Single Action vs. Double Action

[Old Fuff]

See post #175

Now look at the rebound slide and notice it has a slot in it at the back. When the slide is in its assembled position a stud (pin) fits inside that slot. When fully assembled the spring is supposed to be trapped in front of the stud.

Most reassembly tools are designed so they can push the spring far enough inside the slide so that the slot in the tool will allow the slide to be dropped into a fully assembled position with the spring depressed enough to be in front of the stud and then the tool withdrawn. I've used any number of modified screwdrivers too, and yes - they will work. But I believe you will find the one from Brownells is easier and a bit quicker, especially with full strength springs.

I complement you on your photography (and am a bit jealous too ) but remember the enlarged images also make tool marks and imperfections look worse then they really are. Also never reach for a stone or other polishing tool before you use Dykem (or a wide felt-tip pen) to check exactly what and where one part is actually touching another. Otherwise you can make something worse rather then better even if both are smoother. If they aren't in contact the way they should be (and they're can be a number of reasons for this) you aren't accomplishing anything.

 

[mikemyers]

If I was going to make my own tool to do this job, I know what I'd do - make a tool that has two small notches in either side to catch the spring, and a large notch in the middle, to go over the pin. I don't know how I would ever make such a device though.....

I tried to find good photos of how to use the Brownells tool. All I found was this link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0nUJePqV_U

My gut feeling is that this guy is using the tool incorrectly - it looks to me like the tool should be held sideways, so the notch in the tool presses against the left side of the spring, and there is all that "open area" allowing the spring to be pushed beyond the pin.

If the guy in the video is doing what I think he's doing, it would be durn near impossible! IMHO.

 

[mikemyers]

I've got another question, something I was unaware of until tonight. While looking around for other things I wanted to read about, I found this link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=eBxEBgJBG0MC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=how+to+use+brownells+tool+to+compress+a+rebound+slide+spring&source=bl&ots=VivoihM4M_&sig=c0PPkVA7q0dcSGjAILzy91QNZi0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_z7HU_WzB4SMyASp5oHgBA&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=how%20to%20use%20brownells%20tool%20to%20compress%20a%20rebound%20slide%20spring&f=false

.......verrrrrry long URL. The Gun Digest Book of Smith & Wesson. Anyway, on the bottom of page #54, there is a warning under "Cylinder Cleaning" to those who shoot mostly 44 Special in a 44 Magnum, or as I'm doing now, 38 Special in a gun made for 357. "Powder Residue and Bullet Shavings" builds up on the front of the cylinder, that may make it difficult, or impossible, to extract the casings of a more powerful round, if you ever decide to try some more powerful rounds (as I thought I might do soon). Should I be purchasing a "Chamber Cleaning Reamer"?

(When I go to the range, I normally load only three 38 Special bullets, and leave three cylinders empty. I thought I might load four rounds, three of 38 Special and one of 357 Magnum, randomly mixed, and see how well I'm still controlling the gun.)

 

[303load]

The purpose of this thread is not to ask the difference between Single and Double Action (http://www.diffen.com/difference/Single_Action_vs_Double_Action). It's to ask which to use, given the choice, for target practice.

On the one hand, I've always been told that single action allows more accurate target shooting, which I fully believe. On the other hand, I just watched this very interesting video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3z2mfpLs_mQ

In the video, it is suggested that shooting single-action on a double action revolver isn't doing anything to help develop good trigger control.

What I'm asking here, is while I enjoy SA targets more than what I can accomplish with DA, is it better to simply ignore that, and shoot DA all the time?

(My own compromise might be to do both for dry firing, and SA at the range.)

I shoot both. DA Improves everything across the board whether a semi or revolver. Jmo

 

[Malamute]

They make slightly larger chamber brushes to help clean chambers. Its more of an issue with revolver chambers when shooting shorter cases. Bore brushes don't fit chambers that well, at least when it comes to cleaning out the carbon ring from shooting 38 spls much. I've used the next size larger bore brushes for chambers also.

I've used (carefully!) a small pocket knife blade to help clean the carbon ring out when regular cleaning wasn't really getting it all. I do it at a very shallow angle and very gently, right on the carbon. I've not had a problem doing it, but its sort of a last resort for stubborn crud buildup. The 357 is one caliber I dont like leaving not perfectly clean, as they are carry guns, left loaded with magnum loads. After shooting 38's, I'm not happy until the chambers are spotlessly clean and zero carbon ring from 38's.

