So you stumble across a thief...

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Sad times, I was hoping to learn, what to do when I run across a thief on my property, but his like many other threads in S&T turns into an argument about whether it is legal to defend one's property, home, self, others, etc.

So far I have learned don't shoot him, oh wait I already knew that.

NM law says I can defend my property with lethal force, but case law says I can't unless it is in my dwelling.


You pull your gun and point it at him. He puts down whatever he was stealing, puts his hands up in the air, and starts walking directly at you. Right towards you. You are now pointing your gun at a man walking at you with his hands in the air.

What do you do now?
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Backup and yell to stay where he is. He is using your "good nature" to get closer to gain an advantage, possible take possession of your firearm. The first reaction when a gun is pointed at you should not be to slowly walk toward it. If he is talking to you, he is trying to distract you. If he continues either run or shoot. I would prefer to run, because the police/jury may not make the same assumption I did.
 
Boris, serious question (this got posed to us at FLETC when someone answered a scenario with "the first thing I would do is draw my gun"):

It is noon. You come home and a guy is stealing something from your wife's car parked in the driveway.

You pull your gun and point it at him. He puts down whatever he was stealing, puts his hands up in the air, and starts walking directly at you. Right towards you. You are now pointing your gun at a man walking at you with his hands in the air.

What do you do now?
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Since her car is home and it is noon. The wife is home. She would have already taken care of it.
 
Does anybody carry NON lethal weapons?

Why not blast them with pepper spray? It would be something that wouldn't come with as much legalities if employed, yet highly effective.

I don't know about where you all live but in Ky, pepper spray and tazers and such are considered physical force. So this could be area sensitive.
 
You pull your gun and point it at him. He puts down whatever he was stealing, puts his hands up in the air, and starts walking directly at you. Right towards you. You are now pointing your gun at a man walking at you with his hands in the air.

What do you do now?
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Tell him to stop and get down - if he keeps coming, then a threat has materialized whether he has a visible weapon or not. give him the choice to live or die - when he crosses the line, game over.

In Florida, they call it the Castle Doctrine.....if you are threatened where you feel your life, or that of your family or innocent bystanders is in question, you have the right to use deadly force - this also applies to your car
 
Tell him to stop and get down - if he keeps coming, then a threat has materialized whether he has a visible weapon or not. give him the choice to live or die - when he crosses the line, game over.
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This would be highly debateable in the court of law. The Castle Doctrine does not cover your lawn in most states if any. You are not justified in employing deadly force against someone who is going to attempt to beat you up or thrash you unless they are inside your home. You have to feel that your LIFE is in danger or SERIOUS BODILY INJURY. This does not mean a black eye from a fist fight.

Im not tellin ya what to do, its your party. Just gotta watch that fine line stuff.
 
My question to waterhouse is say the same scenario you just asked Boris but instead of drawing your legally carried pistol when you see the guy in your wifes car you keep it out of sight and he turns and starts heading toward you.
What are you going to do?
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I'd still be in my locked car, having not ever exited it when I saw the criminal. After that, pretty much post # 2, call 911, take pictures, be a good witness.
 
This would be highly debateable in the court of law. The Castle Doctrine does not cover your lawn in most states if any. You are not justified in employing deadly force against someone who is going to attempt to beat you up or thrash you unless they are inside your home. You have to feel that your LIFE is in danger or SERIOUS BODILY INJURY. This does not mean a black eye from a fist fight.

Im not tellin ya what to do, its your party. Just gotta watch that fine line stuff.
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Re read what you posted. It is a confused post. You cann't use lethal force if someone is going to beat the snot out of you (great bodily harm), then you say you can only use lethal force in a bodily harm or seious threat. You countered what you first said.

So from the looks of it, from what you think. Defense in the house is OK. In my state I can use lethal force anywhere I feel your mentiond criteria. The movie theater, the mall, stop and rob. But then for some reason, the space between my actual house I live in and where public ground begins. Read, my property, I can not use lethal force.

It not only makes little sense what you just said. It makes no sense at all.
 
Well let me say this a little more clear for you to understand. Unless there is an obious reason to fear for your life or serious bodily injury, for example, multiple assailants, they are armed, they have forcibly entered your home, the outcome of what happens to you after you shoot someone (one on one) that is not armed is up in the air and in the hands of a jury. They will decide whether your case is justified.

That is all I am saying, you might be justified. Odds are you will face a judge though.

Can I ask what would be wrong with NON lethal force?

See this is where it gets tricky.... you didn't understand my post earlier because you were of the understanding that serious bodily injury meant being thrashed or beat up. Where as I am under the impression that it means critically wounded.

