Single Action vs. Double Action

[9mmepiphany]

I've seen this a few times where folks deliberately stage the trigger then snatch the trigger at the last to get the break where they want it. The resulting loss of control often results in a miss where they would have gotten a hit if they simply held the sight picture and pulled smoothly through with a nice build and follow through.

I had this happen with a client last week.

He was working out his new CZ custom shop pistol and I had him doing some presentations. His first shots, during the pushout, were falling to the left. when I switched from watching his grip acquisition...I changed his draw stroke... to his trigger finger, I saw that he had the trigger coming smoothly backwards until just before the break, where he stopped it, just before he snatched it to the rear.

I had to physically stop the forward motion of his hands to force him to not save trigger travel for when his hands reach the end of their extension.

I have found that having clients fire the first shots DA, during the push out drill, will often cure a trigger slapping problem when they are shooting SA

 

[35 Whelen]

In the video, it is suggested that shooting single-action on a double action revolver isn't doing anything to help develop good trigger control.

Remember, all the guy needed was two things: A video camera and an opinion.

35W

 

[MCgunner]

Serious defensive practice with DA guns in DA mode. I'll plink in SA or DA. I love my single actions and shoot 'em a lot along with my cap and ball stuff. I do have a single action NAA .22 mag that I make a point to put in serious defensive practice with.

My single actions, other than the NAAs, are for outdoor uses, hunting or hiking.

 

[mikemyers]

A lot of things in all these responses that I never even considered yet....

To answer the question of what I want, I've been shooting since around 1980 or so, on and off, and my only goal right now is to put holes into a nice grouping at 15 yards with a handgun, so I can go home at least feeling satisfied, and hopefully feeling happy about the performance. At 15 yards, the best I'm doing lately, is 3 inch diameter groupings for 50 shots, fired SA. Up until a few weeks ago, that was 4 1/2" groupings, before I started following Jerry Miculek's video "Grip & Technique" and dry firing every day for 15 minutes.

I'm just doing this for fun. It's a challenge, and quite often VERY frustrating. The gun I'm using is an S&W N-frame 357 Magnum Highway Patrolman, which weighs about as much as I do, and has a trigger pull that feels like about 30 pounds.

I suspect that if I switch, and start shooting (and dry firing) DA instead of SA, I'll eventually be better at both, not to mention having much stronger hands. After years of shooting SA though, another part of me says to stick with SA until I get better, and then try to catch up shooting DA.

(I'm surprised at what I've been reading here - I thought anyone and everyone who wanted to shoot good groups automatically did SA shooting. Apparently I was wrong.)

 

[murf]

you are not wrong. most of these guys are competition shooters. they have to combine speed with accuracy. in that case, double-action is, by far, the best way to shoot.

for you: if you want to shoot nice tight groups, shoot single-action and take your time.

learn the sa trigger squeeze first. get real good at it. if you want to do da later, fine. these two trigger pull methods are different enough, i suggest you concentrate on one at a time.

i've been shooting a hiway patrolman on and off for 36 years. once you get used to the weight and find the correct set of grips to correctly fit your hand, you will find no handgun more accurate. i still do not shoot as well as the gun.

luck,

murf

 

[ljnowell]

I shoot bullseye with a m19 s&w or a 686 depending on my mood. I, like nearly everyone in my league, shoot DA. It's hard to shoot 5 rounds in ten seconds one handed cocking the gun for single action. Much better of to learn DA upfront.

 

[murf]

ljnowell,

do you shoot da in slow fire?

murf

 

[MrBorland]

my only goal right now is to put holes into a nice grouping at 15 yards with a handgun, so I can go home at least feeling satisfied, and hopefully feeling happy about the performance. At 15 yards, the best I'm doing lately, is 3 inch diameter groupings for 50 shots, fired SA. Up until a few weeks ago, that was 4 1/2" groupings, before I started following Jerry Miculek's video "Grip & Technique" and dry firing every day for 15 minutes.

I'm just doing this for fun. It's a challenge, and quite often VERY frustrating. The gun I'm using is an S&W N-frame 357 Magnum Highway Patrolman, which weighs about as much as I do, and has a trigger pull that feels like about 30 pounds.

A double action trigger's gonna feel heavy if you're used to shooting single action. With practice, that DA trigger won't feel as heavy. Smooth is more important than weight, though. If it's not smooth, and/or it's too heavy, find a good gunsmith who can do a good action job on it.

As far as groupings with a DA trigger, it's always been my opinion that a good wheelgunner can shoot honest and consistent 3" 5-shot groups at 25 yards in both single and double action with a service sized revolver. This is certainly do-able with quality practice. Some good instruction helps, too.

Shooting 50 shots into a single hole is gonna open the group up, and a 3" 50-shot group at 15 yards is actually pretty good. Maybe get yourself some actual 25 yard targets (e.g. NRA B-8), and start keeping track of your 10-shot double action 25 yard scores.