I don't shoot spls in the 44, just lighter loads in magnum cases. If I had as many 357 cases as I do 38's, I wouldn't use spl cases either, but buckets of spl cases are hard to ignore. Most were free or nearly so.

 

[MrBorland]

No need for a chamber reamer or other heroics (e.g. chucking up a brass brush in a drill). Just keep your cylinder (face and chambers) clean with regular and sensible cleanings, and you'll have no trouble switching between .38spls .357mags.

 

[mikemyers]

Two interesting bits of information, as a follow-up on this discussion.


I had a long talk with the fellow I bought this gun from. I thought he bought it new, just like other guns he had purchased. It turns out this was already a used gun, so even though he hadn't shot it all that much, it likely had a LOT of use before he ever got it.

Also, my copy of "The S&W Revolver, A Shop Manual, by Jerry Kuhnhausen" arrived last night. Very impressive, and a little scary. I think I'll learn more about the way the gun works from (trying to) read and understand it, but 99% of it is way over my head. I looked up the information on the problem that we finally fixed, and while I didn't find this listed as one of the issues to be corrected, on page 87, figure 137 shows the cylinder stop, with a note referring to the surface that I had "fixed" that reads says it needs to be polished. Had I removed the cylinder stop, and polished the very rough surface that I was dealing with, I think the problem would have been solved, and maybe would last a lot longer than my "fix", which removed the "notch/burr", but didn't polish anything....



A question for you guys - you mentioned that it's very important not to damage parts because replacement parts might be impossible to find. Am I wrong in wanting to buy the second "cylinder stop" from the shop, just to have it around as a spare for the future? ......and as a related question, the instructions from Jerry are to custom fit and polish this part - apparently you don't just buy a new one and drop it in place. So, you don't just buy a new part like this cylinder stop and install it - it has to be custom fitted and polished?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Pretty much the only parts that will just "drop in" are the MIM parts on the newer guns...at least that is what Randy at Apex Tactical says.

The original parts on older guns were never meant to just drop in without hand fitting

 

[Malamute]

I keep some spare parts around, but have never had to replace a cylinder stop. I don't recall hearing of them needing replacing, though I'm sure they do at some point. My K-22 has well over 200k rounds through it and has never needed any parts other than when the thumb piece nut fell off and got lost. The heavier cylinder of the N frame 357's have more rotational momentum, they may wear stops, but I haven't replaced any on any of the 44's I've had.

Check with Brownells for parts, they usually have a lot of Smith factory parts. Get their catalog. Its much simpler to find things in the catalog than on their web site. As great as Brownells is, "user friendly*" isn't what comes to mind when trying to find things on their web site, at least when I've looked. The catalog is well organized and indexed.

* I've searched Brownells web site for parts I KNEW they carried, but they didn't show on the web site. The catalog showed them, and the person answering the phone said they stock them, but they didn't appear on the web site with any amount of simple or creative searching, even with a Brownells part number.

 

[mikemyers]

......Check with Brownells for parts.....Get their catalog. ......

I have a catalog on the way, along with the spring tool and a few other things; It's coming by USPS, so maybe it will arrive next week.



I'm puzzled by something in Jerry Kuhnhausen's book on S&W - right up front on page #6 he says "DON'T dry fire any revolver without snap caps".

Just about everyone I've spoken with about this, and I think every article I've read, says that for a centerfire revolver, dry-firing on empty cylinders is fine.

Is Jerry just being overly cautious, so nobody accidentally dry-fires a '22 with nothing in the gun? .....or is Jerry aware of problems we will eventually have, or is Jerry's advice based on older guns, and no longer applies?

I went looking on the S&W website, and here's their answer to "Can I dry fire my S&W handgun?"

• Q: Can I dry fire my Smith & Wesson?
• A: Yes, except for the .22 caliber pistols which includes models 22A, 22S, 422, 2206, 2214, 2213 and 41. .22 caliber revolvers such as models 17, 43, 63, 317 and 617 also should not be dry fired.
• Q: Why can't I dry fire my .22 pistol or revolver?
• A: Dry firing a S&W .22 pistol or revolver will cause damage to the firing pin.

