Springfield Armory & Rock River Arms - No More for Me

[Nature Boy]

Big business has never been for anything except their own profits

And any business that isn't in if for profit is called either 1) a charity or 2) bankrupt

Where is the statement from IFMA? If SAI and RRA were misrepresent by this group, shouldn't there be some communications from these lobbyists either corroborating or refuting that claim?

 

[mjsdwash]

You need sustainability, and profit. RRA will be scrounging for market share in the coming months, and Springfield is as much an importer as a manufacturer, and someone else can take up that importing if a boycott hurts the manufacturer. Trading sustainability for profit is not a good business model, though people are far quicker to forget these days. Ask who's still boycotting Uber, United, Apple, Chevrolet today.[/QUOTE]

 

[Yo Mama]

And any business that isn't in if for profit is called either 1) a charity or 2) bankrupt

Where is the statement from IFMA? If SAI and RRA were misrepresent by this group, shouldn't there be some communications from these lobbyists either corroborating or refuting that claim?

Bigger problem is that the IFMA is solely and only SAI and RRA! Aint that funny? A p.o. box and a lobbyist is the totality of the IFMA.



Sooooo.....in reality a statement from the IFMA is a statement from SAI and RRA.

 

[USAFNoDAk]

From "The Truth About Guns": https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2...-illinois-ffl-licensing-scheme-for-carve-out/

"While its prospects are still unsure in the House, if signed by Governor Bruce Rauner, the new law will mandate state licensing for all Illinois gun dealers. It will also restrict all others in Illinois to nine firearm transfers per year.

The lobbyist for the Illinois Firearms Manufacturers Association (IFMA), Jay Keller, traded that group’s opposition to the bill in exchange for a carve-out, removing Prairie State firearms manufacturers from the licensing requirements.

Two companies provide the bulk of the funding for IFMA: Springfield Armory and Rock River Arms."



SA and RRA and their lobbyist got themselves, as well as 'big box' stores, exempted from the Illinois dealer licensing requirements, at the expense of all the rest of us. No more SA or RRA firearms bought or sold for me. Good luck to them as they set out on their own, leaving gun owners and dealers in Illinois behind.

I wonder if this is just a revenue generator for the state. How much will the licensing cost for gun dealers? How long is their license good for? Why require both a federal AND a state license to be firearms dealer, other than for pure revenue?

 

[RPRNY]

I wonder if this is just a revenue generator for the state. How much will the licensing cost for gun dealers? How long is their license good for? Why require both a federal AND a state license to be firearms dealer, other than for pure revenue?

Because then Springfield, rather than WDC, may determine who and who may not deal in firearms in the State of Illinois. And for those unfamiliar with the State of Illinois, not only would that allow for closing down g firearms dealers but it would allow a more individualized source of revenue for Illinois government officials, shall we say.

 

[Bobson]

I have excellent accuracy with Glocks inside 25 yards

So does everyone else who knows how to shoot.

IMO this is all being blown out of proportion. I take it as a bad judgment, poor strategy, maybe even just a lack of awareness. Not intentional deceit.

Did SA/RRA screw up? Yeah, regardless of the reason. Am I gonna move forward as if both of them and their entire product line is dead to me? No.

 

[stonecutter2]

This isn't the only forum to take a negative view of SA/RRA. The continued push to demonize them is interesting, considering they were at the NRA convention with a new CCW pistol being offered for sale.

Those who insist they were plotting to deprive IL citizens of their 2A rights and being totally evil about it until they got caught are winding up a conspiracy theory with no facts. If anything the businesses were just doing business - hired a lobbyist who reported to them when something happened. It was just one item on their very full plate managing an ongoing business along with family.

Oh, but NOOoooooooo, they were really undermining the Constitution by employing some political operative to ruin gun sales in IL at the first opportunity. Yes, that's it, their evil anti gun side was exposed - the two faced illegitimate sons of perdition were really sellouts making it harder for guns to be sold in their home state. Has to be, it's all right there in the news!

You really sure about that?

I see it as being out of touch with a rogue lobbyist who was hired to make deals and got handed one to make the gun industry look bad. Seems like politics as usual in that state, why that can't be possible is obviously less attractive than beating on the victims in this case - SA and RRA. Or at least yet to be proven they deliberately were throwing their customers under the bus.

Goes to the bill - adding excessive financial penalties to gun dealers, and their response at worst makes the law look like special interests got a free pass. In that case future litigation may well deep six the bill after it gets passed. Which, it hasn't yet. And may not be simply because of the shenanigans. This thing isn't even law yet.

Who is being hurt by this and who benefits? "I won't buy SA/RRA ever again!" means it's definitely an attack on a gun manufacturer, and the people with the torches and pitchforks are their own customers. What better deal to pull off by anti gunners than that? Again, we are talking POLITICS in an anti gun state, same as the one which had it's former Governor incarcerated for selling the legislative seat left by WHO? Obama.

