggesting using this aluminum block you made? I assume you would use it with some kind of polishing compound? If you're using an aluminum block against a steel surface, wouldn't the aluminum wear, rather than the steel? I think I'm missing something.

Speaking of lapping stones, does any lightweight oil work well for this, or is it better to use a specific type of oil? The lightest, thinnest oil I've got is "sewing machine oil".

 

[mikemyers]

Small update to this thread. I went shooting at the Fellsmere, Florida range a few days ago. I didn't get to trying the Model 28, but instead concentrated on the Model 29 Silhouette gun (ran out of time before I could get to the 357).

I am very surprised. I have always assumed that shooting SA would be more accurate than DA, but after firing about 75 rounds, neither was more accurate than the other. This is at 15 yards, and after shooting the first targets in SA, I expected everything to get much worse DA - but that didn't happen!


The other thing I noticed was that the center of the grouping using SA was about an inch higher than when shooting DA. I think this might have to do with my "thinking" so much about pressing smoothly on the trigger, and keeping the sight where it should be, that I don't have time for any bad habits to interrupt. Shooting SA even though I try not to know, but I'm sure I still do know when the gun is going to fire. Shooting DA this is no longer the case.

 

[Malamute]

Shooting SA even though I try not to know, but I'm sure I still do know when the gun is going to fire.

I was taught to let the trigger break be a surprise, pull so slowly you don't know it's going to go, the "surprise break". Shooting DA doesn't allow that so much for me, but its still quite possible to shoot DA very well when one is paying attention to all the basics.

Sounds like you're getting the hang of the DA shooting.

 

[mikemyers]

.......pull so slowly you don't know it's going to go, the "surprise break".........

Maybe it will sound quite silly, but it's as if my mind is so busy keeping the sight picture the way it's supposed to be, what with the gun wanting to wobble all over (yeah, not the gun, my hands), I'm so busy with that, that I am not thinking about when the gun will fire.

In SA, the gun wobbles because of me, and the inability to hold the gun absolutely still. In DA, I'm sure that's also a factor, but the gun also reacts to my pressing harder and harder on the trigger, and the sight picture starts to change, and the goal is to continually keep the sight picture correct.

If the sights are where they ought to be, the bullet will go right into the X.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Shooting DA doesn't allow that so much for me, but its still quite possible to shoot DA very well when one is paying attention to all the basics.

Using the correct technique in DA facilitates a surprise break, you just don't have to pull as slowly...and it happens over a longer trigger travel.

That is why top tier PPC shooters all converted to shooting the 50 yard stage DA, from SA

 

[murf]

you will squeeze harder on the ten pound da trigger than on the three pound sa trigger. the firmer grip of the da pull reduces muzzle rise relative to the sa pull and, therefore, prints lower on the target.

i would just make a note of it and not worry about it.

murf

 

[mikemyers]

Hi, a wee bit of feedback, and one question....

Went to the outdoor range in Fellsmere, Florida this morning, and wanted to try ideas from the book I bought, "The Perfect Pistol Shot" by Albert H League III.

Feedback from today:

• Shooting DA with the 357 again created noticeably tighter groups than shooting SA.
  
• My groups DA are lower than my groups SA (but thanks to the explanation above, I now understand why).
  
• As described in the book, I changed my grip so neither thumb touches the gun - I can't say the grouping got better, but it certainly didn't get worse.
  
• I also tried following the advice in the book about using only the left arm to support the weight of the right arm and the gun, along with lightening my grip with the right hand so all it really was doing was pressing on the trigger. When trying it with dry-fire last night, it was great - but not so good today.
  
• When I used up my 38 Special ammo, I changed to 44 Special in my Model 29 Silhouette gun. Left arm wasn't strong enough to hold the weight, so I had to use both arms somewhat. Firing DA, my grouping was as good as I've ever done, under 3". To me, it looked like one big ragged hole. It wasn't quite that nice close-up, but it's good enough that I feel like packing away all my other guns.

The Model 29, with that 10 5/8" barrel is so long and heavy, it feels very stable, and the results look good. Maybe with a LOT more practice, I'll be able to shoot the Model 28 with similar results. :-/

More seriously, I'm sure that what is limiting my group size is "me", and the only way I can think of to "see" what is going on, is to mount the Crimson Trace laser sight I bought a while back, and watch how much the red dot bounces around.



My only question - I have never, even once, been able to "watch the front sight" as I fire, to see what it did as the gun fires. I can almost do this with the 44, but anything else is too fast for me to watch. Any suggestions?

 

[MrBorland]

Good to hear you're enjoying DA shooting and doing well. Couple o' comments:

As described in the book, I changed my grip so neither thumb touches the gun - I can't say the grouping got better, but it certainly didn't get worse.

