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laea7777

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While listening to the Joe Rogan Experience podcast, I heard him and his friends discussing bow hunting axis deer in Lanai. He said (paraphrasing) that the deer were often 2-6 feet away from the arrow by the time it got to them, even though he hit exactly where he was aiming, because they literally heard the arrow being released and ducked or dodged it.

It made me wonder if that's part of why most hunting ammunition is supersonic. There are some small game/varmint .22 loads that are subsonic, presumably to avoid scaring the next target away by being quiet. Maybe most people who use subsonic ammunition also use a suppressor. However, I wonder if you're not using a suppressor, then you're better off with supersonic ammunition, so that even if you're more likely to scare target number two, you're also more likely to hit target number one due to the fact that they won't hear the crack until it's too late.

Though I'm mostly thinking of .22 LR, this would also apply to .44 Special vs. .44 Magnum; I've noticed that with some of the .44 Special ammunition I've seen, rather than having a slightly lighter bullet at subsonic velocities, it will have a much lighter bullet, still at supersonic velocities. Maybe this is why.

Any thoughts on this? Thanks.
 
Looks to me that the issue is that of adequate energy to destroy tissue, break bones and all that other stuff involved in an ethical clean kill.

By and large, it seems to me that for other than squirrels and rabbits or other little-bitty critters, sub-sonic ammo isn't the proper thing to use.
 
Not the same thing at all. Big difference between releasing a 300fps arrow and the milliseconds it takes to ignite a primer and send a rifle bullet downrange, whether it's 1000fps or 3000fps. Critters never hear anything until it's too late.

Subsonic loads can be extremely effective. Way out of proportion to accepted paper ballistics. A .44 or bigger, 250gr or heavier bullet need not exceed the speed of sound to kill most critters under 1000lbs graveyard dead. That 1800lb bull in my avatar was killed with a bullet traveling only about 1200fps. It's the small bores that need velocity to be effective.
 
You kill an animal by breaking body parts, filling the lungs with blood or hitting the central nervous system. There are multiple ways of doing that. MOST modern hunting bullets 35 caliber or smaller are designed to work best when they impact at 1600-2800 fps. Sometimes going faster is detrimental, it just depends on the bullet. But like Craig said, if the bullet is designed to work at slower speeds it can be every bit as effective. On the other hand if you're using a bullet that needs 1600 fps, 1800 fps or whatever then shooting it slower isn't going to be a good idea.
 
Sub or super sonic is irrelevant. Velocity is not as important as accuracy. BP cartridges and muzzle loaders killed a lot of deer and all of 'em were subsonic.
"...most hunting ammunition is supersonic..." Big cases with lots of powder vs a wee case with hardly any powder and usually a lead bullet.
"...subsonic ammunition also use a suppressor..." You cannot suppress a supersonic bullet. It's the air slamming back in at the muzzle that causes the gun shot bang. The bullet is still supersonic out of the suppressor.
"...they literally heard the arrow..." Writer's excuse for missing used for eons. A deer wouldn't know what the sound meant. Any decent bow hunter has string silencers on his bow too.
 
I use subsonic ammo without a suppressor in a .22 for small game. I find subsonics to be generally quite accurate, they are a lot less likely to spook game, and they are more than adequate to go right through the critters and anchor them quite well. I also use 38 special out of a rifle on rabbits, a 158 grain RNFP loafing along at under 1000 FPS. Always complete pass through and the bunny is done on the spot, even with less than ideal hits.

Would I do this with large game? I think a big, heavy cast bullet with a wide meplat would be pretty likely to be quite successful on deer even at subsonic speeds. Say a heavy for caliber 44 mag any up. The trajectory might be pretty rainbow-like so range would be limited, but you would be depending on penetration and making two holes rather than expansion and shock. Would I try this on bear or elk? I would be less eager to do so, but with a big enough bullet I bet it would work. Hard to believe a 400 grain or bigger 45/70 wouldn't do it.
 
Think about what you are asking - "can an animal jump out of the way of a bullet?" :confused:

While listening to the Joe Rogan Experience podcast, I heard him and his friends discussing bow hunting axis deer in Lanai. He said (paraphrasing) that the deer were often 2-6 feet away from the arrow by the time it got to them, even though he hit exactly where he was aiming, because they literally heard the arrow being released and ducked or dodged it.