If you think they aren't capable of pulling off this kind of stunt to make SA/RRA look bad you aren't well informed. They grow up some pretty anti American politicians there - the previous POTUS, duh. But go ahead, blame the gun makers for something they didn't agree to nor were they previously informed about it until they got blindsided by this in the news.

If you can't see the tell tale marks of Alinsky politics in this you aren't capable of understanding what we are really up against in the future. There is more to the war on us as gun owners than hiring Poly Science teachers to beat protesters with bike locks. The cloak rooms of legislature are their real battle grounds and it would seem they are getting one over on you.

Tell me how this doesn't justify what Glock said.

By all accounts the IFMA is basically 4 people. You mean to tell me these companies fund this thing outright and have absolutely no idea what it's doing? What, ignorance and negligence are okay for the heads of SA and RRA, but ya know, Hillary for Prison?

I also just want to say this, because someone probably should. It's not a popular thing here, but it should be said. Liberals are Americans, too. Just a different viewpoint. It doesn't make them anti-American.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

I also just want to say this, because someone probably should. It's not a popular thing here, but it should be said. Liberals are Americans, too. Just a different viewpoint. It doesn't make them anti-American.

Correct, many are simply ignorant.

 

[Yo Mama]

By all accounts the IFMA is basically 4 people. You mean to tell me these companies fund this thing outright and have absolutely no idea what it's doing? What, ignorance and negligence are okay for the heads of SA and RRA, but ya know, Hillary for Prison?

I also just want to say this, because someone probably should. It's not a popular thing here, but it should be said. Liberals are Americans, too. Just a different viewpoint. It doesn't make them anti-American.

Important distinction, liberals are actually very different than the left. The left will not hear reason, liberals have in the past been open to negotiate.

 

[SHOOT1SAM]

I understand the anger and the sense of betrayal, just like we went through with Ruger and S&W...however, they changed; whether they saw the error of their ways from true enlightenment or from the bottom line, it doesn't matter.

If anyone here prays the Our Father, they pray "...forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us...". In other words, "Lord, forgive us, ONLY as much as we forgive others".

For those who STILL can't get passed the past, it's like being the party that can't get passed the last election.

Sam

PS: For the record, this WILL make me give some serious consideration if & when SA comes out with the XD in 10mm, as they reported they're going to do at the S.H.o.T Show.

 

[Demi-human]

Same experience here but no thread is complete without some Glock hatered.

Well, it was wide open. 8) Just don't care for them. I prefer stainless is all.

So does everyone else who knows how to shoot.o.

Ouch. Don't most bullseye lines START at twenty - five? I, as a matter of course, will not question your shooting abilities. Gaston`s ridiculous statment (tit), and equally silly retort (tat).

Shoot well. Demi-human

 

[kemikos]

I wonder if this is just a revenue generator for the state. How much will the licensing cost for gun dealers? How long is their license good for? Why require both a federal AND a state license to be firearms dealer, other than for pure revenue?

That's just it; we don't know. None of that is specified in the bill. All of those provisions are left to the (yet to be appointed) licensing board to decide (with no oversight or recourse), along with other things like "What is to be included in the required dealer training course, and how much will it cost?" "What will the required examination consist of?" and "How long and in what form must the dealer store the required records of the transactions?"

This being Illinois, as soon as a Chicago Democrat gets to appoint the board, the answers will become things like "$20k fee," "1-year duration," "40 hr training course," "a 6-hour exam administered by the board's chairman's cousin's company," and "video recordings of every transaction, kept for a minimum of 15 years."

And before you write me off as another paranoid blue-state gun owner, consider that Senator Harmon (the sponsor of the bill) has said, in debate on the senate floor, that the intended purpose of this bill is to close down three specific gun shops that he claims (with zero evidence) are participating in an organized conspiracy to sell guns to straw purchasers. If he can make that happen, does anyone think he cares a whit about the fate of the rest of the dealers in IL?

 

[Demi-human]

Whether one disavows both companies and sells all of the firearms and paraphernalia of such, or merely thinks twice at future purchases. Or cares not one bit. This dialog and our conversations are what keeps vigilance over our rights. To not talk, is to not have issue.
Demi-human.

