Suicide a reason not to allow people to carry firearms?

[GuyWithQuestions]

I was in a discussion with one of my roommates this evening and he was quite against firearms, especially concealed firearm permits, unless they're used for sport.

He said that suicide is a good reason not to let people carry firearms. He said that although someone who wants to commit suicide can find another way, people have a strong will to survive and the availability of a gun because of concealed carry laws will make it so much easier than if someone had to use a knife on him/herself. He said that there are more people who die from suicide by guns than those who die from murder.

How would you respond to this?

 

[Oleg Volk]

1. Suicide is a personal choice. Interfering with it should not be a concern of public policy.
2. Misuse or perceived misuse of a tool or technology by someone should not be used to justify impingement on other people.
3. Suicide by firearm has almost perfect substitution by jumps, hanging and other equally lethal methods.

 

[Mannix]

There are plenty of ways to commit suicide aside from shooting yourself. Poisoning yourself, hanging yourself, jumping from a window/cliff/roof, carbon monoxide asphyxiation, overdosing, slitting your wrists, deciding to take a stroll across the freeway, driving into a wall at 90mph, electrocuting yourself, drowning, standing in front of a train, and forcing the police to shoot you, just to name a few.

If someone wants to end their life, not having a gun won't stop them unfortunately, as there are nearly infinite other ways to do so.

In addition, many countries with strict gun control have higher suicide rates than the U.S., like Germany and France.

 

[mnrivrat]

I'm amazed first of all on just what people can make up .

I would challenge anyone to come up with data that shows permit holders are using their carry guns to commit suicide !

Then of course I will agree with Oleg as he right on the money with his reply.

 

[Gato Montés]

I don't know how CCW has any relation to suicide what so ever. By in large the majority of suicides happen in the home, so the right to carry in public is very much arbitrary in this circumstance.

Now suicide in relation to guns in general is used a lot by the anti gun community and is something I never understood. A suicide is a suicide; it does not matter what tools or devices the person used to commit the act. And quite frankly, if someone is dead set on killing themselves I would rather them do it in the least painful way possible rather than cutting or hanging.

I can't remember where I saw the statistics but there was anti gun legislation passed in Canada where suicides were a main proponent of the bill. They figured the same thing that your roommate is saying. Statistics for gun suicides dropped but suicides in general stayed the same. (If anyone can help me in locating these stats that would be great.)

People have killed themselves long before the introduction of the gun, and they will continue doing so long after.

 

[TimboKhan]

Saying suicide is a reason to not let people carry firearms is tantamount to saying that drunk driving is a reason why we shouldn't drive after dark. If you hate guns, it seems to be a perfectly logical argument, but if you give it about .02 seconds worth of thought, you will quickly realize that if someone is hell bent on killing themselves, they will do so by any means available. For example, a guy I knew in high school killed himself by drinking Draino eek. Does this mean that I shouldn't be allowed to unclog a drain because I might kill myself? Obviously, no.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Suicide?

Wow.

That must be why we're banning rope and nail guns and sleeping pills and bridges and train tracks and razors and rat poison and tall buildings and cliffs and gasoline and bathtubs and . . .

I just never made the connection before.

I wonder, just for the fun of it, is there any single thing we use in our daily lives that has NOT been used in a suicide?

 

[CajunBass]

I would be willing to bet the house that if you asked concealed carry permit holders, why they carry, at some point in their list of reasons, "self defense" would come up about 99 44/100% of the time.

Now I'm not very smart, but a person who is interested in "self defense" doesn't seem to me to be a likely candidate for suicide.

 

[Zen21Tao]

Suicide took the lives of 30,622 people in 2001 (CDC 2004). In 2001, 55% of suicides were committed with a firearm (Anderson and Smith 2003).

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/suifacts.htm


(.55)(30,622)=16,842 gun suicides


The Bureau of Justice Statistics estimates this number to be 16, 869.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/frmdth.htm


OK. Here is the trick. Since he sited a statistic as being grounds to support an argument, he must accept a utilitarian argument in which the statistical figure that offers the best utility (in this case, saves lives) most be the one to choose. (Note: If he rejects a utilitarian argument based on statistics then he undermine his own argument which rests on the value of statistical data to justify his claim)


But don’t stop at the 16,689 figure. Also add in the number of non-suicide gun deaths in 2001. The Bureau of Justice Statistics estimates 802 unintentional/accidental gun deaths, 11,671 gun deaths from homicide and an additional 231 undetermined gun deaths. They estimate a total of 29,573 gun deaths for 2001.

Now, contrast the 29.573 gun deaths for 2001 by the number of potential lives saved each year by a gun. This number by is estimated at the high end to be around 2 million gun uses in self defense a year (1) and at the low end of 82,000 times a year (2).


Even using the low end statistic on defensive gun uses, it is clear that each year guns are used to save more lives then they take.


(1) Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense With a Gun," 86 The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, 1 (Fall 1995):164.