I'm a fan of the thumbs-off grip, but it's hard to imagine implementing it unless you're also using a thumbs-forward grip. Discussion of that (in the context of revolver shooting) is a red-hot topic, but if you're shooting magnum rounds I don't recommend it. I'd just hold your thumbs as they normally are, but be aware of any excess pressure you might be putting on the frame with them.

I also tried following the advice in the book about using only the left arm to support the weight of the right arm and the gun, along with lightening my grip with the right hand so all it really was doing was pressing on the trigger. When trying it with dry-fire last night, it was great - but not so good today.

I'm not a fan of asymmetrical and/or non-neutral grips and stances, and this sounds like one of those. I'd go for equal support with both arms, neither pushing or pulling, and a firm grip with both hands, getting the strong hand as high as possible.

More seriously, I'm sure that what is limiting my group size is "me", and the only way I can think of to "see" what is going on, is to mount the Crimson Trace laser sight I bought a while back, and watch how much the red dot bounces around.
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My only question - I have never, even once, been able to "watch the front sight" as I fire, to see what it did as the gun fires. I can almost do this with the 44, but anything else is too fast for me to watch. Any suggestions?

The front sight tells you everything you need to know, and IMO, you can do more harm in the long run when you practice getting your eyes off the front sight to watch a laser dot.

I agree what's limiting your group size is you, but the same can be said for everyone. You're doing great, but be patient with yourself and keep practicing.

As far as advice for calling your shots, I'd say "be curious". Forget about shooting a tight group; that's where your mind is, and not on the front sight. When we're genuinely curious about something, we just observe without value, judgement or demand. That's where learning happens. Just shoot into the berm or the backstop while simply watching to see what the front sight is doing. Later, you can put the target back up, but once again, shoot with curiosity, and you'll soon start to see a "polaroid" of the sight picture when the shot broke. Takes a lot of practice, though, so again, be patient with yourself and keep practicing.

 

[BCRider]

I'm confused. I have seen people in the videos use a 1/4" square lapping stone to do that part of the gun, but you're suggesting using this aluminum block you made? I assume you would use it with some kind of polishing compound? If you're using an aluminum block against a steel surface, wouldn't the aluminum wear, rather than the steel? I think I'm missing something.

Speaking of lapping stones, does any lightweight oil work well for this, or is it better to use a specific type of oil? The lightest, thinnest oil I've got is "sewing machine oil".

Sorry Mike, I missed your post.

I didn't elaborate on the block because I guess I assumed that folks would know that lapping involves an abrasive paste. But yeah, I apply some fine lapping compound, which is silicon carbide grit in a grease base, to the aluminium. The pressure of the lapping operation embeds the grit into the softer aluminium and the block becomes an abrasive tool. For this to work the cutting block MUST be softer than the material being shaped or it won't work.

I used this block because I wanted to flatten not only the open area but the spots on either side of the pin so the rebound block is traveling on a truly flat area. Some folks poke the end of a small stone into that spot and rub the area so it looks the same. But because the stone is so small and it can't reach around the pin the resulting crests on the machine marks won't be fully even or in line with each other. So the lapping block is actually a better way to do this work and in this case. At leas unless one were to diamond cut a stone to do just this job.

Pretty much any thin body oil will work with oil stones. If the oil is too thick on larger surfaces it tends to float the stone so it feels like you're not cutting. And it's true that you're not. With small parts thick or thin oils work just as well since the pressure pushes the oil out of the way.

The oils job is strictly to float away the particles of metal that would otherwise clog the stone. It's not there to lubricate the metal.

That help?

 

[mikemyers]

......I assumed that folks would know that lapping involves an abrasive paste.......

Shows you how little of this stuff I know. Now that you mention it, I remember more about lapping, but my brain was focused on the tool you made replacing the stone, and when I put 2+2 together, I got 5. Now it all makes perfect sense, and it sounds like a wonderful little device that someone could start selling. When might you open your mail order service, for hundreds, or thousands of them??

 

[mikemyers]

Good to hear you're enjoying DA shooting and doing well......

I'm enjoying DA far more than SA, even on my 28, which feels like the trigger is getting smoother every time I shoot it (but it's far from being like my other guns.

I'm a fan of the thumbs-off grip, but it's hard to imagine implementing it unless you're also using a thumbs-forward grip. Discussion of that (in the context of revolver shooting) is a red-hot topic, but if you're shooting magnum rounds I don't recommend it. I'd just hold your thumbs as they normally are, but be aware of any excess pressure you might be putting on the frame with them.

I'll have to check out those discussions, if I can find them, but what the book said made perfect sense - all the thumbs can do is move the gun out of alignment. I keep the thumbs pointing forwards, but not touching the gun. I'm not sure what else to do with them.....

I'm not a fan of asymmetrical and/or non-neutral grips and stances, and this sounds like one of those. I'd go for equal support with both arms, neither pushing or pulling, and a firm grip with both hands, getting the strong hand as high as possible.