 

[chicharrones]

This was a sellout by SA and RRA.
It has been stated before that the IMFA IS Springfield Armory and Rock River arms.
There are 4 officers in the IMFA

• President: Dennis Reece (Springfield Armory)
• Secretary: Tom Reece (Springfield Armory)
• Treasurer: Chuck Larson (Rock River Arms)
• Executive Director: Jay Keller (Lobbyist)

This wasn't a "going rogue" operation by Mr. Keller. This was a willful undermining of the 2A by these two companies. Had they maintained their opposition to the bill, it would have never made it out of the senate. Now they are putting on this email blitz to try and drum up grass roots opposition to SB1657. Give me a frickin' break. They are responsible for allowing this bill to pass the senate in the first place, now they want to kick it back to us and say....hey we just found out about this, we need your support. Likely when it passes and further restricts the rights of the citizens of Illinois they can sit back with their carve out and say...."that is a shame but we tried".

I am sorry but this level of selling out our rights needs to be met with swift and harsh actions. Both Reeces' and Larson need to sell their company and be gone from the firearms community. I will not purchase another product from either company until that is the case, nor will I purchase a firearm from any distributer or store that carries SA or RRA products.

I sure would like to see a source showing all four on the board of the IMFA. That would settle this very clearly in my mind.

 

[TomJ]

Earlier in the week I called SA to let them know they needed to do whatever they could to make this right. My phone number was obviously on their caller id, as I received a call back from them this afternoon. The lady I was speaking with asked if I had any questions or comments. I told her I read the latest statements they released, had never met Dennis Reese so I was not making any judgments as to his character but like many people was having a hard time understanding how he could not have known what was going on. It wound up I was talking to his daughter. She said things had happened that could not be disclosed yet. My advice to her was to have her father provide an explanation as well as documentation as to what happened, as we're living in a time where politicians and CEO's routinely lie to us, so skepticism is to be expected. FWIW she couldn't have been nicer and we had a very civil conversation. If their lobbyist really did this without their knowledge, they need to provide that documentation asap. If they were aware of this I don't see how I can support them in the future.

 

[il.bill]

...
If anyone here prays the Our Father, they pray "...forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us...". In other words, "Lord, forgive us, ONLY as much as we forgive others".
...

You are right - it does say that right in The Book.

I do forgive them. They are only human. But ... that does NOT mean that I want to give Springfield Armory any more of MY money to help pay for doing things with which I disagree.

 

[RPRNY]

Earlier in the week I called SA to let them know they needed to do whatever they could to make this right. My phone number was obviously on their caller id, as I received a call back from them this afternoon. The lady I was speaking with asked if I had any questions or comments. I told her I read the latest statements they released, had never met Dennis Reese so I was not making any judgments as to his character but like many people was having a hard time understanding how he could not have known what was going on. It wound up I was talking to his daughter. She said things had happened that could not be disclosed yet. My advice to her was to have her father provide an explanation as well as documentation as to what happened, as we're living in a time where politicians and CEO's routinely lie to us, so skepticism is to be expected. FWIW she couldn't have been nicer and we had a very civil conversation. If their lobbyist really did this without their knowledge, they need to provide that documentation asap. If they were aware of this I don't see how I can support them in the future.

That is a huge start.

They were wrong. They got caught. Maybe there was some film- flam between their lobbyist and the legislature (it IS Illinois). They changed their position. They're trying to make things right. Like you, I will reserve judgment until I know more, but they are headed in the right direction, and that matters. If they only turned around because they got caught, they have to spend some time in the dog house.

 

[dh1633pm]

Both seemed to have learned the lesson from the 90's that they might get a temporary gain, but a long term loss. Or it could be that both were terribly ignorant. There seems to be press both ways. The bottom line is that we (gun owners) aren't going to sit quietly anymore. If it quacks like a duck ........

 

[DoubleMag]

From post 140 ^^ above...

''FWIW she couldn't have been nicer and we had a very civil conversation. If their lobbyist really did this without their knowledge, they need to....''

....fire the lobbyist.

If in fact that alleged lobbyist did act without authorization, which I seriously doubt, and subsequently was removed,I would start to possibly believe SA & RRA ''didn't know''. Emphasis on start.

In any event, if Ralph goofed up, Ralph has to go. Otherwise it's all grandstanding IMHO

$.02

 

[DT Guy]

Well, went to the LGS yesterday (the largest SA dealer in Illinois, from what they say, and it sure looks like they could be) and did NOT buy an XDe. Got a nice 686 SSR, though.

The clerk told me the store owner had called Dennis, who apparently is on a first name basis with the owner (this store probably stocks about 400+ SA handguns at any time) and Dennis wouldn't speak to him. He got an 'assistant' instead, who wasn't able to answer any of the LGS owner's questions.

Apparently, the owner of another REALLY large LGS in Illinois also called this shop's owner, to see what can be done about the situation; they're concerned they're sitting on huge $$$$ SA inventory which has, apparently, completely stopped moving.

Just repeating what the clerk said, and not saying it's true, but the people with skin in the game seem to be taking SA's actions very seriously.


Larry

 

[SHOOT1SAM]

You are right - it does say that right in The Book.

