Straw purchase question.

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SDM

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--First off this is just a question I have been pondering. I have NO intention of doing anything remotely illegal.--

I know that having someone (who can’t buy legally themselves) give you the money to buy a gun, you go buy it, and then give it to that person is a straw purchase.

What if however, you know someone who has really been looking for gun X? You go to a shop or gun show and see gun X for a good price and buy it with the intention of letting that person have it for the price you paid. A week later you sell to them without ever opening the box. Is that a straw purchase?

What if you wait a month? What if you fire 20 rounds through it? At what point does a “straw purchase” become “I bought the gun and then decided to sell it”?
 
Did you buy the gun for them because they are unable, for legal reasons, to purchase the gun themselves? If not, it's not a straw purchase. As long as both parties are totally legal to purchase, and the gun is not sold across state lines without a proper transfer, you're in good shape. If you make this habit, you'll have problems with dealing without a license, but for a one-time thing, no problem.

YMMV on state laws.
 
I didn't do anything, it is just a question I had been thinking about.

I had wondered about the dealing without a license thing too.
 
I Will Try And Field Your Question

a "straw purchase" is when one person knowlingly purchases a firearm for
someone that is otherwise prohibited (or forbidden) from purchasing the
said firearm for themselves. Its a new ATF project called, "Don't Lie For
The Other Guy". Penalties are stiff, up to a $250,000 fine and 10 years
in the "cross bar hotel"; or both~!:D

BTW, so long as your friend is lawfully able to purchase for himself or
herself but can't find the proper weapon in their locale; I would not
consider this a "straw purchase". But BEWARE, as opinions may vary~!:uhoh:
 
In California, we have to do private party transfers through an FFL. It costs a few bucks, but it most certainly clears you of any criminal liability.

I never thought I'd see an upside to CA's gun laws...
 
a "straw purchase" is when one person knowingly purchases a firearm for
someone that is otherwise prohibited (or forbidden) from purchasing the said firearm for themselves.
Click to expand...


Every time the discussion of Straw Purchases comes up, that is the answer given.

The part in bold italic is WRONG. It doesn't matter whether the person you are buying the gun for is prohibited or not it is STILL A STRAW PURCHASE!. You could be buying a gun for Carl J. Truscott himself and it would be a straw purchase.


Buying a gun for someone else is illegal ... buying a gun as a gift is not.

The question on the 4473 asks if you are the "actual purchaser" of the firearm ... if you're buying it as a gift then yes, you are the "actual purchaser", however if you're buying the gun with the expectation that you will be reimbursed for it that would be a Straw Purchase.

That said, I don't believe what SDM is describing is technically a straw purchase because you where not asked to purchase the gun and you weren't guaranteed that the other person would buy it, so in effect you bought the gun and then sold it later ... but it is in a gray area and I don't trust the BATFE to be fair and reasonable and if they decide to screw you you're screwed. Keep in mind that these are the same people that will murder your family, burn your house down, shoot your dog and stomp on your kitten over a minor paperwork snafu so don't risk it.

The best way to handle it would be to ask the gun shop if they would hold the gun for your friend, or you could put a deposit on the gun to hold it and when you go back with your friend you get your deposit back and he buys the gun himself with his own money.
 
I don't think it matters whose money it is, either. When I buy guns for sweetie, she fills out the 4473 and I pay the money. She then accepts the gun from the dealer. Her gun, her 4473. Where the money came from? Doesn't matter.

Either that, or I've done two straw purchases. :) Were that things were simpler.
 
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I don't think it matters whose money it is, either. When I buy guns for sweetie, she fills out the 4473 and I pay the money. She then accepts the gun from the dealer. Her gun, her 4473. Where the money came from? Doesn't matter.

Either that, or I've done two straw purchases Were that things were simpler.
Click to expand...

You were under the misconception that it was your money. She was just letting you hold it for her. :D :D
 
WayneConrad is correct, where the money comes from is not the issue.

