Single Action vs. Double Action

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BCRider said:
...What MrBorland wrote about the one smooth pull is spot on....
Click to expand...


I think I'm back to where I was when I first entered this thread, but at least now I understand the most probable reason. Part of it is me, but....

Pretend you go to Publix for food shopping every day of the year, and use a shopping cart. One day you get one of those damaged carts, that every so often wants to pull one way or another. No matter how good you are, that cart will never go in a straight line, and you'll be fighting it constantly.

I've got four S&W Revolvers. Two are large-frame, a '44 with 6" barrel, and a '44 with 10 5/8" barrel. Both have "strong" trigger pull, but with both of them, the trigger moves back in one smooth, easy motion. The only roughness is due to my very tired trigger finger. I also have a 357 Model 19-3 with a 2.5" barrel. The trigger feels perfect for me, and moves back like a knife cutting through butter. With any of these, I can see myself doing what you've all suggested.

On the other hand - with my Highway Patrolman - it feels like that broken shopping cart. It feels like a knife cutting through lumps of clay, sometimes moving easily, and then suddenly getting all stiff again. When I created this thread, I blamed all this on old grease, but I guess I was wrong.

I've got two choices - take it to a gunsmith, if I can find one I trust, or take off the side plate and see if I can find out what is binding.
 
Your 28 is messed up. Probably a very easy fix (cleaning it) that you can do yourself.....IF you're willing to take off the side plate.
 
David E said:
Your 28 is messed up. Probably a very easy fix (cleaning it) that you can do yourself.....IF you're willing to take off the side plate.
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Ha! It took me about an hour to do what Will did in under five minutes, but the gun is mostly apart now. I think I found the source of the roughness, but what do I know.... but this sure does "feel" like what I feel when the gun is together:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6A14sNZ59o&feature=youtu.be

I guess all these parts need to come off next, but unless that spring is somehow causing the problem, I don't see how anything I can do would prevent this from happening. I am almost sure that the way the trigger hangs up when trying to close in this video, is exactly what I experienced when it hung up while I was shooting. Do I need to replace these parts with new ones?



Addendum - added later - based only on looking at and watching the parts, my very un-educated guess is that the cylinder stop is worn out, and the small hole in it that fits over the pin that it rotates on, is now too large, allowing the cylinder stop to be too close to the trigger, so that it binds with it every time the trigger is pulled. If I can sort of force the cylinder stop to move away from the trigger, the parts seem to work much better. Not sure if this makes sense or not, but that's what it looks like to me.
 
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Very interesting. Looks like one of the hang-ups I suggested it could be - the trigger having a hard time re-engaging the cylinder stop bolt.

The trigger nose that re-engages really looks like a sharp angle to me, and might explain why it's having such a tough time. Look at the same part of the trigger in the link below (also a good tutorial for disassembly) - it's a much gentler angle. You can also see it in the aftermarket trigger below.


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=397027


296896.jpg
http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/296/296896.jpg


p.s. the hole in the cylinder stop bolt is supposed to be elongated.
 
MrBorland said:
.......The trigger nose that re-engages really looks like a sharp angle to me, and might explain why it's having such a tough time. Look at the same part of the trigger in the link below (also a good tutorial for disassembly) - it's a much gentler angle. .........the hole in the cylinder stop bolt is supposed to be elongated.
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Everything you say makes sense, and yes, when I took the close up photo shown below, you're right about that hole as well. Gee, compared to the part in your photo, what I've got looks just plain crude!!!

IMG_1127a.jpg
 
OK, now hold on a sec. The video you showed has both parts working just fine. The issue is that the guy in the video is missing the rest of the parts.

Mind you depending on how he's pushing the trigger back to the forward position there is some signs of a catch. Something that some light stoning to polish the engagement surface for a smoother rubbing would fix. But in terms of stock parts what I'm seeing isn't at all unusual.

On the other hand if you can find and afford to get some smith that has a known name for building up PPC revolvers to give your HP a going over you will positively DROOL at what you get back. I've shot a buddy's ex PPC match gun that was given a full on job by one of our best Canadian PPC smiths (Murry Charleton if anyone cares) and there simply ain't enough O's in SMOOOOOOOOTH to describe how it feels. So there ARE some options. But do get a price on slicking up the gun before you send it off. Otherwise Kraft Dinner might end up being a staple for a month or so.... But it WOULD be worth it :D
 
Onward Allusion said:
I need to caveat that to say I was going to the range 3+ times a week (which gave me high levels of lead due to it being indoors with crappy ventilation). That was about 3 years ago now. These days I shoot about 3" to 4" from that distance.

I think there are some guys here that do the same at 25 yards!
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Yep. I'm a 280+ bullseye shooter, much more than a 2" group at 25 and my night is shot!
 