I do forgive them. They are only human. But ... that does NOT mean that I want to give Springfield Armory any more of MY money to help pay for doing things with which I disagree.

And I agree; I was referring to those who are still angry at Ruger and S&W, 20 years later. Hopefully SA & RRA will see the light. Until then, if I do purchase a SA 10mm XD, it will be when I find a used one.

Sam

 

[RecoilRob]

Lawyers and Politicians (pretty much one and the same) look at the world with different eyes than normal people, and no doubt whomever initially gave the green light for the deal that was made thought he/she was being pretty sly and that it was a good deal for them. Deals behind the scenes are made all the time and obviously whomever this was didn't think about or understand the larger picture of what this would look like to the General Unwashed Population.

That's how the Political Machine works and they corrupt normal thinking people once they become involved with the swirling mess that is Government. It's no coincidence that your toilet swirls the mixture as it goes down the drain....same, same. I bet the Head Honcho's were shocked to get all of the negative comments from us and it should serve as a good thing in the end to bring them back to reality rather than the world that they must deal with in IL trying to stay alive while working with a totally corrupt Government.

 

[Tirod]

I appreciate those who are writing informed and detailed responses. Until the IFMA leadership was detailed in the thread, much of it was speculative.

However, we are still dealing with SA/RRA acting as if they deliberately entered into a scheme thru their paid lobbyist, and not willing to consider it was a baited political deal to damage their business. When is that discussion going to happen? Considering the obvious backlash of playing toesy with an antigun law, do you think the owners were completely ignorant of that, or attempting to deal with the longer term affects if it passed?

They have to live and work in that state and deal with those legislators. Do you want SA/RRA to survive in the marketplace, or not? What would you do to keep your business going and your employees working?

Apparently, no matter what, you would like to see another American gun maker go out of business and leave the market to European Branded makers. I understand how that works - 65% of cars sold in America aren't American brands. You - most of the responders in the thread - would rather by foreign makes not Detroit products - so lets run American brands out of business.

Not saying I'm a flawless American Firster - I own a made in Japan line assembled vehicle and I have owned a Glock. Meh.

How is dealing with anti gun politicians in a historically bad anti gun state on one proposed measure yet to be passed into law the justification for boycotting them nationally? It's really an Illinois problem. Does this mean I can't buy a 1911 from either? They make quite a few of those.

Really much ado about minor political haggling in one state where any anti gun victory helps Soros and Bloomberg. I don't see where it's a pro gun reaction, I see it playing into their hands. You are handing them a victory even if the law is never signed into effect.

You are still getting played and won't admit it. Boycotting SA/RRA is a victory for them, not you.

 

[stoky]

You can count the number of manufacturers that haven't played the crony crapitalist system to their advantage, at one time or another, without using both hands.
maybe Barrett, Savage.................and....................and......................???

 

[WestTexShooter]

I appreciate those who are writing informed and detailed responses. Until the IFMA leadership was detailed in the thread, much of it was speculative.

However, we are still dealing with SA/RRA acting as if they deliberately entered into a scheme thru their paid lobbyist, and not willing to consider it was a baited political deal to damage their business. When is that discussion going to happen? Considering the obvious backlash of playing toesy with an antigun law, do you think the owners were completely ignorant of that, or attempting to deal with the longer term affects if it passed?

They have to live and work in that state and deal with those legislators. Do you want SA/RRA to survive in the marketplace, or not? What would you do to keep your business going and your employees working?

Apparently, no matter what, you would like to see another American gun maker go out of business and leave the market to European Branded makers. I understand how that works - 65% of cars sold in America aren't American brands. You - most of the responders in the thread - would rather by foreign makes not Detroit products - so lets run American brands out of business.

Not saying I'm a flawless American Firster - I own a made in Japan line assembled vehicle and I have owned a Glock. Meh.

How is dealing with anti gun politicians in a historically bad anti gun state on one proposed measure yet to be passed into law the justification for boycotting them nationally? It's really an Illinois problem. Does this mean I can't buy a 1911 from either? They make quite a few of those.

Really much ado about minor political haggling in one state where any anti gun victory helps Soros and Bloomberg. I don't see where it's a pro gun reaction, I see it playing into their hands. You are handing them a victory even if the law is never signed into effect.

You are still getting played and won't admit it. Boycotting SA/RRA is a victory for them, not you.

It is not that complicated, nor will it be cheap.

I do not think that people here are so ignorant as to believe IFMA (which is S/A & RRA) did not do this without thought. If those 2 companies are that stupid, perhaps they should go out of business.
.
They have a choice to make - move to free states and survive outside of just Illinois.

Go bankrupt by standing pat.

As for me, and I am sure many will disagree, I have sold my recently purchased XD Mod2 .45. And I have returned the free mags, holster, mag pouch to S/A.

Selah.