So you stumble across a thief...

[Six]

Maybe you arrive home and find someone walking out of the house with your laptop or camera or jewelry. Or you go out to the car to get something, and find someone going through the glove box or console, or in the process of removing the stereo. Or you walk out into the yard and find someone walking off with some of your power tools from the shed.

Pick whatever scenario you'd like.

You're carrying a gun of some form, and the thief notices you at the same time you notice him.

Presumably, you will yell something like stop, get out, get off my lawn, etc etc, and maybe draw your gun.

The thief in so many words, tells you that he's not scared of you, and simply ignores you and continues what he was doing. He does not make any threats, he's not carrying a weapon that you can see, he just keeps walking or keeps looking for stuff - as if you didn't exist.

What do you do?

The question is based on the other discussion Bump in the yard 0545hrs.

However, I'm not asking what makes a man a man, or what rights you have, or whether it's important to stand up to bullies, or whether you have the right to defend your property.

I simply ask: What do you actually do?

 

[Kleanbore]

If it's not in Texas at night, I would get some cell phone pictures and call 911....this while being very alert for his possible accomplices.

No, I will not yell anything, and I will not draw.

 

[hso]

Concur with second post

 

[230therapy]

The standard for most states is that the shooter must be in fear of death or serious bodily harm before he or she may use lethal force.

Have those conditions been met?

Presumably, you will yell something like stop, get out, get off my lawn, etc etc, and maybe draw your gun.

The thief in so many words, tells you that he's not scared of you, and simply ignores you and continues what he was doing. He does not make any threats, he's not carrying a weapon that you can see, he just keeps walking or keeps looking for stuff - as if you didn't exist.

No, reasonable fear of death or serious bodily harm to the good guy has not been met. Shooting the thief would result in some sort of charge against the good guy.

Be a good witness, possibly follow the thief, and watch out for accomplices.

 

[heeler]

230Therapy that charge against the good guy would make a world of difference depending on location.
In other words Chicago or Houston.
NYC or Butte Montana.
Etc.
If your going to let the guy walk why follow him???

 

[Gouranga]

In NC, I have no right to draw my weapon in him. I have no citizens arrest authority. I do however have every right to use soft hands. I would call 911, I would employ OC spray, a baseball bat, club, etc and use overwhelming force to get him off my property. In such a case, a fair fight, not what I would want.

If he pulled a weapon, i would use lethal force to terminate the lethal threat. Average police response in my neighborhood is 5-10 minutes. So it would not be long before he had a cop to deal with too. I would have a video record of the entire incident from my video cam and plenty of witnesses as he would have set off the alarm system. He would also have a large dog to be dealing with.

 

[hso]

a baseball bat, club

constitute lethal force so be careful about what is used to "motivate" the thief to leave.

 

[M2 Carbine]

What do you do?

It just depends.

I would follow the law, which in TX allows me to use deadly force, even to the point of protecting or recovering property.
Basically I will not stand by while someone steals from me.

The thief in so many words, tells you that he's not scared of you, and simply ignores you and continues what he was doing. He does not make any threats, he's not carrying a weapon that you can see, he just keeps walking or keeps looking for stuff - as if you didn't exist.

Again, it depends. If he ignores the gun in my hand pointed at him I figure he is definitely a mentally unstable threat.
Probably I would call 911 and as long as he wasn't destroying anything and didn't attempt to approach within 10-15 yards of me, I would just keep a gun pointed in his general direction until the Sheriff arrived.

If he attempted to approach me, I'd warn him off and if he still came on I'd shoot him. (I'm 72 and my fist fighting days are long past)
If he attempted to leave with something I didn't want to lose, again I'd warn him then I'd shoot him.

Another consideration is, if he was in or attempting to get in a shop where there are usually guns, at some point I'd shoot him.

 

[HOWARD J]

I would pull my weapon & ask him to drop the objects he has stolen.
If he does not I would go in the house & call the cops.
In MI don't harm this guy if he does not attack you---if you do--you will go to prison.

 

[Charleo0192]

Well I live in a pretty good area, as far as police response times go. They never take more then 2 minutes and usually are there in a minute, at least with the few occassions I have dealt with them.

On topic, sorta...Since I don't have my CCW I don't know this. I plan to get it though. Anyways, are you required to tell a deadly threat you have a weapon before you can shoot?

example. A burglar walks in. You yell and say to get out. He turns to you and pulls a knife out. He starts to walk towards you. Would you have to yell "I have a gun and will use it if you do not stop" or can you just shoot when he starts to come at you?

 

[Arkansas Paul]

This is a situation where a good doberman would come in handy. I know it wasn't part of the question. Just saying.

 

[jkulysses]

Well I live in a pretty good area, as far as police response times go. They never take more then 2 minutes and usually are there in a minute, at least with the few occassions I have dealt with them.

On topic, sorta...Since I don't have my CCW I don't know this. I plan to get it though. Anyways, are you required to tell a deadly threat you have a weapon before you can shoot?

example. A burglar walks in. You yell and say to get out. He turns to you and pulls a knife out. He starts to walk towards you. Would you have to yell "I have a gun and will use it if you do not stop" or can you just shoot when he starts to come at you?

