State authorities asking gun owners to allow guns to be test fired.

[Nobody's_Hero]

Oh, how the American legal system has changed!

“We’ll be checking on them,” Brown said, as well as the 15 or so registered gun owners who did not show up for the test firings.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is now completely reversed to "Guilty until you can prove yourself innocent."

EDIT: That letter leaves me at a loss for words.

 

[Duke Junior]

Sounds like either a desperate attempt to find a lead in a horrible case or as the my conspiracy side says a way to start a .40 caliber registry.

So true.And then a .38 caliber,.357,.44,.45,...............
This is the start of something very bad in Oklahoma.
And that letter to me is quite near being over the line/edge intimidating in nature.

 

[SomeKid]

I own a Glock pistol in .40 cal. If I lived there, I would have gotten that letter. And I would have ignored it too.

My take on reading it was it had the unwritten message "This is not really a choice, you will comply or we will come for you."

The paragraph about giving information on the new owners over, and the detail they want you to have, is rather chilling. I seem to remember a book, that had children spying on their parents...

 

[Treo]

I think it's been pointed out but this seems to be more a case of starting a database on .40s

This is the primary reason that most of my guns were purchased FTF off the radar.

 

[dalepres]

Wow. This is just plain scary. Like RoadKingLarry said, there is no gun registration in Oklahoma so how does the OSBI know who bought a Glock .40? And without considering who might have brought a Glock .40 in from another state or part of the state or who might have bought a Glock .40 from a private party, or who might even have bought a Glock .40 from any one of several dealers in the state who deal in police trade-in weapons, how can they hope to get anywhere with this exercise?

I once saw an ad where a dealer had a pallet stacked up 3 feet high and plastic wrapped of Glock police trade-ins. What can they possibly hope to learn from a clearly involuntary voluntary weapons check?


And my money is on the killer being someone who knew the girls and had a reason to make sure the girls couldn't talk. Just my opinion.

 

[Halo]

My take on reading it was it had the unwritten message "This is not really a choice, you will comply or we will come for you."

I got the same tone from the letter. The opening paragraph said "voluntarily" but the rest of the letter sounded more like instructions than a request. Even though they seemingly can't force you to submit to testing, anyone who got that letter will no doubt be thinking "What are they going to do if I don't go down there? Will I end up on some list? Will it somehow come back to haunt me?" They basically make a demand in codewords like the mafia requests "donations" from businesses in their protection rackets. Government FUD at its best.

 

[MachIVshooter]

They can determine the manufacturer of the gun used from the rifling, twist, lands, grooves, etc. Then they can contact the manufacturer. The manufacturer can give them the distributor's names. The distributor can give the police the names of the stores they sold to. The stores have the FFL forms and can supply those to the police.

This is why we should buy from pro-RKBA, pro-constitution gun makers; They're the ones who would demand a subpeona before releasing such a list.

On that note, I would doubt this is the avenue the police took to acquire such information; Volkner-McClure act provides some safeguards against this sort of tracing. It would take countless subpeonas and warrants to accomplish this kind of thing if the manufacturer/distributor/dealer weren't inclined to disclose.

I'm thinking they went to one or two police-friendly dealers, got them to release the 4473 info on all the .40 Cal Glocks they'd sold in X weeks/months passed, and then sent out those letters with the accompanying press release to scare the suspect into turning himself in before being caught so he/she could score a better deal. I would bet the number of .40 Caliber Glocks in OK is 50 times the number of letters they sent out.

Personally, I would sue the LEA that had violated my privacy in this case. They have no right to know what guns I bought, where and when.

 

[dalepres]

Personally, I would sue the LEA that had violated my privacy in this case. They have no right to know what guns I bought, where and when.

While you might sue, reality shows that 75% of Americans surveyed by the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation would volutarily show up and have their guns tested on the appointed day and at the appointed time.

Real life also shows that the other 25% will be visited by the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation and get tested as well.

