So you stumble across a thief...

[rbernie]

The sound of gunfire heading in their direction is a good warning they made a grave mistake.

And I'm sure that sounds really cute, but it does nothing to address the legalities of the situation and in most cases will result in the successful prosecution of our Hapless Homeowner and a likely subsequent loss of his/her gun rights.

 

[beeenbag]

I've got 88lbs of raging testosterone that would do everthing for me. As long as the theif doesn't get past the little white flags in the ground

 

[mgkdrgn]

Anyways, are you required to tell a deadly threat you have a weapon before you can shoot?

HE double toothpicks no! Why give the BG a chance to get off the first shot? If someone breaks into my home, while I am there, if it gets to the point where they "learn I am armed" they will learn it when they see a bright flash (maybe), a loud boom, and feel like they have been kicked in the chest by a mule.

example. A burglar walks in. You yell and say to get out. He turns to you and pulls a knife out.

.... insert bright flash, loud BANG and kicked in the chest feeling here.

 

[Robert]

If someone breaks into my home, while I am there, if it gets to the point where they "learn I am armed" they will learn it when they see a bright flash (maybe), a loud boom, and feel like they have been kicked in the chest by a mule.

This thread has nothing to do with someone entering an occupied home. The op was very clear:

Maybe you arrive home and find someone walking out of the house with your laptop or camera or jewelry. Or you go out to the car to get something, and find someone going through the glove box or console, or in the process of removing the stereo. Or you walk out into the yard and find someone walking off with some of your power tools from the shed.

The BG is leaving the property not entering an occupied home. Lets please stay on track.

 

[Six]

(OP here)

Thanks, the scenario I was trying to come up with is one where there is no immediate threat - implicit or explicit.

I wanted to take away the whole aspect of avoidance and preparation, such as lights and alarms, and focus on what action you take when you find yourself face to face with a criminal despite your best efforts.

Obviously what you'd actually do in reality vs what you think you'd do when posting on the Internet might not be one and the same, but as for myself, it'd be difficult to not say something.

I think that there is a threat, although it's not immediate or lethal, and would probably draw to low ready. I'd get the kids/wife out of the way, retreat to some distance and call 911 (and have anyone else present call).

Then it depends on what the BG does. Fortunately, I have more debt than assets, and don't own anything nice enough to shoot someone over

I appreciate everyone keeping with the topic and the responses so far.

 

[Boris bush]

Since I am coming home, I am armed. Since someone is walking out my house AND another is in one of the cars, I am outnumbered. I would draw down on the closest threat. Two of them against one of me. I will need every advantage for defense on my now occupied property. If they drop and run (not past me though) then good. If they drop and stay for the police, then even better. And a FYI, I have held a person at gun point for the police to showup for a property crime before. All I got out of it was a thankyou. It wasn't even my property.

Then I would go inside and eat my pie........

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Assuming there is no other family member needing my immedate rescue, I'd leave and call 911. There is nothing I can't replace other than my family. That's what insurance is for.

 

[beeenbag]

Boris you really like your pie don't you!

 

[Zombie_Flesh]

BLUF: I am not going to get inviolved.

If I draw even with no intent to shoot (first bad decision) it is possible that will incite him(or her) to escalate the situation and bring force to me, which would force me to shoot him (fleeing is a better idea). Then I may need to deal with a criminal/civil suit which could cost me 20k-50k or more. What ever he is stealing is not worth that amount (let alone the hassle and mental anguisgh I would need to deal with)

Better to call the cops and slink away to record everything on my cell phone camera or notepad or memory. Let them handle the situation - they have pepper spray, tasers, and dogs to end the situation in a less deadly manner - and if someones gotta shoot them I would it prefer to be someone else.

Now if he is breaking into my home where my wife and child are - its a horse of a different color. If he is breaking into my neighbor's house I might intervene but not definitive, was it the daughter's boyfriend coming over "friendly" for a visit and needed a screwdriver from the shed to make entry? Don't know.

I like the idea of using the least amount of force to keep myself and my family alive and well.

 

[Boris bush]

Boris you really like your pie don't you!

Maybe it should be my sig line...

FWIW, my wife makes the best pies ever made. You name it, I like it.......

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Six: Obviously what you'd actually do in reality vs what you think you'd do when posting on the Internet might not be one and the same, but as for myself, it'd be difficult to not say something.

I understand completely. However, I think it would be wiser to say nothing unless you felt it necessary for your own safety.

I think that there is a threat, although it's not immediate or lethal, and would probably draw to low ready.

Careful. If your inclination might be to do that, I would consult a local criminal defense lawyer of some repute before you get the chance to find out whether it would be lawful.