That all depends on what state you live in and what you tell police after they get there. If just said he broke into my house so I shot him you might be in trouble but if you said he broke in and woke you up but it was dark and you were still half asleep and you thought you saw a weapon and were scared for your life you would probably be ok. As far as having to tell the perp you have a weapon I'm not sure in your state but you don't have to here.

 

[heeler]

CharleoO192,That depends in the state you live.
As was noted by M2 Carbine Texas will let you basically blow him down.
Remember Joe Horn?
And that was his neighbors house and not his.
Illinois or some other state will suddenly deem you the criminal.
I live in Texas and dont advocate shooting him but I would be pressed to stop him if it was possible for walking off with my hard earned goods.
Always know the laws of the state which you live in.

 

[M2 Carbine]

example. A burglar walks in. You yell and say to get out. He turns to you and pulls a knife out. He starts to walk towards you. Would you have to yell "I have a gun and will use it if you do not stop" or can you just shoot when he starts to come at you?

Again this goes back to the laws of your state.

Depending on when/how I see the burglar I may shout a warning but if I suspect he has a weapon (and he is within about 7 yards of me) I will shoot him without warning.

Some people can react so fast you could be shot before you finish the warning. Try it sometime. Playing the bad guy I have repeatedly "shot" people before they finished their warning to me.

I "shot" one lady 4 times in a row. She just couldn't bring herself to shoot me without warning me first. She never finished the warning every time.
The 4th time she told me I wasn't being fair.

 

[heeler]

Fair??
Fair is the Marquis of Queensbury Rules.
The street is a combat zone.
Fair...Some people!!

 

[HOWARD J]

In my first house I put a Brinks system on my house & garage---my garage was never broken into again.
My first house was never broken in to. Everyone in that neighborhood was armed.
It kept the sub-humans away.........................

In MI--if a person breaks into your house ( or your car with you in it)
they are considered a threat to your life---OPEN FIRE.........

 

[RhinoDefense]

Anyways, are you required to tell a deadly threat you have a weapon before you can shoot?

The sound of gunfire heading in their direction is a good warning they made a grave mistake.

 

[Sgt_R]

Cel phone camera and/or video, oc spray, and 911.

R

 

[Sgt_R]

That said, if I were inclined to give a verbal warning in such a circumstance, it would be after I hit the guy with pepper spray, not before.

R

 

[TexasRifleman]

As was noted by M2 Carbine Texas will let you basically blow him down.
Remember Joe Horn?
And that was his neighbors house and not his.

It's important to remember exactly what happened in the Horn case when citing it. Mr Horn was NOT shooting because of property being stolen, he shot in self defense after the 2 guys turned towards him on his OWN property, after he verbally warned them. This was witnessed and testified to by a LEO who was arriving on the scene.

Be very careful using this case as an example of "shooting over property only", it was not that.

Yes, Texas law is clear on using deadly force to protect property, but that doesn't mean a Grand Jury won't indict anyway. If you stop a car stereo thief and it costs you $20,000 in legal fees to defend against it in court, did you really win?

Personally my decision would depend on what kind of property we're talking about here. A car stereo is one thing, the portable oxygen system of my elderly neighbor is another.

 

[heeler]

Which is why I mentioned it was not even his own home.
All I was doing is citing a very good example of the lenient attitude of Texas law in regards to your personal being and or property compared to a lot of other "foreign" places.

 

[Robert]

I call 911, and follow him at a safe distance. Why? The more information I can give the dispatcher the better the chances of catching him. If he gets in a car I am telling them the make, model, color and plate number if possible. Once I have given them all the information I can I may break contact, or not depending on the situation. If he is just strolling down the side walk I will continue to shadow him and relay information until the police arrive.

 

[HexHead]

Well I live in a pretty good area, as far as police response times go. They never take more then 2 minutes and usually are there in a minute, at least with the few occassions I have dealt with them.

On topic, sorta...Since I don't have my CCW I don't know this. I plan to get it though. Anyways, are you required to tell a deadly threat you have a weapon before you can shoot?

example. A burglar walks in. You yell and say to get out. He turns to you and pulls a knife out. He starts to walk towards you. Would you have to yell "I have a gun and will use it if you do not stop" or can you just shoot when he starts to come at you?

Here in TN, just his presence inside your house is reason enough to shoot him. No need to wait for him to pull the knife.

 

[230therapy]

Didn't say I was going to let the guy get away...I said that shooting him was not justified.

Following him means the cops can more easily find him if they don't arrive quickly.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by HexHead: [A burglar walks in]...Here in TN, just his presence inside your house is reason enough to shoot him.

"Walks in"? Presence"? Not so fast. If someone forcibly and unlawfully enters your residence in TN, a person who has used deadly force is presumed to have held a reasonable belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury. Such a reasonable belief would justify the use of deadly force.

Of course, any such presumption is rebuttable, and justification would depend upon all of the facts at hand.

Lest anyone confuse this with the scenario set forth by the OP, remember that the perp in that scenario was leaving as the resident returned home.

No justification of deadly force there, except perhaps in Texas at night. And therefore, in most jurisdictions, no lawful justification for presenting a weapon, whether it be a firearm, edged weapon, bat, or hammer.