As long as the person who will own the gun is the one filling out the paperwork the ATF is fine ... however there are a lot of dealers who would not sell you a gun under the conditions you described because the definition of straw purchase is just murky enough that most dealers aren't willing to risk their businesses (and maybe lives) to go through with it.

Its for the children ya know.
 
EOD Guy said:
You were under the misconception that it was your money. She was just letting you hold it for her.
Click to expand...

I read that to Sweetie. She laughed and said, "Oh, he's married!"

Zundfolge, I think you're right. Just to make sure, we always explain to the clerk before the purchase that it'll be her 4473, her get-out-of-NICS-for-free card (CCW, that is), her gun, and my money. So far, two out of two gun shops had no problem with it.
 
SDM,
If I were ever to do what you suggest in your first post, I would transfer it through an FFL dealer to get the guns registration out of YOUR name (friend or not). If it were stolden or ever used in a crime you wouldn't have nearly as much to explain to the LEO's!
 
.45man, I read that story a while back. It just cemented moreover in my head that the BATFE is our Gestapo. Nobody is safe from their tactics.
 
SDM,here's the way you should do it.YOU buy the gun for YOURSELF,(if your friend wants one,it might be a keeper,right?For you,that is),shoot a hundred or so rounds through it,decide you don't like it after all,and sell it to your friend for what you paid.Completely legal,and if you do like it after all,your friend may still be looking for one of his own...:D
 
In the case of the LEO getting busted, why did ATF decide they needed to investigate this guy based on his 4473? Everyone checks that block the same. ATF randomly picked a single 4473 to investigate for straw purchase and just happen to nail a guy that had bought a gun for a gift?

There has to be more to the story.
 
CraigJS,

In VA we supposedly don't have registration so that shouldn't be a problem.

kirkcdl,
I like your thinking. I should at least test it just to make sure it works, which could take hundreds of rounds. I wouldn't want anything bad riding on my conscience. And, since I am doing them a favor they should supply the ammo.(again, I am really not in this situation, it was just a question)

I guess a lot of how this would be handled depends on the BATFE in the area and their interpretation of the law, right?
 
How many guns can you sell per year privately before they consider you a dealer anyway?

And suppose you see a gun for a superb price. You know at least a couple of your buddies were looking for it so you snap it up thinking if they don't want it you could sell it to someone else. What's the leagal ramifications of this?
 
How many guns can you sell per year privately before they consider you a dealer anyway?
Click to expand...
As many as you want as long as ATF cannot accuse you of selling guns for profit, ie dealing. If you are buying X number of guns each month and turning around and selling them the next month, you might be in trouble. If you decide to sell 40 guns that have been in your collection for several years, you are in the clear.

IMO, if you keep a gun in your collection for one year, you are safe from being accused of dealing. This is based on the requirement for a licensed dealer selling guns from his personal collection. A FFL can transfer a gun from his "store" to his "person" by entering it in his bound book. After the gun has been in his collection for one year, he can sell the gun without doing any paperwork. If he wants to sell the gun in less than one year, he must log the gun back into his bound book and sell it through his license, doing all applicable paperwork/background checks/waiting periods.

You know at least a couple of your buddies were looking for it so you snap it up thinking if they don't want it you could sell it to someone else.
Click to expand...

As stated above, this is an illegal purchase. You are buying a gun with the intention of selling it to someone else. When buying a gun from a dealer, the sale must fall into one of two categories. Either you are buying the gun for yourself or you are buying the gun as a legitimate "gift" to someone.
 
IMO, if you keep a gun in your collection for one year, you are safe from being accused of dealing. This is based on the requirement for a licensed dealer selling guns from his personal collection. A FFL can transfer a gun from his "store" to his "person" by entering it in his bound book. After the gun has been in his collection for one year, he can sell the gun without doing any paperwork. If he wants to sell the gun in less than one year, he must log the gun back into his bound book and sell it through his license, doing all applicable paperwork/background checks/waiting periods.
Click to expand...

That is not quite true as far as a dealer is concerned. If the firearm has been in his personal collection for 1 year or more, he can sell it without a 4473, but a bound book entry is still required. See 27CFR §478.125a(a).
 
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