 

[Malamute]

I've never broken a part dry firing a Smith, but have slowed down dramatically in dry firing them. The recoil shield can get burred a bit with the hammer mounted firing pins, but doesn't seem to cause any real problems, or hasn't in my guns. I'm just more wary of dry firing without snap caps after breaking 3 transfer bars in Ruger single actions. I used to believe the common saying about them being indestructible, but experience has shown otherwise. Gunsmiths I've talked to have said they've replaced a number of transfer bars in Rugers, and the cowboy action shooters are aware of it as well. For some reason people get upset when the subject comes up though, sort of like insulting their mother.

Slight ramble,...but I think snap caps are relatively inexpensive insurance to keep your gun in good shape. They can be made from empty cases, decapped and the primer pocket filled with silicone caulk, or a section of O-ring that fits, cut to length and glued in. Regular empties with fired primers get peened down quickly and don't do much good after relatively few hits. I need to make some and get back in the dry fire habit.

Many of my guns are mountain carry guns, as well as personal protection guns. I'd prefer to limit the potential, however small, of breaking something like a firing pin and having one of those embarrassing moments when you hear "click" instead of Bang.

 

[mikemyers]

My Wheeler Trigger Pull Scale arrived.

• In SA mode, trigger pull is about 4.5 pounds.
• In DA mode, trigger pull goes off the scale, MUCH more than the 8 pounds maximum. I suspect that it will be around 18 pounds, as the slide return spring is named an "18 pound spring".

I'm trying to find a gunsmith in the Miami area, who can take a look at the gun, and make it feel smoother. Of all the calls I've made so far today, I get the feeling that everyone I talk to assumes I want to make the trigger pull lighter. That's not true though - what I told them, is that I'd like to keep everything "stock", and simply make it smoother.

(The gun feels FAR, FAR better than when I entered this thread, and I understand it MUCH better than ever before, but what I've learned first from you guys, and now even more so from Jerry Kuhnhausen's book, is that I don't know enough to do much more. The more I read, the more complex everything seems.)


None of the people I've spoken to on the phone have agreed to let me watch them do whatever it is they're going to do. I haven't given up on that, but maybe it's not going to happen.

One of the nearby gunsmiths said I could show him the gun assembled, but he wouldn't be able to look inside the gun right then, and when I offered to bring the gun to him disassembled, he said that would also be fine, but that he obviously couldn't feel the action. Which would be best - bringing the gun in fully assembled, or with the side plate off and various parts in plastic zip bags?

If anyone here knows of a good gunsmith in South Florida, who would work on it as I watched (and maybe charge me a bit more?), that would still be my preference.

 

[Malamute]

I would doubt that the actual pull weight is 18 lbs, the trigger pull weight isn't directly related in pull weight to the rebound slide spring weight. You have a mechanical advantage with the trigger as a lever. 10-12 lb is about average DA pull I believe. I've not used a gauge, but all mine have stock springs, and aren't hard to shoot well DA. As you mentioned, a slick action is more important that the weight, though lighter is easier to pull.

Dry fire in DA over a couple weeks will help develop the muscles used to pull the trigger. Nothing else will really stand in for it. One thing I used to do, was simply pull it DA until I couldn't, just sheer numbers of reps. Doing that several times a day over a week or two will develop the muscles and make increasingly large numbers of pulls possible.

Mr Borland had a vid up once of him squeezing through the DA pull on his 686 with a nickel stood on edge on the barrel rib, it stayed in place as he pulled through a number of times DA. Part of that is slick action, part is well developed hands. He may have lighter springs, but a smooth pull is possible with stock springs, it just takes a little more work to make it happen.

 

[BCRider]

None of the people I've spoken to on the phone have agreed to let me watch them do whatever it is they're going to do. I haven't given up on that, but maybe it's not going to happen.

EXTREMELY unlikely to happen. First off they don't want to give away their secrets. And frankly they aren't there to run a school. Then there's the basic liability and insurance issues of having a non employee in the shop while work is being performed.

You may as well stop asking. You're just going to turn them against doing any work for you.

 

[9mmepiphany]

If anyone here knows of a good gunsmith in South Florida, who would work on it as I watched (and maybe charge me a bit more?), that would still be my preference.

How many hundreds or thousands of dollars are you willing to pay to watch?