You could get a jury full of people with your understanding or mine... its a toss up
 
it gets tricky state to state or even county top county what will be ok where i live in va may not be ok in fairfax sad to say
 
Trust me... I don't like the thought of someone invading my privacy and robbing me of my security either. I think it should be like it was in the old days when they hung horse theives but the sad fact of the matter is, its not like that anymore. In order to be vigilantic any more you have to walk a very fine line in what you do and even then you leave your fate up to 12 people alot.

I have to say I have been with you on some of the things you said but this is not one of them.
 
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This would be highly debateable in the court of law. The Castle Doctrine does not cover your lawn in most states if any. You are not justified in employing deadly force against someone who is going to attempt to beat you up or thrash you unless they are inside your home. You have to feel that your LIFE is in danger or SERIOUS BODILY INJURY. This does not mean a black eye from a fist fight.

Im not tellin ya what to do, its your party. Just gotta watch that fine line stuff.
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Castle Doctrine in FL allows the use of deadly force if you feel your life is threatened. If some person comes at you AFTER you have told them to get down and they see your gun, then you have the right to feel threatened, because you do not know what they have or not. Put the dog down and quick before you get hurt or killed
 
beenbag. I know what you are getting at. I have a few key points that need to be understood first off.

At what point during a snot beating will it become great bodily harm. When it does reach that point and half your teeth are knocked out and blood in your eyes have blinded you, you can not put things on pause and inform your attacker you need to go to the next level of defense.

I work with a guy that will not use 100% lethal force. He says he will shoot the knees out, arms and work his way up. Now you face charges because you just told the police your plan was to induce great bodily harm, disfigure and maim a person. There is no working upto it. When lethal force is authorized it can be legaly used. There is no working your way upto it. There is no gray space. Either you can or you can not. A person commiting a crime on my property and the condition of my family being unknown to me because I know they are home is threat enough while I am on my property. If it were in a walmart parkinglot, it would be a no go (a no go on lethal force). Either you can or you can not. Knowing when you can and doing it and not lolligagging about getting it done is not going to look good with a half maimed person on your land. Either you do what is legal and right or you are a consciensious objector to taking a life. At that point you are at the mercy of the criminal. Not my idea of living a life full of fear of doing what is right no matter what it means I have to do to insure Mine and myself are free from harm. It is that simple as long as I follow the rules..
 
You pull your gun and point it at him. He puts down whatever he was stealing, puts his hands up in the air, and starts walking directly at you. Right towards you. You are now pointing your gun at a man walking at you with his hands in the air.

What do you do now?
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You feel your life is in danger by an unarmed man with his hands in the air walking toward you? Highly debateable.

You might not know for a fact that he is unarmed but lets say you shoot him and he is indeed unarmed. What is the story to the responding officer gonna sound like?

Lets set the scene here, your car window is smashed and a burglary attempt is ovious. Burglary is not a crime against persons so it does not constitute lethal force. There is a dead unarmed theif laying in your yard and you are in possesion of the weapon that fired the shot. All you have to go on is your word, which is not evidence. It kinda looks like you shot a theif, not a threat.
 
Lets set the scene here, your car window is smashed and a burglary attempt is ovious. Burglary is not a crime against persons so it does not constitute lethal force. There is a dead unarmed theif laying in your yard and you are in possesion of the weapon that fired the shot. All you have to go on is your word, which is not evidence. It kinda looks like you shot a theif, not a threat.
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At walmart you are 100% right.

On my property you are wrong.
 
So what are the laws in your jurisdiction WRT allowing you to physically assault and/or detain a trespasser or thief? Do you have any idea?

If not - you might not want to plan on thumpin' anybody until you figure that out. It sure would suck to find out the hard way that there is no legal justification in your state/town for such things.
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Actually, home invasion/burglary is considered a forcible felony in my state. You are allowed to use lethal force to prevent a forcible felony. So you are in your rights to shoot the thief. However, common sense wise, if you don't want the killing of another person riding your conscience and whatever frivolous lawsuits that may follow, there are much less consequences of a physical blow.

Police aren't out to get you. I do see these crazy stories where people get in trouble with self defense, but those are such rare cases. If you want to be 100% safe from the law, then you have to stand and watch while your property gets stolen, but again I'm speaking from a common sense point of view. If you knock out a thief who is stealing your property, which police officer is going to nail you as the trouble maker? I've seen all out brawls at bars where no one gets arrested. Police aren't motivated to write up reports on minor crimes. However, if you shoot the thief and he's critically wounded or dies, they are forced to process the incident according to procedure.
 
At what point during a snot beating will it become great bodily harm. When it does reach that point and half your teeth are knocked out and blood in your eyes have blinded you, you can not put things on pause and inform your attacker you need to go to the next level of defense.
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This is why you stop the threat before it gets to that. You have more options than just running or shooting. You can use pepper spray, tazer, martial art skills, whatever you have that is not lethal.