 

[RealGun]

I shoot bullseye with a m19 s&w or a 686 depending on my mood. I, like nearly everyone in my league, shoot DA. It's hard to shoot 5 rounds in ten seconds one handed cocking the gun for single action. Much better of to learn DA upfront.

That's not the bullseye I know. That's rapid fire.

 

[Walkalong]

a 3" 50-shot group at 15 yards is actually pretty good.

Yep, it's hard to hold perfectly 50 times in a row, and the load isn't going to be perfect either. Sometimes those two add up to a wide shot, and some times they negate each other.

I can concentrate for six shots every once in a while and shoot a great group at 15 yards, but if I had to do fifty in a row, I would lose concentration and probably be lucky to keep it at three inches.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I shoot double action for self defense practice. I shoot single action when taking longer, slower shots as in range fun, or practicing to kill food.

No reason not to do both.

When dry fire practicing at home, I do it double action since that promotes learning proper trigger control.

 

[mikemyers]

.........Shooting 50 shots into a single hole is gonna open the group up, and a 3" 50-shot group at 15 yards is actually pretty good. Maybe get yourself some actual 25 yard targets (e.g. NRA B-8), and start keeping track of your 10-shot double action 25 yard scores.

As for the targets, I print my own targets with a one-inch grid, replace a target when the holes are too clustered, and feed all the data for each bullet hole into a spreadsheet that evening, so I know the "CEP" for all 50 shots. For me, to put 50 shots int a 3" circle is a challenge I hope to eventually accomplish. I thought many people here could do it easily.


Maybe I'm just way too inexperienced, but doing all these things properly at the same time still seems almost impossible. Placing the sight picture beneath the target, then concentrating ONLY on keeping the sight picture the way it should be, while trying to pull the trigger straight back without thinking about it, sounds like juggling five bowling pins while also trying to read a newspaper.

I gave up tonight, and eliminated the target - instead I started dry firing at a blank wall, no target, just trying to keep the correct sight picture while getting my trigger finger to pull smoothly without my thinking about it. That made things easier - and I'm not supposed to be paying attention to the target anyway, so I don't think I'm hurting myself.

 

[Longhorn 76]

Staging the trigger in da works better for me with Colt revolvers.

 

[9mmepiphany]

It's a control issue, try just continuing to press the trigger to the rear without stop; you might be surprised at the results...or not

 

[40-82]

After nearly forty years of shooting double action I have found myself using it in hunting situations for close tense shots when I'm afraid that the extra motion of cocking the gun will alert the game. Sometimes after practicing double action almost exclusively for awhile, I'll decide to see what the gun will really do and try a few groups single action only to find that my double action groups were better. Sometimes I have to remind myself to keep my hand in the single action game because those skills are perishable.

For someone just learning the basics of accurate target shooting it may be best to concentrate on shooting single action. It may take a little time to develop the specific muscle control necessary to do well double action, but until double action control is achieved you'll never fully realize the capability of that style revolver.

 

[oldcelt]

When target shooting I shoot s.a. for defensive practice, sometimes first shot s.a. and follow up is all d.a. I do this now because of habit developed over time and because it works for me.

 

[mikemyers]

For better or worse, I'm still practicing dry firing every day, but now several times a day. Thanks to the discussion here, I decided I would spend half my time at SA and half at DA.

The discussion and books all seem to suggest you make one smooth pull with DA, until the gun fires. With my gun (S&W 357 Highway Patrolman), it's not very smooth - there are "clicks" and some parts of the pull are lighter than others. I'm not sure if all guns are like this, or just mine..... but it's durn near impossible for me to make a single, continuous, smooth pull.

I'm doing the best I can anyway, and amazingly, the more I do it, the "better" I get. A week or two ago, my finger got too tired to continue past a certain number of shots. I'm better at that now. I'm sure I'm smoother as well, but "smooth" isn't a good description for how it feels to me so far. As for the "sight picture", it's better than a week ago, but it's a fight to maintain the right sight picture as my finger is struggling to pull smoothly.

 

[WestKentucky]

It's all in timing for me. I am not rock steady when in shooting position and I have learned how I move in a bit of a figure 8 if I try to hold steady without muscling through my shot and rushing it. I have my timing down to where my shot finds home very well when shooting SA. DA I shoot a sideways figure 8 about 3 inches across at 15 yards. My dad on the other hand is the opposite. He pulls hard and fast straight back and is used to the heavy trigger. When he goes SA he shoots a 6" circle at 15 yds and a 3" shooting DA. He says he knows the feel of his trigger and judges shot off of it, that the nonexistent stroke when shooting SA doesn't give him time to feel the shot. With that said we both call our own shots both rifle and revolver very well, to the point I knew I flinched zeroing my wife's .243 on first shot ever. Adjusted the scope for where it felt like it should have hit and 2 shots later it was time for a 5 shot confirmation group. We still had 12 shells in the box with a zeroed rifle. My point here is that you learn what feels right and what works best for you. Get good with it and it becomes instinct no matter what "it" is. You will eventually start calling your shots before looking at the target closely too. Want to make it really fun, drop an Easter egg from a string in front of your berm. Wait til dark, and light the egg from the side so you have no background telling where your shot hit. You figure out your misses really quickly.

