State authorities asking gun owners to allow guns to be test fired.

[alsaqr]

Unfortunately, OK has a shoddy record when it comes to the railroading of innocent folks. Oklahoma county prosecutor Bob Macy bragged on national TV that he had put more folks on death row than any other prosecutor in the US. It all fell apart when the Oklahoma county forensics examiner, Joyce Gilchrist, was exposed as a fraud. Macy resigned when the Gilchrist case broke.




http://www.bubbaworld.com/gilchrist.html

 

[GingerGuy]

Just imagine for a moment…you are a resident of a small town, a town of 989 people. You know almost everyone in town by name, and if not, you certainly recognize everyone from seeing them from time to time at church or a social gathering.

You have seen two girls together numerous times walking around town during their summer vacation from school. Nice girls with a smile all the time.

One day, you learn, these two girls were viciously murdered, numerous gun shots to the face and body. And left on a roadside to die.

Imagine your outrage that such an act of brutality has taken place in your town.

It’s a wonder a posse wasn’t started to find the murderer(s).

Well after a month, the killer(s) are still walking free. Then you receive a letter from the authorities asking for you to voluntarily submit your weapon for testing on Saturday and Sunday at the Okfuskee County Courthouse at Okemah.

The following Monday, your preacher, knowing you own a handgun asks you, “Did you take your gun to the Courthouse to help the police”?


I have waited for any 40 of 60 people from the small town of Weleetka, Oklahoma to post their comments on this issue. I guess it’s just too painful to even talk about this horrendous murder of two young girls they knew.

I for one would have been first in line to assist the authorities in any way I could to help find this poor excuse of a man. This bastard needs to be found and anything I could do to help would be done.

Hey, America isn’t perfect by any stretch, but I will not worry about my gun rights when some cold blooded killer is loose and has done this to two young girls from my community.

 

[3pairs12]

Well said.^^^

 

[Old Fuff]

The crime was as despicable as a crime can be, so I can understand why the authorities are willing to play any card they can think of. However this one has more holes in it then a piece of Swiss cheese. I think what they did, after the make & caliber was determined by examining the bullet(s) and ejected cases (they don’t say anything about the cases, perhaps for obvious reasons); was to go to local or area gun dealers and go through the 4473 forms looking for names of people that had purchased .40 caliber pistols in general, or of a particular make. Now they are going to check out those guns to see if anything turns up.

But the exercise depends on the killer buying the pistol from a local dealer using his or her own name and identification. That’s a stretch given the many other ways the gun might have been obtained. It also goes on the presumption that the gun owners are expected to prove they are innocent, and not the other way around. Can they simply suspend the 5th Amendment in the Bill of Rights on the basis of the outrageous nature of the crime? The answer would seem to be, “yes they can and are doing so.”

 

[feedthehogs]

Registered owners???? There is no gun registration in the state of OK

Everytime you fill out a 4473, that's registration folks. This is a clear cut case for that argument.

but I will not worry about my gun rights when some cold blooded killer is loose and has done this to two young girls from my community.

When exactly do you start to worry about them?

No event how horrible it may be is no excuse to give up your rights. The more this is done, and the more people give up their liberties makes it that much easier to accept enslaving the people.

It always starts with, Its no big deal, or we are just trying to catch a killer of young girls.


The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal — well meaning, but without understanding.

Justice Louis Brandeis, "Olmstead v. US", 1928

The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

Edmund Burke, speech at Buckinghamshire, 1784

A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither.

Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Madison

If a nation values anything more than freedom, it will lose its freedom; and the irony of it is that if it is comfort or money it values more, it will lose that, too.

W. Somerset Maugham

 

[GingerGuy]

When exactly do you start to worry about them?

I worry now and have for a long time. I don't fault 40 gun owners and 5 others that advised the authorities that they do not own the handgun any more.

That's 45 out of 60 that took the High Road, in my opinion. I defend their personal actions and have stated I would have joined them.

My point is put yourself in their position...there are other places for us to fight our "Rights" battles. And this one is not one of them.

 

[ZeSpectre]

My point is put yourself in their position...there are other places for us to fight our "Rights" battles. And this one is not one of them.