I work with a guy that will not use 100% lethal force. He says he will shoot the knees out, arms and work his way up. Now you face charges because you just told the police your plan was to induce great bodily harm, disfigure and maim a person.
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If you pull a gun and even point it at somebody in alot of states, you have used lethal force.
 
beenbag

have you ever used a firearm to stop a property theft on private property? I have so I speak from experience. I was thanked by the guy with the five point badge.

In reality though I saved the thief from a severe beating by another person he stole from the night before. A bat was about to take swing on him as he fought the owner of the car. The racking of the shotgun (already loaded, but the sound got all present to snap out of it) was all it took. The kid was already pretty well beatup and the threat had stopped. Wonder what charges would have been brought up on the others for the use of excessive force. Will never know.

Stop thinking. Start telling us what your experience is. If there is none to go by then hope you never ever get any.

Maybe you should take real life experiences and compile what happens and get back to us on how the display of a deadly weapon changes things and how many legaly displayed deadly weapon owners never get a murder rap. It would be of much more help then just thinking crazy stuff up.

FWIW the kid had a knife he was trying to get to. I noticed right away, but my neighbor did not. The kid was charged with several crimes and I never had to testify because he got a bargain (as most criminals do in the justice system) but maybe he is straight and narrow now because of his experience at the muzzle end of a shotgun. I will never know.

Take it how you want. I will draw a conclusion from my experience when I read some of these very well over thought scenarios (thats all it is too, a scenario that NEVER happened) here.

Nothing more or less about it for me.
 
Posted by Boris bush: I am going to have to ask for a link to the local codes where you live where it says you can not exhibit a weapon on your property. I aint saying it aint so. I just need to see where it says that YOU on YOUR property can not exhibit a weapon.
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As a citizen, I cannot "exhibit" a weapon in a "dangerous or threatening manner" except when engaged in a lawful act of self defense.

It is not local code; it is state law, and it preempts all local codes and ordinances.

There is no reference to property--it applies everywhere. Most criminal codes apply everywhere.

You will see, from time to time, laws that contain exceptions for otherwise prohibited acts if one is on his own property. One that comes to mind has to do with visitors to a property owner carrying a gun on certain property in Illinois--that's from memory and probably rather inaccurate. The prohibition against open carry in Florida does not apply on one's own property (but watch out for easements). There are obvious exceptions to laws that govern fishing or the taking of game. That's not a complete list, obviously. "Castle" laws do not legalize murder, but they put different requirements on defense of justifiability where they apply

However, most criminal codes that apply to one on the courthouse lawn also apply in your on yard or on the back 40, and most firearms laws apply everywhere unless there is a specific exception.

It may get a little murky when it comes to trespass. Laws vary from place to place. In some states you may call the police, and they are limited to issuing a citation. In general, you may not hold anyone, but there may be an exception or two. And you sure don't want to harm anyone. Don't try to figure it out for yourself. Consult a local attorney. Get on the wrong side of the law and you'll pay the same expense manyfold anyway.

I just need proof that on your land and or in your house you can not exhibit a weapon.
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Do you plan on buying property here? And remember, it is "exhibit in a dangerous or threatening manner."

If thats the case a pistol can not even be OCed if you answer the door, and someone might feel threatened by the exhibition of an OC pistol in a holster, you just became a felon. I find it hard to believe.
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I wouldn't want to assume that for myself. Open carry is prohibited in al of the major counties around here, at least outdoors. I do not think it is indoors; it may very by county. I see people open carrying in stores in some places and not in others.. That part of the law is not subject to state preemption.

No round about the way about it either. I dont need anymore thinks or assumtions. Just a helpfull link to the law you are quoting. Thankyou.
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Not sure you would do with it. The section of the code to which I referred is Missouri Revised Sautes, Chapter 571, Weapons Offenses, Section 571.030.1 (4), with exceptions at 571.030.2 and 571.030.5.

One can read it over and over and still not be fully cognizant of the meaning. Why? Well, someone was convicted of violating that section of the code and appealed on the basis that his gun had not actually been shown to the other person; he appealed, and lost. Seems that the term "exhibit" is not defined in the code (an oversight), and the State Supreme Court had to rule on the meaning.

As a friend used to say, there's a lot of that going around. Unless one understands all of the relevant laws and how they work together and all of the relevant case law, he should not presume that he understands what a law means.

For example, not all states have laws that pertain to "brandishing" or to what happens when one "exhibits".... However, look up "assault" in its various gradations. You said it yourself: "someone might feel threatened". If that results from a knowing and willful act committed by you and designed to do so, ... well, there you go, that's the applicable part of the code, taking into account, of course, all of the relevant case law.

A lay reading of the code is just not something that can be relied upon. I use this rule: if the laws says that something is probibited, it is, at least until one is able to get the law overturned; on the other hand, just because one cannot readily see that soething is not prohibited, he should not assume that it is lawful. Could be covered in other sections or in case law.

I hope you find this helpful.
 
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