ok i have figured out what a straw purchase is, but what about when a son saves up his money but is still under 18 so cant buy a rifle/shotgun he would like to. so he gives his money to his father and then his father buy's the gun for him. Is that still a straw purchase? What are your thoughts on this subject?
Straw purchase?
- Thread starter Glock22
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Low-Sci
Member
Its my understanding - maybe misguided - that it doesn't matter who the two parties are in a straw buy. Mother Teresa could be using Daughter Teresa's saved up cash to buy the gun, but it still is an illegal straw buy if the gun is being bought for someone who otherwise is not allowed to.
The first question on the 4473 is still the same, "are you the actual buyer of this firearm?"
I see that particular question like this though. If a kid wants a firearm badly enough to save up all the money for it and be ready to buy it, the parents can buy the firearm and gift it to him, and tell their kid to save that money from his gun funds for college.
The first question on the 4473 is still the same, "are you the actual buyer of this firearm?"
I see that particular question like this though. If a kid wants a firearm badly enough to save up all the money for it and be ready to buy it, the parents can buy the firearm and gift it to him, and tell their kid to save that money from his gun funds for college.
Geronimo45
Member
To be perfectly legal, buy it yourself for yourself. Said son can be allowed to use it, but has no ownership 'til he hits 18 (you can gift it then perfectly legal).
it doesnt matter where the money comes from, it matters where the gun goes. if its your son, in your house then sense says its your gun irregardless of what room its stored in.( assuming all applicable storage laws are followed) BUT it is YOUR gun and you are fully responsible for what happens with it. id go about this with my son as a "its mine untill your old enough" thats how i just came back into possesion of my old 20 gauge.
its a tricky subject as one can argue that the gun never left your possesion.
its a tricky subject as one can argue that the gun never left your possesion.
d906670
Member
According to Sara Brady its not, at least when its her and for her son.
Hkmp5sd
Member
Don't ask, don't tell. Technically, it is a straw purchase, not a gift. However, keep it in the family, keep your mouth shut and buy the boy a rifle. You could always buy the rifle and give it to your wife as a gift. Who cares what she does with it once she owns it?
Jim March
Member
But I -=prefer=- to suck my tea up through a tube!
Phil DeGraves
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I believe if it is an immediate family member living in the same household, it is legal. Otherwise, your wife could not purchase one for you for your birthday or Christmas, or the other way around and I know this happens alot.
If you buy the gun with the intention of giving it as gift to another person who is not prohibited from owning the gun it is not a straw purchase. The straw purcahse is when you buy a gun on behalf of someone who cannot or will not buy it for himself and your intent is to circumvent the law.
centennial
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saxonpig is 100% correct!
It is NOT illegal to buy a firearm as a gift for a person that is not prohibited by law from owning or posessing a firearm. Period.
It is NOT illegal to buy a firearm as a gift for a person that is not prohibited by law from owning or posessing a firearm. Period.
HankB
Member
I believe there are a lot of instances of a kid saving up his allowance, paper route, or after-school job money for a gun which is ultimately purchased by a parent. I don't think even the BATmen are going after occasional, casual transfers between family members in the same household.
Unless the kid does something nefarious, or the kid takes the money out of his pocket to pay the gunshop clerk as Dad is filling out the paperwork, I don't see this ever being successfully prosecuted.
Dad: "I bought the gun as a gift for my son using my money. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!"
Son: "Dad bought the gun as a gift for me using his money. That's my story and I'm sticking to it."
IANAL, but as I see it, unless Dad or Son commit an actual crime, or do something stupid like posting otherwise on a blog or myspace.com page, there is NO avenue of prosecution for a "straw man" purchase in the above scenario.
(What about a stay-at-home mom who buys her husband a new deer rifle? He's the breadwinner, so did she violate the law by using HIS money to buy HIM a gun?)
Unless the kid does something nefarious, or the kid takes the money out of his pocket to pay the gunshop clerk as Dad is filling out the paperwork, I don't see this ever being successfully prosecuted.
Dad: "I bought the gun as a gift for my son using my money. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!"
Son: "Dad bought the gun as a gift for me using his money. That's my story and I'm sticking to it."
IANAL, but as I see it, unless Dad or Son commit an actual crime, or do something stupid like posting otherwise on a blog or myspace.com page, there is NO avenue of prosecution for a "straw man" purchase in the above scenario.
(What about a stay-at-home mom who buys her husband a new deer rifle? He's the breadwinner, so did she violate the law by using HIS money to buy HIM a gun?)