What would happen if you were to do so would depend a lot on the jurisdiction. Where I live, a civilain may not lawfully "exhibit" a weapon in a "threatening manner" except while engaged in lawful self defense; doing so is a felony. In many states there are no specific firearms laws regarding pulling a gun, but one can be charged with assault or aggravated assault. That's likely the general rule, but things do vary.

What would happen should one do so would vary a lot also--the code in Texas and case law in Florida specify that doing so does not contsitute the use of deadly force per se, which has the effect of limiting the level of the charge to something lower than some courts had tried people for. Usually, when something is put in the code or set forth in appellate court saying that a particular act does not constitute a particular level of criminal conduct, it is because some court had decided otherwise in a prior case.

The question for you is, when would you be prmitted to draw. I'll suugest that in the OP scenario (property crime, no overt threats) you probably couldn't , but you should consult a lawyer.

I'd get the kids/wife out of the way, retreat to some distance and call 911 (and have anyone else present call).

Very good idea.

 

[beeenbag]

Kleanbore,

Do you ever get tired of repeating yourself?

I think this is the 4th or 5th thread that concerns this same basic concept that I have read, and it is always you and a few other people, fiddletown is one, that are always pointing out the same exact thing over and over and over. I don't see how you do it. After so long of trying to get somebody to understand what I'm saying, I'm done.

Just wondering what your stress level is about right now? lol

 

[quatin]

The thief in so many words, tells you that he's not scared of you, and simply ignores you and continues what he was doing. He does not make any threats, he's not carrying a weapon that you can see, he just keeps walking or keeps looking for stuff - as if you didn't exist.

What do you do?

I may be going on a tangent, but I laughed when I read this.

I visit martial arts forums as well as gun forums. The self defense discussions are so vastly different. Gun forum posters are pretty clear on what to do in "fear for your life situations", but get completely stumped on situations where self defense is called for, but a gun is not. Martial arts forums have the polar opposite problem. "Fear for your life situations" get a plethora of varied responses, but if you post this exact situation in a martial arts forum you would get the same response from everyone.

"If someone was stealing my stuff , unarmed, and turned their back to me. They would get knocked out."

I normally advocate firearms training to martial arts guys, but perhaps I should encourage martial arts training to some of you gun guys too.

 

[Boris bush]

Where I live, a civilain may not lawfully "exhibit" a weapon in a "threatening manner" except while engaged in lawful self defense; doing so is a felony.

I am going to have to ask for a link to the local codes where you live where it says you can not exhibit a weapon on your property. I aint saying it aint so. I just need to see where it says that YOU on YOUR property can not exhibit a weapon.

I just need proof that on your land and or in your house you can not exhibit a weapon. If thats the case a pistol can not even be OCed if you answer the door, and someone might feel threatened by the exhibition of an OC pistol in a holster, you just became a felon. I find it hard to believe.

No round about the way about it either. I dont need anymore thinks or assumtions. Just a helpfull link to the law you are quoting. Thankyou.

 

[beeenbag]

"If someone was stealing my stuff , unarmed, and turned their back to me. They would get knocked out."

I was kinda thinkin that but you gotta watch what ya say around here or you will get torn apart for doing something "not necessary" or "tactically" wrong. Granted I don't want any more trouble than I have to deal with but... come on.

I normally advocate firearms training to martial arts guys, but perhaps I should encourage martial arts training to some of you gun guys too.

I think this would be a great idea!

Although I would think of my self as more of a barnyard fighter than a martial arts kinda guy (im not real flexible)

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

Boris Bush, now you're playing word games. How did you get from this:

a civilain may not lawfully "exhibit" a weapon in a "threatening manner" except while engaged in lawful self defense; doing so is a felony.

to this?:

I am going to have to ask for a link to the local codes where you live where it says you can not exhibit a weapon on your property.

Also, you seem all wrapped up in the idea that since you're on your own property, that you are judge, jury and executioner. Not so. You can't sentence someone to death for trespassing or theft, plain and simple.

 

[jae011]

if it is at night the guy might have a weapon and you cant see it. if he is on my property taking my stuff he is going to get shot dead.im not taking chances and risk getting shot myself or just stand there and watch him walk away with my possesions.

 

[Kleanbore]

Kleanbore, Do you ever get tired of repeating yourself?

Yep. However, I would rather do so than take a chance that someone will be misled by the false and misleading bravado and bad advice of of others and end up losing his clean record, his fortune, hls livelihood, his clean record, and his personal freedom.