For what you want to do, the smith would likely have to move you ahead of a number of jobs ahead of yours...I don't think I'd trust a pistolsmith who wasn't backed up on jobs...so the question would be what incentive you'd be willing to offer to convince him to allow you to jump the line.

The other question would be, would you want to do business with a person with such questionable ethics?

 

[mikemyers]

.......For what you want to do, the smith would likely have to move you ahead of a number of jobs ahead of yours.........

That wasn't my goal - I'm in no hurry. I suggested he could pick a time when I could bring it to him, and I could stand off in the background and watch him work. Liability may make this impossible.

The place I used to go to in Michigan was out in the countryside, and the fellow worked out of his home. I never asked him, but I think had I done so, he'd have said sure! This is 35 years ago though.

My whole life I've tried to learn how to do things on my own, be it motorcycles, sports cars, model trains, and now computers.... anything I really care about. I learned how to do anything and everything on my bikes, and for the past several years, I build my own computers from parts. I'm slow to learn, but eventually, things somehow always work out. For the past week or so, I keep reading Jerry's book on the S&W, and keep learning more about it..... but book learning is never really like actually doing....

 

[mikemyers]

I would doubt that the actual pull weight is 18 lbs, the trigger pull weight isn't directly related in pull weight to the rebound slide spring weight.......

The stock spring is 18#. The lighter springs seem to vary from 12 to 15 pounds, at least in name.

Coil springs are normally rated by so much force for a given amount of travel. For a normal spring, the force will grow linearly, until the spring bottoms out. By looking over my spring collection, and comparing it with the stock springs you sent me, I can see that the manufacturers vary both the length of the spring, and the diameter wire that is used.

Any thoughts on what that number really does represent? For a 12, or an 18 pound spring, how did it get that rating? Could it be the force it exerts on the slide, when it is in the gun and compressed? You're right about my finger on the trigger having a mechanical advantage.... I was thinking that an 18# spring meant you'd need to pull the trigger with a force of 18 pounds to fire the gun..... just a guess.

 

[9mmepiphany]

That wasn't my goal - I'm in no hurry. I suggested he could pick a time when I could bring it to him, and I could stand off in the background and watch him work.

I don't think you understand how gunsmiths commonly work.

You drop off your gun and that holds your place in their queue...but their queue isn't linear. They work on guns in the order they came in, but might skip around as they wait for parts for the gun they are working on. They also might work on several guns at the same time which require the same machine work or chemical treatment. This is more common in a one-person shop than in a specialty shop.

I don't think it is practical for him to plan ahead to schedule a time for you to bring in a gun. I guess if you could be there on 15 mins notice, he could call when he wanted to do something to it...but you'd still have to leave your gun with him.

When I had a lot of revolver work done, 6-8 weeks was a common time estimate for action work. When you logged in the gun, it went into a plastic bin and took its place at the end of a line of identical bins. When it got to the head of the line, a gunsmith would pull the bin, look at the ticket and decide if he wanted to work on it that day

 

[RealGun]

The old mechanic's sign was something like "we charge double if you bring your own parts. We charge triple if you watch."

 

[MrBorland]

I would doubt that the actual pull weight is 18 lbs, the trigger pull weight isn't directly related in pull weight to the rebound slide spring weight. You have a mechanical advantage with the trigger as a lever. 10-12 lb is about average DA pull I believe...As you mentioned, a slick action is more important that the weight, though lighter is easier to pull.

+1. The trigger pull isn't likely 18lbs, and stock guns, IME, generally run in the 10-12 lb range.

Mr Borland had a vid up once of him squeezing through the DA pull on his 686 with a nickel stood on edge on the barrel rib, it stayed in place as he pulled through a number of times DA. Part of that is slick action, part is well developed hands. He may have lighter springs, but a smooth pull is possible with stock springs, it just takes a little more work to make it happen.

In Part 1, I used a bone-stock 3" Model 65:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nES4A0rd1ak
Though it's got the factory DA pull weight, it's got the smoothest factory action I've ever felt. A firm (and high) grip is good, but fine motor control rules. Fortunately, both can be worked through effective dry fire.

In Part 2, I used my tuned match gun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmy5mkjpUNI
The radically-bobbed hammer doesn't jar the muzzle, so I'm able to pull off the Full Monty. The DA pull is set to about 7 1/2lbs.