The premise of your question regarding supersonic vs. subsonic firearm ammunition is flawed, as the evidence leading you to the hypothesis is incredibly flawed. Joe Rogan's statements if your paraphrasing accurately represents his sentiments, are absolutely foolish. The paradigm of "jumping the string" is a real thing, but for any ethical shot being taken, if the hunter is on target, the arrow hits the deer before the jump happens. Here's why:

40yrd shot with a 300fps arrow (BC ~0.07), that gives 0.41 sec time of flight, whereas the sound will reach the deer at 0.11 seconds. An average human Auditory Response Time is in the 0.17 sec ballpark, giving a deer a 25% advantage over humans, that's 0.13 sec... That leaves the deer 0.17 seconds to move before the arrow makes contact. So... 6ft travel to which you've cited to Joe Rogan's podcast, covered in 0.17 seconds = acceleration of 399 ft/s2... Pointing out here, a human can accelerate somewhere around 20ft/s2. Deer don't accelerate 20 times faster than human. Even figuring 2ft, that's 133 ft/s2, again 6.5 times greater than humans... A lot closer, but still not possible based on the research I've seen, which suggest somewhere between 25-40ft/s2 for an animals maximal muscular acceleration. If Joe Rogan and his buddy were missing by 2-6ft, they were missing or they were taking unethical shots at ranges too great, plain and simple.

Entering here a quick note - to DUCK an arrow, the animal ONLY has 32.17ft/s2 of maximal acceleration - the acceleration of gravity. Meaning if suddenly their legs went completely lax, that's their maximal acceleration. So reflecting this against the above data,

Remember, people have been killing animals with arrows, even hand thrown spears, for thousands of years, AND folks have been killing game with sub-sonic rifle ammunition for generations, probably even including yourself. Guys have been killing rabbits with subsonic 22LR's for 130yrs, and hunters have been killing deer with subsonic cartridges like 45colt, 44 Henry, and 44-40 for even longer still...

However, I wonder if you're not using a suppressor, then you're better off with supersonic ammunition, so that even if you're more likely to scare target number two, you're also more likely to hit target number one due to the fact that they won't hear the crack until it's too late.

This isn't a realistic consideration - even with sub-sonics, it's too late by the time the animal "hears the crack." A 300grn BULLET leaving my revolver at 850fps reaches 100yrds at 0.37 seconds. The sound reaches 100yrds at 0.27 seconds, plus a 0.13 second reaction time - total 0.4sec before the animal starts to move, the bullet has already passed through their body (800fps and 0.03 sec travel = 24ft) before they have had a chance to react... Even stretching out to 200yrds, 0.75s bullet flight, 0.67 sound + reaction time, the animal will only be able to "duck" about 1.2" before the bullet strikes their body. I don't know many folks shooting a 44spcl revolver at 200yrds, but even if they did, they'd still kill the deer.

In parallel, a suppressor does not completely silence the shot, and the sound will reach the animal at the exact same time as it would have were it not suppressed. The sound is simply lower in amplitude (volume).

So again - the entire premise here is flawed: Joe Rogan's experience isn't accurate for real hunting situations, and certainly not applicable for subsonic firearm hunting. The physics, ballistics, and kinesiology don't fit.
 
I’m going to try to address everyone’s responses in one post:

First of all, I think I mis-paraphrased the 2-6 feet part. I’m not sure if I’m allowed to post links, but it was the ‘Joe Rogan Experience - Podcast In Paradise (Audio Only)’ at the 31:45 mark that I think is what I was referencing, though I think they also discuss deer ducking arrows in the Steve Rinella episode (#971) - both available on YouTube. So, I apologize if I exaggerated his claims.

Also, I realize this forum is for firearm hunting, not bow hunting. It was just the subsonic aspect that I thought was relevant. But, I can believe that it might not be very relevant, since a subsonic bullet is still going about three times as fast as an arrow.

I understand that an ethical kill is the number one priority, but sometimes the energy of a heavier, slower bullet is equal to that of a lighter, faster bullet, but the latter seems to be more common, though the former would be quieter. Maybe the flatter trajectory of a lighter, faster bullet is the reason for this, not getting the bullet to the animal before they hear it coming, as I hypothesized.

