Single Action vs. Double Action

[mikemyers]

.....There are only about 3 men still alive that I'd let work on my Pythons

Thanks, I will call Walt, and see if he can recommend someone in the Miami area.

Regarding what you wrote about Pythons - for many years, I wanted so much to buy one, having missed out 30 years ago when it was right in front of me in the showcase at the local gun store.... but the more I read now, it's like you said - and when all the experts are gone or retired, what then? I guess the gun would just be an "antique", and not used......

 

[Old Fuff]

If you are talking to a retail gun shop gunsmith (or for that matter anyone else) ask him if he has a range rod.

A range rod is a gauge used to check concentricity between a chamber and the bore. It looks like a cleaning rod with a big plug on the end. If he says, "no" or "never heard of such a thing" go somewhere else. If you don't know what it is, look it up in your new manual.

 

[mikemyers]

.....A range rod is a gauge used to check concentricity between a chamber and the bore. It looks like a cleaning rod with a big plug on the end. If he says, "no" or "never heard of such a thing" go somewhere else. If you don't know what it is, look it up in your new manual.

Something else I never knew existed before today...

http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...s/range-rods/revolver-range-rods-prod655.aspx

Shown on page #91, Book 2.

It's affordable, but I'm not sure what I would do if i thought I had a problem - but as a test to see if the gunsmith was someone I wanted to use, I like your idea.

 

[Malamute]

With the Smiths that have the firing pin mounted in the hammer, you can cock the empty gun and look through the firing pin hole in the frame from each side of the hammer and see the exact alignment of the chamber throat with the barrel. Point it at a light source. You can see minor discrepancies that a range rod wont pick up. Do it for each of the chambers and you can see how consistent the gun is overall. Once in a while you'll see one or two chambers out a bit, but not enough to spit lead. That will often show as lead buildup on the side of the forcing cone, It takes being pretty far out of alignment for it to show with a range rod.

 

[Old Fuff]

I think that if you check with Smith & Wesson you will find that they don't check bore/chamber concentricity by eyeball. But you might explain your method to them. I mean, what do they know?

Then they're is the alternative way favored by some where you have the light at the back and look down the bore...

Anyway, any trained, experienced S&W armorer or gunsmith will know what a range rod is, and will usually have one - or more for different calibers.

 

[Malamute]

I'm not an armorer or gunsmith, and don't check large numbers of guns. Looking through the firing pin hole is simple, free, and works. Its allowed me to pass on buying several guns that weren't consistently aligned. Its probably all the average user and part time gun tinkerer needs to do a basic check. That's all I need of it, and it does that well.

I have looked at guns that had range rods used on them and passed, and could still see some misalignment. It was probably "in spec", but was noticeable when looking. Most Smiths are very well centered and consistently aligned with all chambers.

It is possible to use a light reflected off the firing pin from the side on frame mounted firing pin revolvers to see chamber alignment. The hammer has to be fully down and the pin extended through the frame, it it does work. Again, its probably not practical to check large numbers of guns, but its simple, free, and works.

 

[mikemyers]

I think both of you are correct. If you look at the link I posted up above, for 357 Midway has two Range Rods, one for general use, and one for much tighter tolerances for competition. My impression (based on other types of things) is that if you know what to look for, and know how to look, the human eye can detect things quite well for many applications, but you'll reach a point where the eye can't tell, and the more precision range rod would still be able to find the error.

I didn't know anything about this until tonight, but I guess if I was buying a used handgun tomorrow, I'd look for this, to see if it was obviously out of spec. On the other hand, if I sent my gun in to S&W, or had a gunsmith work on it, I think I'd expect him to use tools like this to verify that all is well.

Actually I think any technician at S&W would go through a lot of checks like this, to make sure the gun was totally within ALL specifications.

-------------------------------------------------------

I can't stop thinking about the trigger job video I watched earlier:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4GtXq2XXOI
At some point, I'd like to buy a set of stones, and do the "easy" things that Terry Gardner (if I spelled that right???) did in the video. The video is half an hour long, and at least half of it seems to be "common sense" type things that one can do. He points out things to never do, and some of the more complicated things he does, I think I would avoid.

Old Fuff is right - but if I don't polish my cylinder stop, so I don't do anything wrong, I would like someone else to do it. It feels night-and-day better, but side by side with one of my other revolvers, it is definitely not as smooth.

 

[Old Fuff]

Actually I think any technician at S&W would go through a lot of checks like this, to make sure the gun was totally within ALL specifications.

And you would be right. First they want to be sure your diagnose is right, and second, they want to catch all of the problems.