Yes, actually it IS the correct place for a "Rights battle". You say "put yourself in their position", well that's precisely the problem. Those folks are operating on pure emotion right now and that is NO time to allow those folks to set a public policy.

 

[3pairs12]

What public policy is being set?

 

[ZeSpectre]

What public policy is being set?

That you need to "prove your innocence" by bringing in your handgun to be tested if a crime is committed in your area.

May not be a law in the books but that nice official letter certainly makes it a policy.

As they said in Casablanca "round up the usual suspects"

 

[3pairs12]

More like very strong suggestion to me.

 

[davidjblythe]

I really hope that the other twenty people that didn't show are not suspects. That would be a foolish assumption to say "Well, we know that one of these sixty committed this crime. The gun must be one of the twenty not brought in."

I'm surprised that the casings and bullets are kept by the local PD. Are the authorities allowed to enter your home and take your firearm if they suspect you are involved in a crime JUST because you posses the same caliber pistol that was used?

 

[ZeSpectre]

More like very strong suggestion to me.

I guess we're going to just agree to disagree.

 

[husbandofaromanian]

No, you may not inspect my weapon or search my home, car or person. However, if you would be interested in compensating me for assisting you in your investigation, give me a call and we will negotiate a price. The figures I have in mind are, inspecting pistol: $5,000, inspecting car $10,000, inspecting home: $25,000.

 

[3pairs12]

Good luck getting your prices met. No hard feelings Ze. and I'll agree with you on that.

 

[Guns and more]

Then they can contact the manufacturer. The manufacturer can give them the distributor's names. The distributor can give the police the names of the stores they sold to. The stores have the FFL forms and can supply those to the police.

I'm sure the good folks in a small Oklahoma town were trying to help. But, did they realize their data will be in the computer forever. Available anytime, anywhere there is a crime with a .40. I wonder how many guns were purchased in another town and brought here? Are they running every .40 sold in the US? Do they then assume the perp is living in that town? And has a legal firearm? Something doesn't add up here.

 

[highorder]

No, you may not inspect my weapon or search my home, car or person. However, if you would be interested in compensating me for assisting you in your investigation, give me a call and we will negotiate a price. The figures I have in mind are, inspecting pistol: $5,000, inspecting car $10,000, inspecting home: $25,000.

Selling your freedoms ala carte. That's the American way.

Would you be willing to serve 5 years in prision for say, $250,000?

 

[RoadkingLarry]

but I will not worry about my gun rights when some cold blooded killer is loose and has done this...

So where do you draw the line, this time it was two innocent girls in small town Oklahoma, how about next time when it is two young boys in Omaha killed with a 9mm hand gun. or a co-ed in Florida shot with a .38 lets round them up anmd test them all. Any that don't "volunteer" are now suspects, at least in the media.
Next time maybe it is a rape and the per is known to be a black male, do they "voluntarily" round up all the black males in a given area and ask them to "volunteer" to give DNA samples? I don't see it as that much of a reach.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

its only attitude when they disagree its spirit or fire when they agree

and so far no one has pointed to a broken law or right that has been tramplede lots of slippery slope allegations and that is true it is a slippery slope one that 3/4 of the guns owners walked on and i suspect that most of the others will too willingly or in the face of a warrant . issued by a judge after a presentation of need by the cops. and like it or not thats the way our legal system is set up.

MachIV i clicked the link and i still got the same page i had originally and couldn't find the paragraph you quoted. my computer fu is weak so its probably a problem here

 

[alsaqr]

The scumbag/s who murdered those two little girls deserve/s to be executed no doubt about that. The girls probably happened on a drug deal or a meth lab. Have the OSBI eliminated all the known meth makers and druggies in that area?

There were two guns involved in the murders. Why are folks who own the other caliber not being asked to have their guns tested?

As a long time resident of OK I can tell you that folks get railroaded onto death row on some very flimsy charges. A jail house snitch in Ada, OK testified against four guys who got death sentences-two separate cases. In one of those cases the murderer also testified against the two guys who both got death sentences: It took an order from a federal judge to bring on a re-trial. Their case was helped when the Innocence Project came to town.

