State authorities asking gun owners to allow guns to be test fired.

[ilbob]

In addition to the moral and constitutional violations, the actual testing poses a problem.

If a test is done without showing the testing process to the owner of the gun, how is he to know that the testing process was accurate? Even if everyone is honest, mistakes can be made. This happens with test results from medical laboratories quite often.

If the testing process is not shown to the owner of the gun, and results are merely announced at some point, how can the gun owner verify anything?

There is a great deal of similarity in this kind of testing to vote counting.

Its no different than all forensics. Its dependant on the skill and honesty of the guy doing the tests. Admittedly, that has been a huge problem over the years.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

theres this pesky chain of custody thing they use for all those thosands of forensics tests

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

define huge for us? or at least quantify it?

in ther end this may end up like that story i forget if its biblical or not where the guys are told to pull the tail of the donkey as a truth telling device the tail is coated in charcoal and they check hands the guy with clean hands didn't pull because he knew he was guilty the innocent men didn't care

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

that roadside meth lab story does bring another factor into play

 

[hoji]

Baaaa, Baaaa, Baaaa.

 

[alsaqr]

that roadside meth lab story does bring another factor into play

Malone, the murderer of Trooper Nicky Green, is a world class doper scumbag who ran with lots of other doper scumbags. Did Malone give Greens gun to a fellow dope maker? We will probably never know.

Here in OK dope makers often drop off their meth lab at a recognizable place like a bridge to let it cook. They come back and get the meth after it has cooked. My neighbor found one such lab on the apron of a bridge near her farm. She smelled ammonia and went to investigate. Told her she is lucky that she was not killed.

 

[KelVarnson]

If they think one of those people might be involved in the crime then tell it to a judge and get a warrant, then they can take whatever evidence they need.

Yep, good point. And if they are so convinced that they are doing the right thing, they should get 60 warrants. Should be no big deal, right? After all, what is 60 pieces of paper, when you're trying to track down a child murderer?

 

[SJ1]

I agree about the warrants. Justifiable search and seizure, safety of person, papers, property, and "all that".

Is there any statistical evidence that suggests that guns with a paper trail are used in more crimes than guns with no paper trail?

 

[rbernie]

We have here a police agency trying to strongarm citizens into handing over evidence without any judicial sanction, and basically telling those people "if you don't want to be considered a suspect, you better get down here now and prove you're not the murderer". That is profoundly un-American.

This summary needs to be repeated over and over again until it finally sinks in to every single "the ends justify the means" apologist in this thread.

 

[Nitrogen]

cassandrasdaddy:
My sarcasm detector is broken. If you were being sacrastic, then ignore the rest of this post.

I understand what you're saying, but I still don't agree.
Let's say that what I said wasn't true in practice. What good does voluntarily bringing your gun in for a test do?

You didn't do it, so nothing. You're wasting the lab's time, and officers time. Time that could be better spent investigating, coming up with real evidence to try and find somebody. Remember, that forensics lab has tons of other cases to work, not just this one. You're wasting their time trying to find other killers, and rapists, etc.

Now let's assume that the fickle finger of fate falls on you.
Let's also assume you are innocent. Let's say your .40S&W Glock was one digit off in serial number from the killers. The barrel was forged nearly exactly the same as the killers, in the same batch of pressings. (How do they make firearm barrels anyway? I have no idea, but just bear with me)

So they test your gun, and some overworked scientist in the lab feels that your gun is remarkably similar to the one that killed that little girl.

Guess what? You've now got the cops all over you. Remember, you're innocent. If you just kept your mouth shut, and kept your gun to yourself, the police wouldn't have any reason to wrongfully suspect you.

This happens, and it's documented plenty of times. THIS is why lawyers tell you not to talk to the police. Check out those video links I posted earlier. They are eye-opening.

 

[3pairs12]

Although I agree in part with what you Nitrogen, I think that LEO's are obviously chasing there tales in every direction. So having your gun tested only wastes some money where in time it would help to eleminate some of the tale chasing. It is a LONG shot at best. It sounds if they are going to test weather you show voluntarily or not. So it isn't the volunteers wasting time and money it is the LEA.

 

[conw]

Let's lock this one and start a new one when there's more to go on.

 

[anygunanywhere]

You want my handgun, get a warrant. Speak to my attorney. I am invoking my right to be silent.

Anygunanywhere

 

[3pairs12]

+1 for what conwict said.

 

[dalepres]

The exact lever for sure. And, one of many that will be used time and time again. It is our duty not to be fooled.

It is also to point out that police investigations and prosecuting attorneys are not as structured to finding the truth as most people would like to believe. They are motivated to get convictions. Anyone who has spent much time around the process will tell you that. I have seen several cases where once a certain amount of evidence gets them started they will try to make it fit even if other evidence does not. There is a tremendous history in this country of evidence that was hidden and/or undisclosed that could prove innocent coming to light years later. Officers and prosecuting attorneys have careers and public pressure just like everyone else and thier motivations are not always benevolent.