And yes, they do have jigs, fixtures and gages used if necessary in inspections, that you won't find in other shops. To perhaps a lesser degree the same can be said about 'smiths that specialize in S&W revolver work. If they didn't do a lot of it the tooling cost would be prohibitive.

Old Fuff is right -

Of course he is...

but if I don't polish my cylinder stop, so I don't do anything wrong, I would like someone else to do it. It feels night-and-day better, but side by side with one of my other revolvers, it is definitely not as smooth.

Big hint: Before you pick up that stone it just might be a good idea to use some Dykem (or a wide-tip felt pen in a pinch) to determine exactly where the trigger and cylinder stop (particularly the latter) are touching. You can polish until you are blue in your face, but it won't do a bit of good if the parts aren't touching where you propose to polish in the first place.

 

[mikemyers]

......Before you pick up that stone it just might be a good idea to use some Dykem to determine exactly where the trigger and cylinder stop (particularly the latter) are touching. You can polish until you are blue in your face, but it won't do a bit of good if the parts aren't touching where you propose to polish in the first place.

Today's a confusing day, and while I *know* I tried to order some Dykem several weeks ago from Midway, I never received it, and they can't find it on their previous orders, so apparently it got dropped during my rather long conversations with them. I should have already had it, but since I don't, it's now on order (again?).


Second point of confusion, is I was all set to go to a local gunsmith to get his opinion, right after visiting Florida Gun Range this morning. I went there with my Highway Patrolman (which I'm not satisfied yet with how the trigger feels) and my 19-3 which feels as good as any gun I've ever tried. The guy I signed in with at the range is one of the people there who I consider very knowledgeable, and I asked them if they had a gunsmith at the range. He gave me a card for a local gunsmith they recommend, and in talking to him, I asked his opinion of my gun. After looking it over and dry-firing it, he told me it doesn't need anything - it's just the way it should be! He thought it was very good, and suggested I not do anything to change it. He didn't even think the trigger pull was excessive. I showed him my 19-3, which to me feels absolutely perfect, and he said that guns are not the same, and I shouldn't expect one S&W to feel like another. (Maybe I'm just too stubborn, but I do expect that a good gunsmith can get my Highway Patrolman just as good, if not better, than my 19-3.)



That leaves me with two likely scenarios; either my Highway Patrolman is more than "good enough", and I shouldn't worry about the things I think I feel/hear, or I'm being a lot more sensitive to this than he is, and a good gunsmith would eliminate the roughness that I'm aware of.

......for whatever reason(s), I did better at the range with that gun today, than I've ever shot before with this gun. That was unexpected, but made me feel pretty good about all this work.

 

[Gun Master]

SA vs DA

Oppppps! I thought this was an autoloader thread.

I don't like DAO in wheelie or semi - but that is a whole another discussion!

 

[Old Fuff]

Before you pick up that stone it just might be a good idea to use some Dykem (or a wide-tip felt pen in a pinch) to determine exactly where the trigger and cylinder stop (particularly the latter) are touching. You can polish until you are blue in your face, but it won't do a bit of good if the parts aren't touching where you propose to polish in the first place.

I understand about the Dykem. You may or may not have a store in your area that supplies machine shops. Look in the yellow pages and/or use a search engine and the key words: layout dye (and then include your ZIP code).

Or the alternative: Go to any office supplies store or department in a big-box store, and buy a wide-tip felt-tip pen - of the kind used to write big signs on poster board. Color doesn't matter so long as it contrasts with the parts so that you can clearly see it. Use the pen to coat those areas of the parts you propose to polish. In this particular instance reassemble the cylinder stop & spring, trigger and rebound slide and spring. Cycle the trigger a few times and then disassemble again and look at the parts you previously coated to see if the ink/dye has been rubbed off and if so precisely where. A magnifying glass often helps (as do your close-up photographs). So long as you only use your eyeballs you won't get into trouble.

When it comes to double-action revolvers and trigger pulls, each one is a law onto itself. However they're is no reason that an K, L or N-frame can't have equal pulls. The little J-frame is another matter. But understand that a lot of things besides the lockwork can come into play. As a single example, a .38/.357 N-frame cylinder is larger and heavier then one in a K-frame, and one of the things the trigger has too do is (working through the hand and cylinder ratchet) rotate the cylinder. Bigger/heavier vs. smaller/lighter may be harder to rotate. But this is an issue - like most issues - that can be overcome.

 

[MrBorland]

Maybe I'm just too stubborn, but I do expect that a good gunsmith can get my Highway Patrolman just as good, if not better, than my 19-3.

You're a trigger snob. Unfortunately, it's a rare gunsmith who is as well. You're doomed, and I feel your pain. I'm a (recovering?) trigger snob, too. 'Tis a lonely road.