The town of Ada has had to raise taxes twice to pay off the civil court judgement against the local police.

 

[ilbob]

I wonder if they are checking the guns of all the cops in the area with 40 caliber handguns.

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

Hey, America isn’t perfect by any stretch, but I will not worry about my gun rights when some cold blooded killer is loose and has done this to two young girls from my community.

Really.
So lets say they get all the guns tested but 10.
Still no suspects - still no leads.
Would you be OK with a judge issuing a warrant for all 10 guns?
Maybe the judge wouldn't see enough probable cause to issue a a warrant for all 60 guns but 10 guns and they refused to help, they MUST be guilty right?

What happens the next time a child is murdered. It will happen again in a country of 300+ million likely in next week. Do you round up all the guns in that town? If not? Why? Is that child's life worth less? So if you do it once you should do it for every crime.

Why not make a nationwide database of all guns.
Require annual ballistic testing of every LEGAL gun in America.
Why not? It likely would solve a lot of crimes. Generate leads in dozens if not hundreds of cold cases.

While you are at it why stop at guns. Ballistics usually do not result in convictions. DNA does.

If the government had DNA of everyone in the country imagine how many crimes that would solve. Why not get DNA of everyone when they are born, or enter the US? Unlike ballistic markings DNA never changes and is an exact match.

Now you may say.... No I just think it is ok in this one instance in this one town?
Why? If it is worth it for one person it would be worth it for every victim of crime. Are the thousands of unsolved murder, rape, and assault victims worth less? A life is a life. If giving up our rights is worth it in this instance is is hypocritical to say it isn't worth it in every instance.

Are you for a national database of firearms and DNA? If not how can you be for solving this crime but allowing thousands of other victims not get justice?

 

[Nobody's_Hero]

and so far no one has pointed to a broken law or right that has been tramplede lots of slippery slope allegations and that is true it is a slippery slope one that 3/4 of the guns owners walked on and i suspect that most of the others will too willingly or in the face of a warrant . issued by a judge after a presentation of need by the cops. and like it or not thats the way our legal system is set up.

Our legal system is set up to operate on a "presumption of innocence."

Oklahoma is about a straw away from breaking this law:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

The investigation hasn't gotten that far yet (hopefully, it won't).

Based on the comments and letter posted:

40 people volunteered to surrender their firearms for testing, and 5 people called and said they don't have their pistols anymore. The remaining 15 are suspects by default. The investigators are basically taking stabs in the dark, because they are clueless.

All the state has to do is raid someone's house who wasn't involved in this crime whatsoever and it will be facing a lawsuit. Watch carefully as to what unfolds in this case.

(I'd be surprised if the remaining 15 haven't begun preparing a case for "defamation of character" - at the very least.)

 

[3pairs12]

There already is a database of DNA for anbody that has there DNA ran. There already is a database for anyfirearm that a 4473 was filled out to purchase. There has been nobody saying that the other 15 are suspects. If you got a letter asking to test your particular firearm appartenetly you already on a list right. So what right would you be giving up when you voluntarily have your weapon, that the LEA already knows that you have, test fired. The right to not have your lead or casings in a database. As for the future murder of children hopefully there will be some leads. NOTHING in my book is worth more than a childs life. So don't frown on the people who did show. Just as I don't frown upon the people who didn't.

 

[rbernie]

Please be prepared to provide the name,address and telephone number of the person now in possession of the gun.

Sounds like they are demanding something not required by Federal or OK state law.

Demand that lawful owners of lawful objects provide Bill Of Sale paperwork upon request, and watch people stumble all over themselves to keep records - all in the interest of deflecting scrutiny to another.

Sheesh.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

if i believed that the dna database would be strictly for crime i wouldn't squwack much the problem there is that the info could be used to determine insurance coverage denials for some folks

and i suspect when the smoke clears the judge will issue a warant for the guns that aren't otherwise brought forth. i also suspect it will be a very small number of folks who will need to see a warrant.most folks don't have that many pride issues and their whole identity isn't intertwined with a useful tool