The gun feels FAR, FAR better than when I entered this thread, and I understand it MUCH better than ever before, but what I've learned first from you guys, and now even more so from Jerry Kuhnhausen's book, is that I don't know enough to do much more. The more I read, the more complex everything seems.

Things can get complicated very quickly when you're trying to diagnose and fix an ailment, for which I'd recommend a gunsmith. By it's nature, the Kuhnhausen manual gets into that kind of nitty gritty.

But the smoothing of an action that's otherwise in good shape is something that can certainly be done at home if you've got the right tools and disposition, which it sounds like you do.

Another option is to check out the local competition (IDPA/USPSA/bullseye) scene. In each area, it seems, there's someone who does really good tuning work, but isn't technically a gunsmith. As a rule, they don't advertise, and it's word-of-mouth only. If you ask around, you might find such a guy in your area.

 

[BSA1]

The old mechanic's sign was something like "we charge double if you bring your own parts. We charge triple if you watch."

One on the tools gunsmiths used to use on S&W revolvers to realign the front sight so the gun would shoot to p.o.a. was a lead babbit. The smith would whack the gun smartly with the babbit to move the barrel.

It was recommended that the gunsmith do this procedure in the back room out of sight to the gun owner. Gun owners would get upset when they saw their gun getting beat on.

Of course the trick of the trade is knowing where to whack on the gun.

 

[mikemyers]

+1. The trigger pull isn't likely 18lbs, and stock guns, IME, generally run in the 10-12 lb range.....

I ordered one of these, so I can measure DA pull:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/117244/rcbs-trigger-pull-gage-military-0-to-25-lb-8-oz-increments?cm_vc=ProductFinding

.....Another option is to check out the local competition (IDPA/USPSA/bullseye) scene. In each area, it seems, there's someone who does really good tuning work, but isn't technically a gunsmith. As a rule, they don't advertise, and it's word-of-mouth only. If you ask around, you might find such a guy in your area.

Excellent idea..... I will try to do so.

 

[9mmepiphany]

One on the tools gunsmiths used to use on S&W revolvers to realign the front sight so the gun would shoot to p.o.a. was a lead babbit. The smith would whack the gun smartly with the babbit to move the barrel.

It was recommended that the gunsmith do this procedure in the back room out of sight to the gun owner. Gun owners would get upset when they saw their gun getting beat on.

Of course the trick of the trade is knowing where to whack on the gun.

They get even more upset when you insert a Q-tip between the frame and crane, close it,and give the crane a wack with the babbit.

I almost went through the roof, the first time I saw that on one of my S&W

 

[mikemyers]

They get even more upset when you insert a Q-tip between the frame and crane, close it,and give the crane a wack with the babbit......

I think it's difficult to select a good gunsmith who really is good. Anyone can make a professional looking website, so that's no longer a good way to choose. "Reviews" may or may not be real, so that's not automatically a good way to select. Recommendations in a discussion forum, where multiple users feel someone is quite good is maybe the best. At any rate, if you see the fellow whacking away on your gun, how are you to know if this is the proper thing to do? First impressions would be "On NO!!"

Phone calls - maybe that's a good way, depending on how your questions are answered. I called "Somarriba" in Miami, but they are overloaded, and it might take a month to get my gun back. If they're that busy, I suspect they're likely to be good.

I called "Miami Gunsmith & Refinishing Services", and spoke to the owner, Robert. He sounded good, and the turn-around might be days, not weeks, but he seemed more focused on making the trigger pull lighter, which wasn't the reason I called. On the positive side, he got good recommendations on a different forum, which is a good start. I may stop there tomorrow, and let him take a quick look at the gun, and at least get his initial reaction. (We discussed whether I should show it to him assembled, so he could dry-fire it, or apart, so he could look inside, but would not be able to dry-fire.)

That left two more choices from my first hunt, and neither has responded yet to the message I left.



Can I suggest that THR create a forum where people can leave their thoughts on various gunsmiths that they've used, which might help others make a better choice?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Try Walt Sherman; 5846 Tea Rose Trail; Tallahassee, FL 32311; 850-878-9563...if he is still alive.

He specialized in Python actions, but he might know someone who he'd trust to work on a S&W (they are much easier to work on)

You're lucky it is a S&W. There are only about 3 men still alive that I'd let work on my Pythons