With that being said, this becomes scary if one of these poor saps submits to a test fire and bullet looks "close enough" to bullets used. This could easily start a cascade of events that would be yet a second tragedy. Then what you get is an innocent man in prison or sentenced to death while an officer and prosecuting attorney get promotions as a totally duped public thinks giving up more rights is a good idea.

Great points, Old School. All of these things are serious risks when law enforcement begins to behave as they are in this case.

 

[22-rimfire]

I would just say "No Thanks". How would one of my guns been used in a murder and then put back so I wouldn't know it was missing?

 

[jonmerritt]

This is a wate of law enforcements time, some one else is pulling strings here with an alternative agenda

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

"Let's say that what I said wasn't true in practice. What good does voluntarily bringing your gun in for a test do?"

lets look at it another way
the cops are looking at 60 folks who own guns that a possible match they could get 60 warrants or try 60 warrants might not fly. but for the cost of a few stamps they have cut that number by 2/3 now they can see whats up with the ones that are left. asny of those folks got a kid into meth?or any of em take off when they get the letter. or you go through all of them and one guy lost his gin right after the killings. believe it or not thats how cops get lucky. or one of the 15 that got sold got sold to someone near the killings. that guy gets looked at harder. they can't look at everyone so they have to play odds and percentages.

it works in real funny ways. in 1979 there was a 15 year old girl raped and killed in springfield va.body found decomposing under an old matress. guy ran a restaurant heard 2 of the kids that worked for him talking about the worg on the street about what happened. he went to the cops and shared that . against all odds that was the link they needed. when they do an investigation they sift through dumpsters of worthless info hoping to find one that helps them and often praying that they will recognize it when it comes through. sometimes they don't realize its important till the second time or third time they look at it. the amount of hours is amazing so anything that cuts down on it is great. hell they could solve this from something as innocous as one of the guys on their list mentioning that his neighbor, who's not on the list, shoots his glock with him , are they going there next?its funny in a tragic way.


i did ask about your experience in court. i do hope your not using that tired tape that gets posted with so much excitement every 30 days as your experience.

 

[ptmmatssc]

Ya know , I think they may be on to something here . Anyone having a firearm should march down to their local police station so they may do ballistics testing on them . Because we know that essentially , just about every caliber/make has been used in a crime , right?
And anyone having DNA should just march down and have a sample taken , since we know there are so many crimes where there is DNA evidence present .

Really , what do we have to lose? We have nothing to hide right ? It's just helping the police to eliminate US as suspects isn't it?



Yeah , sarcasm .


Truthfully , those saying this is "different" because it was 2 "kids" really need to think about what they are saying . A life is a life , young or old . A right is a right , regardless of condition .

Do we really want to set a precedent of asking/requiring people to prove innocence? Should emotion be the driving force in how criminal investigations are conducted? Should people be "guilted" into doing what would normally be against our rights/laws?

The above should not be construed as to not wanting the perpetrators caught and punished . But , it should be done legally and with observance of every individuals rights .


.

 

[dalepres]

hmmmm do they keep ballistics on cop guns? in hind sight it might be a good idea.

How would, or do, cop unions feel about keeping ballistics on cop guns before the fact?

 

[KelVarnson]

Close the thread? If you think the discussion of this subject here has become redundant or low-road in some way, go check out the discussions of the same subject that are taking place on some of the other gun forums.

The clear-cut moderation on THR is like a large rubber mallet hanging over our heads, keeping us from getting out of line on highly-charged issues like this. I'd rather discuss it here than anywhere else.

Please keep the thread open.

 

[conw]

Fair enough, but to quote Pink Floyd... runnin' over the same old ground, but have we found the same old fear?

The thing is, there are a lot of valid points that have been made, but they conflict simply because of the lack of evidence.
The facts:
As it stands, no one's rights have been violated.
As it stands, this is a very ineffective and inefficient investigation method.
This is not illegal.
This rubs me and lots of other people the wrong way.
The folks making the argument against the emotional appeal inherent in the situation, the appeal from the cops to the good people of the small town, are right.
This could get the wrong person convicted.
This could narrow the search to find the killer, simply because - as many said - the killer is not going to bring his weapon.
No one has been charged or directly accused for not bringing his weapon in.
The law enforcement agencies have the right to consider anyone a suspect, and even to say so publicly. Court is where guilt and innocence are decided.

I guess it wouldn't hurt to keep the thread open, but what else can be said?

 

[XsteveX]

at some point it's gonna be like horse shoes.

http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2008/apr/25/policy-expands-use-of-dna-state-expert-sees-to/


anybody have a third cousin, or a whatever twice removed? are you adopted?
why not be interrogated, in the name of poor police work?

Or just make everybody carry a federal ID card.

and I.D. can be forged. we need a permanent solution.

 

[romeo212000]

There is no way in hell I would agree to this. First call would be to my attorney to verify this with him and once he told me no way that is what I would tell them. Also, do they really think they will find the perp is someone who bought and maintains their weapon legally, and will come forward? They are grasping at straws and it would be laughable if it werent so pathetic.

 

[ilbob]

I think that LEO's are obviously chasing there tales in every direction.

Perhaps they are chasing their tails.