 

[mikemyers]

Well, the Dykem will be here by the end of next week, so I'll wait and try it. I guess what you're saying is that I can put it on lots of parts and surfaces, and see (photograph) what they look like after cycling the gun what, a dozen times or so?

I also bought a pack of 'snap caps', mostly because of Jerry's comments in the S&W book.

At some point, I'll either try to do the polishing myself, or find someone I trust who will just "do" the whole thing, but most of the time today, the gun was shooting better than I've ever done before. I think my advice for myself is to forget working on the gun, and spend all that time dry-firing instead.

.....You're doomed.....

It's something I've been stuck with my whole life. I expect my computer to crash, my motorcycles to have some kind of failure, and the guns to find any way they can to complicate life for me. It's like I have a hair trigger somewhere in my brain, and any sound that suddenly is "different", or anything mechanical that feels just slightly different, or a computer that suddenly seems to take more time than earlier, is just a warning about something about to go 'boom'. Even racing r/c cars, if you're sensitive to that kind of thing, you know something is about to go wrong before it actually does. Sometimes it's good, as it's a lot easier and cheaper to fix something before the 'boom'!

When I brought my gun to Will for cleaning, I tried to point out what I thought was 'wrong', but he never got my message, or noticed what I was trying to explain - he felt "we" needed to clean the gun, and put in lighter springs. Heck, that's what the last gunsmith told me on the phone yesterday! .....but in Jerry's book, he goes through a very complete list of things to check over before you even think of opening up the gun. I wish more others followed that advice.

While I'm in this kind of mood, I wonder how many people out there, who think nothing of working on their S&W, have ever seen, let alone bought, Jerry's book? Maybe that's human nature - would explain why a cruise ship captain could drive his perfectly good ship right into a rock. :-(

 

[Old Fuff]

Well, the Dykem will be here by the end of next week, so I'll wait and try it. I guess what you're saying is that I can put it on lots of parts and surfaces, and see (photograph) what they look like after cycling the gun what, a dozen times or so?

Well if you are going to take off a week (which in my opinion is a good idea) use the time to poke around in the book you already have.

I knew one highly respected 'smith that did start out by going to a complete disassembly and coating the inside of the frame, the moving parts, and inside of the sideplate with Dykem. The purpose was to see whatever he saw to get an idea of what was needed. But this didn't mean he grabbed a stone (or something else abrasive) and started polishing metal. Again for example when he found rub marks on the side of the hammer nose (firing pin) he corrected the problem with a thin, washer called a "hammer bearing" (you can find it in your manual) that moved the hammer over and centered it where it was supposed to be. He also checked to be sure the hammer and trigger studs (the pins on which those two parts rotate) were straight, because if they weren't the hammer or trigger (whichever or both) would be tilted and this would affect how they interacted at contact points. I could go on and on....

But normally he would only coat a surface he was planning to work on or suspected something was wrong, rather then paint everything in sight. When he was done he might use a second coat - after cleaning off the first - to confirm he'd accomplished what he intended.

What all this did was prevent wasting time and effort where it wasn't needed and would accomplish nothing worthwhile. What I hope you are noticing is that those who do this kind of work to make a living don't always follow what you read on the Internet. In and of itself with nothing more, polish the parts and change the springs is not a good way to go.

 

[Gun Master]

Local Competent Honest Gunsmiths

I'm having problems with the above mentioned.

Any good names and addresses available ?

 

[mikemyers]

I'm having problems with the above mentioned.
Any good names ..... available ?

Old Fuff? Maybe you send things to him, along with a check for a one week vacation in Hawaii, and he'll do the work for you..... <grin>

 

[mikemyers]

.........What I hope you are noticing is that those who do this kind of work to make a living don't always follow what you read on the Internet........

Actually, to be honest, what I've been noticing is the reverse - that many people posting on the internet don't follow what actual gunsmiths do, and certainly don't follow Jerry's instructions in his book on the S&W (maybe because they don't really understand the reason for doing those things).

In my opinion, which doesn't count for much, there's more useful information in this one thread than what I've learned from 100 or so posts elsewhere on the internet, and I think those people posting that stuff should read what's been posted here.

I think it's like many things in my life - the more you learn about something, the more you find out that you either didn't know or misunderstood --- and the more you think many of the other people you used to listen to don't really know what they're talking about.

===========================================

I like your advice about reading Jerry's book - I'm not exactly reading through the whole book from the beginning, but looking into things that I thought I understood a little, and mostly finding out I was still in "kindergarten" level. Maybe I've now made it into the second grade....