Zundfolge
Member
The question on the 4473 is; "Are you the actual purchaser of the firearm?"
If you can not truthfully answer that question with a "Yes" than its a straw purchase. Period. Technically what makes a straw purchase a crime is that you are lying to the fed.gov on a one of their forms.
Agent Schmuckatelli is watching.
If you can not truthfully answer that question with a "Yes" than its a straw purchase. Period. Technically what makes a straw purchase a crime is that you are lying to the fed.gov on a one of their forms.
Agent Schmuckatelli is watching.
thumbody
Member
Buy the boy the gun with your money, Let him pay the electric bill,cable bill, credit card bill etc until bill payments equal the cost of the gun.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b14
(B14) May a parent or guardian purchase firearms or ammunition as a gift for a juvenile (less than 18 years of age)? [Back]
Yes. However, possession of handguns by juveniles (less than 18 years of age) is generally unlawful. Juveniles generally may only receive and possess handguns with the written permission of a parent or guardian for limited purposes, e.g., employment, ranching, farming, target practice or hunting.
[18 U.S.C. 922(x)]
(B14) May a parent or guardian purchase firearms or ammunition as a gift for a juvenile (less than 18 years of age)? [Back]
Yes. However, possession of handguns by juveniles (less than 18 years of age) is generally unlawful. Juveniles generally may only receive and possess handguns with the written permission of a parent or guardian for limited purposes, e.g., employment, ranching, farming, target practice or hunting.
[18 U.S.C. 922(x)]
Hkmp5sd
Member
As my old navy instructors used to say, READ THE #$&#$ QUESTION.
As stated, it is not a GIFT. It is purchased with the boy's money. The father is taking the boy's money and purchasing a firearm for the boy. Why? Because it is illegal for a boy under 18 to buy a firearm. As Zundfolge illustrates, the father would have to lie on the 4473. That is the definition of a straw purchase, buying a firearm for someone that either cannot or does not want to fill out the 4473 themselves.
It is stupid? Yep. Is it enforceable? Nope. Is it technically illegal? Yep. Does anyone care? Nope.
As stated, it is not a GIFT. It is purchased with the boy's money. The father is taking the boy's money and purchasing a firearm for the boy. Why? Because it is illegal for a boy under 18 to buy a firearm. As Zundfolge illustrates, the father would have to lie on the 4473. That is the definition of a straw purchase, buying a firearm for someone that either cannot or does not want to fill out the 4473 themselves.
It is stupid? Yep. Is it enforceable? Nope. Is it technically illegal? Yep. Does anyone care? Nope.
Geronimo45
Member
Interesting - doesn't seem to be any problems with gifting a handgun to someone over 18 and under 21. Or maybe I'm not looking at the right page.
Hkmp5sd
Member
It AIN'T a GIFT if you buy it with money belonging to the would-be gift receiver.
Hketc, I think you are splitting hairs. Nobody would ever know the source of the money and I think the ATF has better things to do than question the source of the money when a gun is purchased by a father for his son. Yes, in a very, very strict technical sense it would be illegal. But who would know? Who would care?
But as originally written (son is under 18) a gun cannot legally be transferred to him so it would have to be the father's property until the son turned 18. Then he could give it to him. I doubt the ATF would be interested in any of it.
But as originally written (son is under 18) a gun cannot legally be transferred to him so it would have to be the father's property until the son turned 18. Then he could give it to him. I doubt the ATF would be interested in any of it.
Hkmp5sd
Member
Sax,
I said that previously. No one cares. My parents did it for me when I was under age. In Florida, you can own long guns at any age if your parents ok them.
I said that previously. No one cares. My parents did it for me when I was under age.
In Florida, you can own long guns at any age if your parents ok them.
Zundfolge
Member
Except for the 434 people (so far) who have read this thread ... including Agent Schmuckatelli.
So regardless of what Glock22 does, his official position in THIS thread should be "No, I won't take my son's money and buy him a gun, instead I'll buy him one as a gift and let him spend his money on something else."
Where the money comes from doesn't make any difference. A parent or gaurdian can give his child a gun legally. If you are buying the gun, then you can answer yes on the question. Now if yor child is under 18, you can write a letter for hunting, etc, or be with him. Being with him is the way to go, don't you think?
Glock22, IIRC, you said that you are or soon will be 18 in one of your previous posts. Save up you greenbacks, and when you hit the magic 18, go down fill out the big white paper, and whatever your state requires, and there is no question in anyones mind about 'who dun what'.
iiibdsiil
Member
I tell ya what, screw the kid, buy me a new gun. 
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