For example, in the case of Hornady Critical Defense .44 Special, we have a 165 grain bullet going 1150 fps (just barely supersonic), equaling 484 ft-lbs of muzzle energy; it seems to me that they could’ve very easily made it a 180 grain bullet going 1100 fps (just barely subsonic), still equaling 484 ft-lbs of muzzle energy - either would potentially provide an ethical kill; arguably, the slower heavier bullet with equal energy would penetrate better on a thicker-skinned animal (or a heavily clothed perpetrator, for that matter) than a lighter, faster bullet, due to a higher sectional density.

It seems like Hornady intentionally made it supersonic. That’s where I got the idea that it was to get the bullet to the target before the sound of the bullet gets to the target. Now, I think it may be to PREVENT the use of a suppressor; or, just to get a flatter trajectory; OR, maybe the lighter, faster hollow-point bullet is more likely to fully expand on impact than a heavier, slower bullet. (Though, the Critical Defense .45 ACP is a 185 grain bullet going 1000 fps, so…?)

Joe Rogan is (roughly in this order) a Tae Kwon Do champion, stand up comedian, UFC commentator, former host of Fear Factor (please don’t judge him solely by this), Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belt, bow hunter, family man, philosopher and 13th top rated podcaster. I got into him because of his podcast. I highly recommend it. (I apologize for going off topic, but someone asked who he is.)

By the way, I am not an experienced hunter. I went pig hunting once with a muzzle loader and didn’t get anything (the only pigs I saw were in a restricted area when I was lost; so, I didn’t even get to take a shot.) For me, this is all theoretical, so far. I’m just trying to educate myself. Thanks to all those who contribute to this discussion.
 
More lack of understanding, and really bad presumptions being made based on partial information.

Also, I realize this forum is for firearm hunting, not bow hunting. It was just the subsonic aspect that I thought was relevant. But, I can believe that it might not be very relevant, since a subsonic bullet is still going about three times as fast as an arrow.

It's not about bullet vs. arrow velocity either - read my post above again - the arrow gets to the deer long before the deer can react. A bullet gets there faster, but the arrow still gets there fast enough to kill before the reaction. Not being a hunter yourself, I can appreciate your lack of understanding for how hunting is done, but I can assure you, arrows kill deer every season, and deer don't jump out of the way of the shot at ethical ranges. Yes, a deer can take a step and walk out of the way of a bullet at 1,000yrds, or an arrow at 100yrds, but that's why guys don't typically hunt game at those ranges, and those which do, only do so under specific conditions. (Withstanding here, I don't own a bow which could be heard at 100yrds. They're all too quiet).

I understand that an ethical kill is the number one priority, but sometimes the energy of a heavier, slower bullet is equal to that of a lighter, faster bullet, but the latter seems to be more common, though the former would be quieter.

Sound generated by a firearm is largely dictated by the pressure of the cartridge, the powder used, and the overall energy. Even at 900fps, the bullet traveling subsonic, the gases leaving the muzzle will be super sonic, especially those leaving the BC gap of a revolver (since you're now using the 44spcl Critical Defense load as your evidence). There's no guarantee a sub-sonic load, of the same energy, will actually be any quieter than a supersonic load, especially when you're considering a 165grn at 1150fps vs. a 180grn at 1100fps.

Read my first post again - you're letting your mind wander into imaginary land when the math to get your answer is VERY simple. The difference in a time of flight for sound vs. a 1100fps bullet vs. a 1150 bullet is going to be measured in milliseconds - the animal doesn't have a chance to "jump out of the way" of either bullet.

Maybe the flatter trajectory of a lighter, faster bullet is the reason for this, not getting the bullet to the animal before they hear it coming, as I hypothesized.

Most of us hunt with supersonic rounds because we can shoot much farther than we could with subsonic loads. But when you start splitting hairs between an 1100fps load and an 1150, there's really no difference in trajectory. When you get to longer ranges with modern bottleneck cartridges, you can't outrun aerodynamics - which means a lighter, faster bullet doesn't actually shoot flatter than a heavier, slower bullet. Heavier bullets have better ballistic coefficients - they're more aerodynamic - so they retain velocity better. It's like a guy with a lower salary being better with money than someone with a higher salary. The penny pincher starts out with less than the high earner, but he does better keeping it, so he ends up with more money in the long run. Bullets work the same way.