 

[Bullseye]

I guess I am the odd one but I shoot my DA revolvers 99% of the time in SA anyway simply because of a lighter trigger pull. I think I got in this habit because many years ago I had a Ruger Service Six .357 and shot it thousands of times. The DA trigger pull was significantly heavier than the SA trigger pull. My shots would be all over the place using DA but I got good using SA. Currently I have a S&W 629 which is much nicer in DA but I still prefer my SA routine for accuracy.

 

[MrBorland]

With my gun (S&W 357 Highway Patrolman), it's not very smooth - there are "clicks" and some parts of the pull are lighter than others. I'm not sure if all guns are like this, or just mine..... but it's durn near impossible for me to make a single, continuous, smooth pull.

Your revolver may have excessive endshake*, simply needs a good internal cleaning and lubing, and/or it really needs a good action job. Either way, a rough action is as bad as an inherently inaccurate gun. Both are aggravating, but more importantly, neither is going to help you improve.


* easily fixable with Power Custom endshake shims

 

[chriske]

All my S&W revolvers are shot in DA only.
I don't get better results when I shoot them in SA mode. Worse, mostly.
Anyway, "good" day or " can't hit a thing" day, my DA shot groups are more predictable and conistent than my SA ones.
And, as mentioned before, "staging" te trigger does not work. At all. Ever.

 

[mikemyers]

Your revolver may have excessive endshake*, simply needs a good internal cleaning and lubing, and/or it really needs a good action job.......

Thanks - if you mean, does the cylinder have a lot of play front/back, I don't think so. On the other hand, I don't think it has EVER had a good internal cleaning, as neither I, nor the person I bought it from, know how to do more than the typical after-shooting cleaning.


It doesn't feel "rough" when i fire DA, but if I'm trying to do this slowly and smoothly, I can feel all these things happening inside the gun, and it's almost as if the action wants to "stick" at some places during the movement....

 

[MrBorland]

A vintage Highway Patrolman ought to have a pretty good action, and a good thorough internal cleaning & lubing might (or might not) do wonders for it. It's really not that tough. There's a Sticky at the top of this forum on the disassembly/reassembly of a S&W, and I pasted the link below (one thing I'd do differently, though, is loosen the mainspring tension screw before removing the sideplate).

You can go as far as you like with the disassembly. Some just open the sideplate, and spray the beejeebers out of the innards with solvent, then drop lube in. If it's never been cleaned, it'd be ideal to disassemble, clean each part individually, clean the naked frame, & lube as you reassemble. And don't be stingy with the lube; I use TW25B liberally. One top wheelgunner I know literally packs the inside with TW25B, though I think that's overkill.

Also check that your ejector rod is straight and tight. It locks up at the front, so if it's bent, it can bind the action as you describe. Just open the cylinder, give it a spin, and watch the end of the rod for any wobble. Don't overtighten the rod, lest you strip threads, but a small drop of blue Loctite on the threads ought to keep it put.


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=397027

 

[Old Fuff]

Unless the revolver's owner is experienced, and has the right tools (especially screwdrivers) it is not wise for them to "pop the sideplate," as a mistake could cause serious damage to what now is a very desirable and valuable revolver.

These are two possible alternatives that shouldn't get anyone into trouble.

1. Take the gun to an experienced S&W gunsmith and have them examine it. Then follow their suggestions. Or return it to Smith & Wesson's service department if a qualified 'smith isn't locally available.

2. Remove the stocks and place the revolver is a container and cover it with Marvel Mystery Oil (available at automobile service stores or most big-box marts). Let it soak for a few hours and then use an air hose to blow out the excess (or lay it on a thick layer of old newspapers and let it drain). Wipe off the exterior with paper towels and use dry patches to wipe out the bore and chambers. Examine the gun frequently and wipe off any oil that continues to drain. Dispose of the used newspapers and towels that are oil soaked because they can be a fire hazard. Pour the oil back into the original container because it can be used over and over.

This may seem like a lot of work and bother but it usually works and there is no chance that anything will be damaged.

 

[9mmepiphany]

It doesn't feel "rough" when i fire DA, but if I'm trying to do this slowly and smoothly, I can feel all these things happening inside the gun, and it's almost as if the action wants to "stick" at some places during the movement....

This got me curious enough to drag out my old M27-2 and M58 (no dash) to feel the triggers...I haven't had them out in years and really should sell them to let someone else enjoy them.

Pulling the trigger as slowly as I could, both with and without tension on the hammer, I couldn't feel what you are describing. The trigger just slide smoothly to letoff. I don't even feel the bolt coming up as much as hear it.

So I pulled out a recently acquired JM625-8 and tried that trigger. Smooth rolling all the way to release.

As MrBorland suggested, check to see if your ejector rod is loose or bent. While you have the cylinder open, give it a spin and see if it is spinning freely...it should spin around a number of times before slowing to a stop