The only difference is that for the 25%, the state paid the gasoline expense by going to them instead.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

This is why we should buy from pro-RKBA, pro-constitution gun makers; They're the ones who would demand a subpeona before releasing such a list.


really? here i thought that they hada keep records of everygun amd where it went. and that atf had acess to those records. and i doubt it would take more than one warrant or supeona per manufactuerer. hardly a countless number though "countless" does make a nice net sound bite

have you ever won one of these lawsuits you seem so eager to file?

 

[MachIVshooter]

really? here i thought that they hada keep records of everygun amd where it went. and that atf had acess to those records. and i doubt it would take more than one warrant or supeona per manufactuerer. hardly a countless number though "countless" does make a nice net sound bite

First, drop the attitude. Once you've done that, read Volkner-McClure (AKA, the Firearm Owners Protection Act). The records are there, and are required to be meticulously kept. ATF and other LE angencies access to those records, however, is not unfettered. The Patriot act did some damage to some of the safegaurds provided in FOPA, but it first must be demonstrated that national security is the reason such records are required for investigation. A routine state-level homicide investigation does not meet that criteria.

have you ever won one of these lawsuits you seem so eager to file?

Look through my three-thousand-odd posts and see how many times I've said I would or someone should sue. Good luck.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

pertinent is a matter of perspective

First and foremost, it is very doubtful that any of the law-abiding, registered owners of the guns tested are the killers.
Second, even if one of the (until now) law-abiding, registered gun owners were the killer, do you think he (or she) would turn in that gun?
Third: the fact that a letter was written to gun owners seems to indicate a registry of guns despite various provisions against keeping such records.
Fourth: The fact that police will be visiting gun owners who didn't "voluntarily" submit their guns for testing seems to indicate a system where "innocent until proven guilty" may not be as highly regarded as some would hope. The possibility that those "revolutionaries" who didn't submit their guns will now come under greater scrutiny and could at some point be forced to comply with testing absent any other evidence of wrong doing also seems to fly in the face of the Fourth Amendment, but who cares right? As long as the police are doing something to find the killers, it's alright with you. Forget that the likelyhood of success from this testing is minimal; forget that it is the law abiding citizen they are harassing if they didn't submit voluntarily; forget that it seems to trample one of the basic tenents of our jurisprudence; oh, and don't forget that it seems a possibility that it could lead down the path to further infringements of our Fourth Amendment rights.



1 correct it is doubtful and after they test those guns the cops will probably focus elsewhere. in the world i live in thats called police work the older the case the further they cast the net especially a case like this

2 if the lawful owner is the killer i suspect not. if the shooter is his crackhead son or daughter the owner may be surprised. in my world we have an awful lotta kids shooting kids nowadays. and if some kid got popped with a 40 and daddys turned up missing daddy might have asked junior some questions

3 folks in olklahoma fill out paper work to buy guns when certain crimes happen the atf et al check that paper work. again thats a lot of what cops do to catch folks maybe its different in hawaii

4 and you are correct there is a chance that the cops will visit the folks who didn't respond and a further chance that those who outright refuse will get to see a second visit with a warrat. thats how our system works here on the mainland. the vounteers just make it faster and reduce the paperwork and manhours. who knows they might help find who killed 2 lil girls. can you show me where a law is broken? a right abused?

so long as the cops obey the law damn right i want em trying every avenue to find the killer. you start with the high percentage moves and work to those with a lessor chance but if they didn't do everything possible i wopuld be outraged and want them fired asnd i don't really mind if heroes of the revolution get their panties twisted. it seems they like how it feels

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

First, drop the attitude.

Yep. And second, please capitalize and use punctuation. Until you do, I'll presume your opinions have the weight of kindergartners, the class of people who write in that manner.

And what does "wanting the government to abide by the law" (Volkman-McClure), have to do with this "revolution" you keep mentioning? You're trying to draw a line that's not even close to existing.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

mach IV just read it and low and behold
Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary's authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation.

 

[JesseL]

If they're basing this on a recovered projectile, I wonder how certain they are that the pistol used in the crime wasn't a 10mm Auto?

Of course I realize that given the relative popularity of .40 S&W and 10mm, this is reminiscent of the adage "when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras", but still...