For example, in the case of Hornady Critical Defense .44 Special, we have a 165 grain bullet going 1150 fps (just barely supersonic), equaling 484 ft-lbs of muzzle energy; it seems to me that they could’ve very easily made it a 180 grain bullet going 1100 fps (just barely subsonic), still equaling 484 ft-lbs of muzzle energy - either would potentially provide an ethical kill; arguably, the slower heavier bullet with equal energy would penetrate better on a thicker-skinned animal (or a heavily clothed perpetrator, for that matter) than a lighter, faster bullet, due to a higher sectional density.

It seems like Hornady intentionally made it supersonic. That’s where I got the idea that it was to get the bullet to the target before the sound of the bullet gets to the target.

Hornady made it supersonic because 1150 is as fast as they could push the 165grn bullet they chose to load. I can assure you, "beating the sound to the target" was NOT a consideration of Hornady in designing the Critical Defense 44 SPCL load - that "Critical Defense" part of the name means it's a defensive shooting load, not a hunting load. They wanted a moderate recoil load, so they chose a light bullet.

So learn something here - heavier bullets produce greater recoil. A 180grn bullet at 1100fps will have about 8% greater recoil than a 165grn bullet at 1150fps. (Google appropriate powder loads for these bullets, then google free recoil calculator, if you don't already understand the math).

Now, I think it may be to PREVENT the use of a suppressor

Nope. 1) Nobody is using a suppressor in a 44 Spcl revolver for which the Critical Defense load is designed. 2) Flying supersonic does not preclude or "prevent" the use of a suppressor - guys shoot suppressors on supersonic rounds every day.

just to get a flatter trajectory

Nope - as mentioned above. 1) It's a defensive load, trajectory isn't a major concern. 2) The trajectories of a 1150fps 165grn and a 1100fps 180grn bullet are almost identical at ranges even farther than the designed purpose.

OR, maybe the lighter, faster hollow-point bullet is more likely to fully expand on impact than a heavier, slower bullet. (Though, the Critical Defense .45 ACP is a 185 grain bullet going 1000 fps, so…?)

Nope - not all bullets have the same designed construction. Hornady gets to design their bullets however they choose. If they want a 180grn to expand more or at a lower velocity than a 165grn bullet, they simply design the bullet differently. Weight isn't the only design parameter for a bullet; Jacket thickness, jacket taper, tip fill, bonding, tip segmenting, etc are all aspects which allow the designer to match a bullet weight with a desired expansion velocity. Want a 165grn to pass through a deer? An FMJ or monometal bullet will pass through. Want a 180grn to explode on contact? Give it a super thin jacket, a big polymer tip, and a non-bonded core - it'll tear itself apart and penetrate less than the 165grn FMJ.
 
The phenomenon the OP was referring to is "jumping the string". The velocity of bullets, even subsonic bullets doesn't allow reaction of the hunted animal.
 
I had somebody tell me recently that squirrels and rabbits can "dodge" subsonic .22lr rounds. Same person tried to tell me the same story with deer rounds. Total bull, but a common excuse for missing among those who "never miss". People should just own up to, you know, being human and missing occasionally.
 
Here is .308 180 gr roundnose at 850fps. (50 yards) ...not a lot of dodging possible in my estimation. :cool:
Click on watch on Facebook.

 
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I had somebody tell me recently that squirrels and rabbits can "dodge" subsonic .22lr rounds. Same person tried to tell me the same story with deer rounds. Total bull, but a common excuse for missing among those who "never miss". People should just own up to, you know, being human and missing occasionally.

I've shot a lot of rabbits with my .22 firing subsonic' s . Missed a few, but non have ever jumped out the way of the bullet. The last couple of years I've shot a lot of jays of my boar feeder. They never see the bullets coming :D. I had just come back from shooting Jays and saw a fox with scab crossing the lawn at the back of the house. Just as the fox reached the forest edge about 40 mtrs away i shot the fox in the chest with a subsonic .22 . The fox dropped on the spot and never even twitched.
 