I think this is the 4th or 5th thread that concerns this same basic concept that I have read, and it is always you and a few other people, fiddletown is one, that are always pointing out the same exact thing over and over and over.

I'm glad you've noticed.

However, saying the same thing to the same people is not my objective. It's the new readers or those who have not gone through the longer treads who need the help.

The old ones have either learned something, proved that they are impervious to learning, or assumed for some reason that some of us are speaking to them over and over on the same thing. The really smart ones would consult their own experts in their own jurisdiction before it's too late.

Yes, there are the usual suspects--Larry Ashcraft, rbernie, cosmoline, fiddletown, ArfinGreebly, hso, Sam1911, TexasRifleman, and a few others, some of whom are or have been qualified tactical instructors, and/or attorneys, most of them having had professional training, whom one will see "repeating themselves."

There were also some others who quit trying to help some time ago. One can buy their books, or watch them on the Shooting Channel, or perhaps, if the should ever arise, consult them as experts to assist his attorney in his case.

 

[rbernie]

I normally advocate firearms training to martial arts guys, but perhaps I should encourage martial arts training to some of you gun guys too.

So what are the laws in your jurisdiction WRT allowing you to physically assault and/or detain a trespasser or thief? Do you have any idea?

If not - you might not want to plan on thumpin' anybody until you figure that out. It sure would suck to find out the hard way that there is no legal justification in your state/town for such things.

 

[Boris bush]

Also, you seem all wrapped up in the idea that since you're on your own property, that you are judge, jury and executioner. Not so.

Oh my goodness. Have I said that? If so please show me where.

What I am (not going to be able to convey, obviously, since logic is ignored) saying is you can have a wepon on your land, in your house in any manner you want. If your life is threatened and someone feels threatened and cries to the police about a firearm being pointed at them then we have come full circle. In a life threatening situation lethal force is allowed under the law (where I live).

I have never ever once ever said I would shoot or kill anyone for any reason. My beef is how you guys think a murder rap is in your future for being in posession of something you legaly own on your property.

If the robber runs, and the police come 20 minutes later and discover you are legaly armed, what can he do? You have no idea what the criminals intentions were when they entered your property without permission. By default I will assume the worst and work my way down, and whadya know, I can legaly do it. A firearm will be on me, Never said it was for a blood thirst, a need to murder or whatever these minds are far fetching here. It looks more like when your property is entered against your will you will assume the best. They will scream and run at the sight of you unarmed. If the situation escilates, then and only then will you go to the next step. By then its too late. Thats where I get you guys have no or little experience with a backyard robber or 3 people beating your neighbors door down. By the time you folks realize the work your way up to a reaction is needed, it is too late. Your best bet is to ACT and make it swift and without hesitation.

Life is yours to do as you please. Realize you are not going to convince me that the least amount of resistance to unwanted entry to my property is not an option for me. I have seen how things can go down and it is waaaay easier to de-escilate than to try and bring myself upto speed with the situation...

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i live in va any thief who didn't run immediately becomes suspected of mental defect. i think i would defer any kinda action that i might regret till i had no choice.

 

[Robert]

In a life threatening situation lethal force is allowed under the law (where I live).

Again the OP precluded this in the first post.

My beef is how you guys think a murder rap is in your future for being in posession of something you legaly own on your property.

Depending on the state one lives in and the actions taken by the BG upon confrontation it very well could be. A firearm is not a do all tool. And it is not always the first or correct answer to a problem.

I have seen how things can go down and it is waaaay easier to de-escilate than to try and bring myself upto speed with the situation...

The term is Force +1 and it is something I am very familiar with. But I was only a State Trooper... AAA with a badge as they say.

Life is yours to do as you please.

I will thanks!

 

[waterhouse]

Boris, serious question (this got posed to us at FLETC when someone answered a scenario with "the first thing I would do is draw my gun"):

It is noon. You come home and a guy is stealing something from your wife's car parked in the driveway.

You pull your gun and point it at him. He puts down whatever he was stealing, puts his hands up in the air, and starts walking directly at you. Right towards you. You are now pointing your gun at a man walking at you with his hands in the air.

What do you do now?

 

[heeler]

My question to waterhouse is say the same scenario you just asked Boris but instead of drawing your legally carried pistol when you see the guy in your wifes car you keep it out of sight and he turns and starts heading toward you.
What are you going to do?

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

make it trickier you know its being recorded on your own security vid system since all the tactical guys have em. be a bummer when your own vid shows you shooting a guy with his hands in the air. the problem with any weapon is it tends to limit your thinking. ie when all you got is a hammer everything looks like a nail. thats why most martial arts training starts empty hand . my motto in my old age is a good run beats a bad stand everytime