From you guys, and the book, and the videos, I think I might do what you suggested above, but only one or two parts at a time. For example, concentrate only on the slide and the cylinder stop. Next, I know I have radial marks on the gun, caused by the trigger going back and forth. I will post that photo, and maybe your advice about the shim will minimize that.

 

[Old Fuff]

Actually, to be honest, what I've been noticing is the reverse - that many people posting on the internet don't follow what actual gunsmiths do

What I hope you are noticing is that those who do this kind of work to make a living don't always follow what you read on the Internet.

I think we said the same thing, but in reverse order. Or maybe I'm getting old and confused.

 

[Old Fuff]

Local Competent Honest Gunsmiths. I'm having problems with the above mentioned.

This is a problem all over, as older ones retire and younger ones don't see the kind of money they'd like to make.

What in particular is your problem with what make and model of firearm? Also understand that the best are well backordered and you may face a long wait. If you don't want to post details on a public forum use THR's personal message option.

Any good names and addresses available ?

Maybe, but none of them would like me to connect their name to what was previously a confidential technique.

 

[mikemyers]

More and more reading of Jerry Kuhnhausen's book on the S&W revolver. I've now got several questions. My first thought was to type them in right here, but if this was my forum system, I'd recommend starting a new thread.

I'll start posting them here, but if you guys feel it's better to do so in a new thread, I'll create one if nobody beats me to it.

 

[mikemyers]

Re-assembly and testing of S&W revolvers...

In Jerry Kuhnhausen's "The S&W Revolver" book, on page 54, in reference to re-installing the Main Spring, he writes "Tension the hammer screw until the hammer cocks normally." No place that I have found yet where it says to tighten it (the strain screw??) more than that, let alone bottom it out.

 

[mikemyers]

Re-assembly and testing of S&W revolvers...

The instructions given to me by everyone in this thread, is that you need to keep track of where every part came from, and put it back in the same place, including the three side plate screws. However, every other place on the internet where people talk about this, they say two screws are the same, and one has a different head.

The opinions in this thread match what Jerry wrote: "The flat headed screw goes to the rear for grip clearance. Keep the yoke screw in place; it has been fit to the yoke slot."

 

[mikemyers]

Re-assembly and testing of S&W revolvers...

On page 59, Jerry writes, in BOLD font: "Pushing on the back of the hammer with moderate thumb pressure must not disengage the single action sear. Do not fail to make this check."

It's scary, to me, that I'm finding things in this book that have been emphasized as very important, that I get the feeling people just are not aware of. (Or, maybe everyone already knows this stuff, and it's just me who isn't aware of that much yet.....)

 

[9mmepiphany]

"Tension the hammer screw until the hammer cocks normally." No place that I have found yet where it says to tighten it (the strain screw??) more than that, let alone bottom it out.

Let me ask this question.

Does it say not to bottom it out?
Have you considered that normal and bottomed out are the same?

While Jerry has a well known reputation, it isn't the final word in working on S&W revolvers. I think we can safety take the word of revolversmiths like Ron Power, Frank Glenn, Bill Davis and Randy Lee at their face value that the screw should be bottomed out

It's scary, to me, that I'm finding things in this book that have been emphasized as very important, that I get the feeling people just are not aware of. (Or, maybe everyone already knows this stuff, and it's just me who isn't aware of that much yet.....)

I wouldn't make such a broad statement as everyone else already knows, but everyone I know who shoots a revolver seriously knows. It is certainly something I check when I pick up a freshly tuned revolver

 

[mikemyers]

......Does it say not to bottom it out?
Have you considered that normal and bottomed out are the same?.....

No, it does not say not to bottom it out. It only says what I quoted up above. Have I considered that? Sure. I satisfy both what it says in the book, and the people posting here, by leaving it bottomed out.

Until ten minutes ago, I couldn't post any useful feedback here, as I had no way to measure how stiff or soft my trigger pull was/is.

My new RCBS "high-range trigger tension scale" arrived an hour ago, and I can now measure trigger pull. I used it for five "rounds" of all six cylinders, and the measurements ranged from a low of 10 pounds to a high of 16 pounds. Most of the time, the scale read 10 or 11 pounds. This is with a stock mainspring, and a standard return spring (which has a nominal rating of 18 pounds). (Before anyone asks, I kept a list, for each cylinder, and the pattern of when it's soft or stiff seems to be completely random....)



As to what, if anything, to do about it, the choices include:

• do nothing, and leave it as-is
• replace the return spring with a lighter one
• replace the main spring with a lighter one from Wolff
• use my just-arrived bottle of Dykem to find out what may be binding
• go back to looking for a gunsmith, to polish parts as needed
• shoot this gun SA mostly, and eventually I'll learn enough to work on it myself.