There is a HUGE difference between 900 FPS and 200 ish FPS. Which is why critters can jump the string but they aren't going to jump the click of a suppressed rifle. Impala are another member of the string jumping clan. I've missed several Impala at 20 or so yards with archery tackle. I had one jump over the arrow and actually kick it as it went by.
 
So, I guess the main reason for Hornady going supersonic with the .44 Special Critical Defense is less felt recoil. As to why they did the opposite with the .45... maybe they're presuming a defense revolver is going to have a shorter barrel than a defense .45 and thus needs the recoil reduction more. Or, maybe the larger diameter and shorter case of the .45 precludes them from making a lighter, supersonic round while still maintaining a good sectional density. Originally, I thought a heavier, subsonic round, even in a shorter barrel, would have less flash and bang than a lighter, supersonic round, but that's a good point about the gases being supersonic even if the bullet is subsonic. I was also thinking that even though they're designed as a defense load, they would probably work as a hunting load too, in a longer barreled revolver or an even longer barreled lever action rifle, but I could be wrong about that; the bullet might actually start to slow down towards the end of an 18" barrel, since the powder designed for a short barrel burns faster (I think).

As far as subsonic .22's, I guess it's more about not scaring the next target, or not disturbing other people/wildlife in adjacent areas as much, and not about getting the bullet to the target before the sound reaches the target.

If I remember correctly, Joe says he target practices at 90 yards but tries to stay way under that when hunting, but it's possible they were extending that. Again, when I listened back to the Lanai episode, I couldn't find the '2-6 feet' part that I thought I had heard. He actually said he was catching hairs on the arrows, meaning grazing the top of the animal. It could be arguably unethical ranges that we're talking about. Thanks for the input.
 
Can deer "jump" an arrow? Yes! I've seen it several times.
Had a couple "almost" jump the arrow, but instead of a lethal hit, a marginal hit and lost deer.
That's the big deal as regards arrow velocity.
I will say, that only one of the near misses occurred with a compound bow.
So, I haven't hunted with a bow in 30yrs.
 
The biggest issues with subsonic rounds, as they apply to rifles, in no particular order: 1- "lawn dart" effect at distance, along with accuracy and stability 2- reduced terminal performance in terms of foot pounds of energy expended into the target 3- the ability to cycle in semi autos.
 
As regards the .45 Revolvers, most lack adjustable sights, so are regulated to available, most common ammunition at the time they were manufactured.
For the .45acp Revolvers, this means a 230gr bullet at ~830fps. For .45Colt, a 255gr at ~900fps.

Lighter bullets will shoot LOW. Conversly, a heavier bullet will shoot higher.
Same issue with the .44spl.
Also, reduce velocity and the bullet (at given weight) will strike higher.
 
Sure, some folks kill Bambi with 1911s--but that demands a fairly high skill level at "up close and personal" distances. I'm not sure of the point of sub-sonics in rifles. Sorta defeats the purpose of using a rifle at all.

Granted, I spent decades working up accurate max-power loads to do maximum damage to Bambi's neck or heart/lungs. That let me eat a lot of deer meat. :) Since I don't shoot the eating part, meat damage was never a problem.
 
Subsonic ammo easily covers 100yds, which is the same coverage you get with a muzzleloader, handgun and a little less than with a pistol cartridge carbine. It also allows you to use a suppressor, which saves the shooter's hearing and may be a factor if you have close neighbors. Lots of reasons to use subsonics out of a rifle, especially if you don't need to cover more than 100yds.
 
This is what a subsonic bullet sounds like going past.



FWIW lots of rounds are subsonic and have still killed lots of stuff. No telling how many critters were taken by air rifles in my life.

image.jpeg

The 45 ACP bullet poking along starting at 890 fps takes .173 seconds to get from muzzle to 100 yards.

The 125 grain 357 bullet starting at 1,450 gets there in .111 seconds.

For the sake of argument, let's forget reaction time all together and just form some data with the .062 second difference in flight time.

So if we eliminate reaction time and acceleration from stopped to any speed and used a number I know off the top of my head, say 60 miles per hour. 60 MPH = 88 feet per second X .062 seconds = 5.45 feet. So if something could react at the same time the bullet left the barrel and go from 0-60 faster than the speed of light, you would miss your aim point by more than 5 feet, with the difference between the two at that distance.

Most stuff can't so they get hit by the slower bullet anyway.
 
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