BCRider makes a good point - you'd feel some resistance as the trigger re-engages the stop bolt even if you ran the same test on a well-tuned revolver. Still, that angle looks unnecessarily sharp to me, and may (or may not) contribute to the return hang-up.

I recall you mentioned the entire action feels bad - release and pull. Did I misunderstand? If I didn't, and since it got a good internal cleaning & lubing, there's likely multiple things that could use some stoning, in which case a good action job by a good 'smith is your best bet.
 
My opinion, as someone completely new to this:

  • Yes, the action feels bad pulling (something seems to bind) and binds even more so when releasing the trigger
  • As I took the gun apart, I kept trying to pull the trigger and release it, to see if i could determine which parts were binding.
  • The bind in releasing the trigger you see in my video is exactly what it did when the gun was all together. Sounds the same, feels the same, and looks the same.
  • I don't know what is causing the bind when pulling the trigger, but I suspect it is the interface between these same two parts. Something is binding up.

I have been looking for good photos that show how the trigger fits into the stop, but I haven't found anything with enough detail yet. The best photos I have found so far seem to show the "squared off" projection at the front of the trigger as being rounded off at least at the top corner. That is the same sharp corner that is binding up when releasing the trigger.



BCRider, I filmed the video with my right hand, while controlling the gun with my left hand. I agree with you that the parts look like they are working as intended, but if you look closely, you'll see that they are "stuck" until I force the trigger forward. If I'm wrong about this, and the coil spring is supposed to have enough force to overcome this, I can re-assemble the gun with the stock spring, and see if it magically works for me, even though it didn't work for Will.

Thank you Malamute - the springs you sent me just arrived!
 
I get a feeling that you are considering altering some internal parts without having a sure diagnose of what is causing the problem. Too often this can lead to a ruined part (which doesn’t take a whole lot to accomplish), and these days finding a correct replacement can be both difficult and expensive. For that reason I’m going to make some suggestions:

1. Begin by going to www.brownells.com Then purchase a copy of a book: The Smith & Wesson Revolver – A Shop Manual; by Jerry Kuhnhausen. This little paperback is well illustrated, fully explains how to troubleshoot and service S&W pre-MIM revolvers, and much of the material came from the company who used it to train they’re own employees and police department/military armorers. At the present time you are suffering from a serious lack of knowledge, and I think you know it. This book will go a long way to correct this.

2. While you are at Brownells, order a copy of their print catalog. It contains most if not all of the specialized tools (such as correct screwdriver bits, and pin punches with cupped points to fit round-headed pins, plus a whole lot more). Beyond that you will find parts (if still available) and supplies.

After reading the manual and discovering what you need, you will have a source to obtain them from, and be a whole less likely to do something you’ll later wish you hadn’t.
 
Old Fuff said:
.......At the present time you are suffering from a serious lack of knowledge.......
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree. Never dig a hole so deep that you can no longer crawl out of it.

I started to re-assemble the gun after that last post I made. It will be very sparingly lubricated, and if I can get the return spring (the stock one) back in place, the gun should be re-assembled by tomorrow.

I very much appreciate all the feedback - I learned a lot more than I knew before. I guess I either try once again to find a reputable gunsmith in the Miami area, or consider sending the gun to S&W for repairs, or simply continue to shoot it in SA mode.
 
Wait til you get the factory rebound spring in and try it before making any decisions. I'm guessing the hesitation of the trigger returning will go away.

The elongated hole in the cylinder locking bolt is OK, its part of how it works and overrides the trigger when it resets. Cycle the action slowly with the side plate off and watch it. I wouldn't worry about the other edge until you see how it does with the new rebound spring. It may be helped by cleaning it up, or it may work alright.

There are some fairly simple and safe slicking up you can do. Some things shouldn't be messed with, like the sear in the hammer (the lever part), you can mess up the trigger pull where it transitions very quickly. The rebound slide, the sides of some of the internals, they are relatively safe to polish a little. Be careful not to polish off the color case hardening on the sides of the trigger and hammer where they show, it wont look as good, and if its outside the frame where it can be seen, it isn't really helping anyway.

It doesn't take much polishing to make a difference, though your gun may be fine once the real glitch is sorted out.

Getting the rebound slide and spring back in place can be troublesome, but if you use a small flat blade screwdriver to get it started over the pin (pushing the spring into slide enough to start it), then sort of shoehorn it the rest of the way, it isn't too bad.
 
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Malamute said:
Wait til you get the factory rebound spring in and try it before making any decisions. I'm guessing the hesitation of the trigger returning will go away.......
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Malamute, three of the four springs you sent me are .032" diameter wire, 1.17" long. The fourth spring is the same wire, but only 1.12" long. They all have 17 coils. Thanks again for sending!! I will pick one of the three that are the same, 1.17" length, and put that one back into my gun.

My original spring, now cut off, is .032" diameter wire, but now only 1.1" long. I think that one gets thrown away.