That makes more sense to me - but when dry-firing, using the left arm to support the weight seemed to work splendidly! Not so much though when I tried it with a loaded gun..... His reasoning is that if all the shooting hand has to do is press on the trigger, it will do so more smoothly than if those muscles are also holding the gun up. What you suggest is what I've been trying to do until today....

.......Forget about shooting a tight group.........Just shoot into the berm or the backstop while simply watching to see what the front sight is doing..........and you'll soon start to see a "polaroid" of the sight picture when the shot broke. Takes a lot of practice, though, so again, be patient with yourself and keep practicing.

Sometimes I wonder if my eyes are fast enough to actually notice this, but it sounds like a fascinating thing to try. Today, the 44 stayed right where it was, but the 28 moved around like an insect trying to escape, as the trigger was pulled backwards, and I was constantly correcting the sights.

 

[MrBorland]

Sometimes I wonder if my eyes are fast enough to actually notice this,

Again, you're jumping to the conclusion there's something wrong with you. If you have normal vision (even if corrected with glasses), there's likely nothing wrong with your eyes. You actually see with your brain, via your eyes. And your subconscious thought is much faster than your conscious thought. You may actually be seeing the sight picture as the shot goes off but either aren't tapping into it and/or you're demanding too much precision too soon in your calling.

Right now, you really only need to "see" well enough to call it "good" or "bad". Imagine flipping through a book looking for a name or phrase: Without even thinking about it, you quickly assign a "yes" or "no" to each snap picture you pick up.

Can you currently tell (without looking at the target) if you just shot a "bad" shot? If so, you're already on your way to calling your shots. Once you start consistently calling them "good", you can start refining it to calling "very good".

It takes practice and patience, though. If you post next week saying you've been working on it diligently, can't do it, and something must be wrong, I'm just gonna roll my eyes. If you say the same thing next year, I might agree.

 

[mikemyers]

.....Can you currently tell (without looking at the target) if you just shot a "bad" shot? If so, you're already on your way to calling your shots. ........

I've always thought my eye-hand coordination was slow, which is why I am pathetically bad at many things, as something is all over and done with before I can react. So yeah, my first thought was that maybe it's my eyes, BUT the line i quoted above is very interesting - and YES, I very often CAN tell when I think I did well, and not. So, you want me to re-enforce that, and that's the key. I think I mis-understood what you were suggesting I do, as in being able to see anything even a split second after the BANG, such as the sight rising up, which I can't right now. I'll start concentrating on what you suggested with each shot. Seeing and remembering the sight picture at the instant the gun goes BANG sounds reasonable.

For what it's worth, I spent several hours thinking through why trying to follow Albert H League III's advice about using only the left arm to support the gun not only didn't work for me, it made me much worse. I thought I had it all sorted out in my car, and just tried my test. I picked up the Model 28 with my right hand, as if to shoot it single handed. The front sight moved around quite a bit. I then picked the gun up with my left hand - it moved far more, as my left arm is even worse about supporting all this weight. When I picked it up using two hands, the sight still moved around, but nowhere even close to as much. My conclusion - unless I take Popeye pills for my arms, or get a lighter gun, this technique wouldn't work for me. Besides, I like your idea of support from both sides of one's body.

 

[MrBorland]

YES, I very often CAN tell when I think I did well, and not. So, you want me to re-enforce that, and that's the key.

+100

I think I mis-understood what you were suggesting I do, as in being able to see anything even a split second after the BANG, such as the sight rising up, which I can't right now.

I've been thinking more about this and realize my previous post might be confusing, so I wanted to follow up some:

I might've mentioned I started working on my rifle skills this year (I'm shooting my first High Power rifle match tomorrow ), and I've gotten to the point where I can tell where, almost exactly, the shot went into at 200 yards while standing unsupported. It took practice, but I now see a clear "polaroid" when the shot breaks. The thing is, I've never been able to call shots this well with a revolver. The best I could do was "very good", "ok", "not great", and...well...you get the picture.

So what gives? Why can I call the shot with a rifle much more precisely than I ever could with a DA revolver? I think the answer is "shutter speed". The DA trigger's got a long travel, so my mental "shutter" is open for a long time. Lots goes on during that travel, including the instant the shot breaks. So...take a picture of moving object with a long shutter and what do you get? A fuzzy picture. In contrast, the rifle trigger's got very little travel and it's got a clean break; my "shutter's" open very briefly, so the mental polaroid is sharp.

Anyhoo...that you're able to tell a good shot from a bad just by watching the front sight is very good news. Kudos. All you need is a little refinement. But (and I'd be interested in 9mmE's take on this), I'm not sure it's feasible to get such a crisp "polaroid" shooting DA, nor do I think you need to, even to shoot excellent DA groups.

I then picked the gun up with my left hand - it moved far more, as my left arm is even worse about supporting all this weight

Yeah, that was kind of my issue - you'd be unnecessarily overloading one arm. A smooth DA stroke is certainly do-able while your strong arm helps support the gun and your strong hand applies a firm grip.