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

heres a lil primer on what they can and can't do
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS22458.pdf

page 2 second full paragraph gets to the point of why the countless supeonas and warrants nonmsense was well nonsense

 

[dalepres]

Great... Just great... Now they have to send out another 10 letters to the registered owners of 10mm autos. Way to go, JesseL.

 

[dalepres]

Another point, since we're all playing amateur detective here. The reports were that the two girls were killed with different guns. Were both .40 Glocks? Or is there another letter going out soon?

And does Glock make a 10mm? That could eliminate JesseL from the competition.

 

[JesseL]

And does Glock make a 10mm? That could eliminate JesseL from the competition.

Yep, the G20 and the G29.

And now I'm wondering what they'll do if someone brings in a pistol with an aftermarket barrel? Are they going to ask them to come back with the original?

 

[plexreticle]

I don't know whats more amazing, the cops sending a letter like that or people actually taking their guns to be test fired.

 

[MachIVshooter]

mach IV just read it and low and behold
Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary's authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation.

Subsections (and amendments) are kinda important, dontcha think?

(FYI, Wikipedia is not the best place for final, authoritive citations. Try the actual text of 18 USC 926)

The Attorney General shall give not less than ninety days public
notice, and shall afford interested parties opportunity for hearing,
before prescribing such rules and regulations.

It hasn't even been 90 days since the murders, much less would the AG be likely to subject the courts to this kind of time-wasting and civil liberties lawyers field day type of proceedings for what will amount to dawdling with a dead-in-the-water case.

folks in olklahoma fill out paper work to buy guns when certain crimes happen the atf et al check that paper work. again thats a lot of what cops do to catch folks maybe its different in hawaii

ATF is only allowed one annual inspection of an FFL's paperwork without proving that there is a reason for more. IOW, unless they found the actual firearm used in a crime and traced it through the mfr and distributor, they can't just walk into a gun shop whenever a crime has been committed and demand all 4473's filled out for the transfer of X firearm in Y caliber.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

i take it you didn't read the pdf? from crs?

 

[springmom]

heck this give the real manly heroes of the revolution a chance to show their mettle. instead of internet preening.

As I am neither manly nor a hero, and am not overly given to internet preening, let me suggest that the Founding Fathers of this nation went to very great lengths to preserve our liberties regardless of the circumstances. It is when there is great pressure to solve a problem that government moves to squelch liberty in the name of "safety" and "security". Of course, once the problem is solved, the crime is prosecuted, the threat is over...government will not relinquish the rights that citizens allowed to be taken.

No one, absolutely NO ONE, on this board, wishes to see the killers of those two children escape, and you, Cassandrasdaddy, ought to be embarrassed for having suggested or even implied such. Neither do we wish to see the hard-won rights that we enjoy under our Constitution (like freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, never mind the second amendment for a moment) taken away bit by bit.

The false dichotomy here is that it is EITHER "have your guns tested and thereby help find those girls' killer(s)" OR "be some theoretical purist and therefore obstruct justice and let killers go free". That is nonsense. However, even if there were some hope that the monsters who perpetrated this crime would be idiotic enough to walk into a police station with their murder weapon in hand, it would not, in fact, justify the usurpation of our rights.

Rights are difficult to defend in difficult cases and difficult times. And they are never more in need of safeguarding than in such.

Springmom

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the FirearmsOwners' Protection Act [May 19, 1986] may require that records required to be maintainedunder this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at ortransferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State orany political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearmsowners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established. Nothing in this sectionexpands or restricts the Secretary's authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearmin the course of a criminal investigation."


if you believe that they have to wait 90 days before they can acess the records you are mistaken

i can't find the section you quoted to see it in comtext help me out

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

springmom maybe you can show where a law has been brokem or a right trampled here? i am hearing a lot of what i refer to as "it coulda happened that way" but lil real substance

 

[conw]

Happiness is a Warm Gun wrote:

The slaying won't be changed by giving up our rights.

Take off the tin foil hat. People also have a right to volunteer their gun for testing. They had a choice, no one made them do it.

The cops are trying to save themselves time by ruling people out who volunteer, more or less. Not the strategy I'd probably choose, but I hope it works for them.