The three springs in the Wilsoncombat package are a puzzle - they are all 0.29" diameter wire, with the following lengths:
12# spring 1.27" long 18 coils (This is the spring that I just took out of the gun.)
13# spring 1/13" long 17 coils
14# spring 1.21" long 17 coils
Since I think this package was mislabeled, I'm just going to give it back to Will.


One last question.... way up above, I was told not to cycle the gun to check the motion of things until the side plate is back in place. Apparently this relates to the need to take all the spring pressure off the main spring until all the parts in the mechanism are supported on both sides. My understanding is that otherwise, one of the pivot pins for the trigger can get bent.

Is it acceptable to just snug up the tensioning screw on the main spring, just a bit, and then try cycling the gun, to watch what is going on?
 
Yes, it should be OK to cycle it with very light main spring tension. Try it after getting the rebound slide in also (just trigger, locking bolt and rebound slide, without the hammer in yet). If you wanted to break that sharp edge off the upper side of the front of the trigger, it wouldnt hurt, though I think the trigger reset will probably work alright. Doing one thing at a time helps figure out exactly what helped.
 
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I started to re-assemble the gun after that last post I made. It will be very sparingly lubricated, and if I can get the return spring (the stock one) back in place, the gun should be re-assembled by tomorrow.
Click to expand...

Back to Brownells again... They have an inexpensive tool that makes this otherwise (sometimes) difficult job quick and easy. You seem to have the cart in front of the horse. If the revolver remains disassembled for a few days the world won't come to an end.

Also be sure that the screwdriver you're using is an exact fit for the sideplate screws, and you get those screws back into the same holes they came out of. Otherwise you may have more trouble then you have now.
 
Old Fuff said:
......You seem to have the cart in front of the horse. If the revolver remains disassembled for a few days the world won't come to an end......

Also be sure that the screwdriver you're using is an exact fit for the sideplate screws, and you get those screws back into the same holes they came out of. Otherwise you may have more trouble then you have now.
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Thanks again for the suggestions. Regarding re-assembly, I have two work areas set up. One is for taking the gun apart, and the other is for where to put the parts. Everything is lined up, in order, on the second work area, so all the parts will go back into the original location, even the two screws that appear identical, and which all the web pages but for one say it doesn't matter where each of those will go. I used to do this for motorcycles, and model railroad locomotives, and it's the only way I know of to force me to put everything back where it belongs.


About the spring tool - As per your suggestion, after a long internet chat with Roman R. at Brownells, I just ordered one of these:
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-t...rebound-slide-tool-sku080666000-774-2973.aspx


Brownells is a VERY helpful place. Roman read through this whole chat, asked me several questions, and I now have on order the S&W book (out of stock right now), their catalog, the removal tool, and a spring kit:
http://www.brownells.com/handgun-pa...-reduced-power-kit-sku080665201-740-2948.aspx
I'll try the spring kit, but only after assembling the gun first with the stock spring that Malamute sent me.
 
Brownells is a VERY helpful place. Roman read through this whole chat, asked me several questions, and I now have on order the S&W book (out of stock right now), their catalog, the removal tool, and a spring kit:

I'll try the spring kit, but only after assembling the gun first with the stock spring that Malamute sent me
Click to expand...

You are right. Brownells is a very helpful place, and more so because they only hire experienced, knowledgeable folks to answer the phone. Most are specialist gunsmiths in their own right.

Concerning the S&W Shop Manual. Since they are "out of stock," try"

www.amazon.com (may have both new and used copies).

Heritage-VPS Gun Publications (Google up a web site). I haven't tried them but I understand they have videos too.
 
Late last night I went searching, and yes, Amazon has them, for prices ranging from $45 to $65. It's also available on a DVD.

I did a little more searching and found Midway has them for $28.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/314178/the-s-and-w-revolver-a-shop-manual-book-by-jerry-kuhnhausen

I ordered the book from Midway, and will cancel my backorder.


By the way, here's a tiny part of my discussion with Roman:

  • "Visitor:I had no problem removing the old spring, prying up, and using my hands to catch it if it tried to escape. :)
  • Visitor:.....but having the proper tool for removal and re-assembly sounds like a very good idea for the future.
  • Roman R.:High five for the mechanically inclined!
  • Visitor::)
  • Roman R.:It's handy (I've got one) but it's an awful lot like a bushing wrench for a 1911. Can use it if you've got it, but not dependent on it.


Having watched Will struggle when removing and re-installing these parts, along with your suggestion, made it seem worth while, even though Roman was sort of suggesting I didn't really need it.
 
Get it. Getting that rebound spring back in without launching it is tough enough with the right tool.
 
Yep! It's already on order, along with the spring kit and catalog. Anything else that I should be ordering? I can still probably add things to the order if I call them, but Roman didn't think I needed anything else. I've probably got a couple of hours still if there's anything else that you guys think might be handy?
 
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