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/KleckAndGertz1.htm


(2) National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS)

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

 

[sacp81170a]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=281350

If guns truly influence the decision to commit suicide, then why does Japan have a suicide rate double that of the U.S. even though guns are strictly controlled in that society? For his theory to be valid, it must expain observed data.

 

[McCall911]

Now I'm not very smart, but a person who is interested in "self defense" doesn't seem to me to be a likely candidate for suicide.

+1.

I say no.

 

[mike101]

"In addition, many countries with strict gun control have higher suicide rates than the U.S., like Germany and France."....................and Japan.

Japan still has the highest suicide rate in the world, and the Japanese are not allowed to have guns. Suicide is probably the weakest argument for gun control there is, although that doesn't stop the Brady's from using it (they'll use any excuse they can think of).

 

[Baba Louie]

How would you respond to this?

With sarcasm first to get his attention.
I'd tell him I agree with his well thought out logic. Suicide by gun is so... messy to clean up the aftermath. There's a number of better, cleaner ways to go out ending one's despondent dreary depressed worthless life that are far superior to eating a bullet and not leaving blood and brains all over the place for someone else to clean up later... and that's what's truly important... right?

OK, sarcasm off now.

Is it your roommates job to keep people alive who wish to end their lives? And if so, who appointed him?

Is he, as one who is "quite against firearms" going to protect every woman from rape or domestic violence by larger, stronger males? Or is he going to personally stop all armed robbery and assault of the elderly by younger vicious thugs?

At the opposite end of the spectrum, far from personal one on one self protection, what is his plan stopping genocide of unarmed masses of citizens or subjects by their governments or foreign tribes of, say, machete weilding bushmen or religious fanatics practicing ethnic cleansing?

Might it be that your roommate does not have adequate self control and personal reponsibility enough to carefully control the power contained in a few pieces of metal and a couple of teaspoons of gunpowder, and knowing that, feels that everyone else should share in his insipid inadequacies?

Has he never seen the smile of a 12 year old that shooting a .22 caliber rifle and hitting the bullseye brings? Or the determination of someone to master busting flying clay pigeons and the pride of doing so?

Suicide? Bah! Self control. Let others do as they wish as long as they do not violate or coerce the lives of their fellow sentinent beings... and should they attempt to do so, stand ready and be prepared to stop them in their tracks.

Or words to that effect, should I care to offer comment at all.

 

[Titan6]

What is up with your rommate anyway? He must live a life in fear of inantimate objects?

Suicide is a cultural thing. Japan is double the US, China almost triple. At one time Finland had the highest in the world. Level of gun ownership does not really play a role.There is no relationship outside the minds of a few antis.

 

[RNB65]

How would you respond to this?

I'd find a new roommate.

 

[SteveS]

1. Suicide is a personal choice. Interfering with it should not be a concern of public policy.

Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary probelem (in some cases). Having worked in emergency services, I would disagree. Many of the people I came in contact with eventually got over whatever was bothering them and didn't make any further attempts. I agree that there are some that don't fall into this category.

Suicide prevention is not a justification for a ban on firearms.

 

[Deanimator]

He said that suicide is a good reason not to let people carry firearms.

If a stranger chooses to end his life, out of his sight, it's none of his business.

Will he also ban sleeping pills, bridges and bodies of water as well?

 

[skwab]

I guess I have a hard time understanding how your roommate equates a CHL permit to suicide - If people who carry weapons are more apt to suicide, then I guess the millions of men and women involved in law enforcement, military etc - are all suicidal - in fact, we should ban criminal justice programs from our universities because that might lead to a career which would require the use of a firearm thus putting our young men and women in a suicidal environment -

Crazy! - statistically, one can make the same argument towards automobiles as tens of thousands die each year and even more are injured in auto accidents - but not everyone learns to shoot a gun when they're 16 - no one sees a car as evil and scary, and should be banned.

 

[Titan6]

Well actually LEOs are more likely to commit suicide than many other professions. However that likely has more to do with dealing with the more depressing side of life every single day than carrying a gun.

 

[Wedge]

The two people I knew closely that committed suicide did so without a firearm.

A ban on firearms would have done nothing to save them.

Ask your friend about the suicide rate in Japan.

 

[WeThePeople]

You roommate's argument is one of the most ridiculous that I have heard to date. I'm not being mean, but it really is. What connection does carrying a gun have with suicide? I can see how gun ownership or possession could be linked to suicide, but how exactly can he say that suicides are a reason to ban the concealed carry of firearms?

If a person wants to shoot himself or herself, does your roommate really think that stopping that man or woman from concealing a firearm is going to stop it?

Think about how ridiculous that is. Guy sits at home eating a .357 barrel and thinks to himself, darn I can't do this because there are no concealed carry permits anymore.

 

[WeThePeople]

I forgot to mention that a friend of my mom committed suicide with his sidearm a couple of weeks ago. She lives in a part of the state where folks carry sidearms daily to fend off four legged perps more than the two legged variety. To them, it is a tool, not an evildoer waiting for a trigger finger.

No one suggested that the gun made him do it. The poor guy had major issues and made the decision to end it. I can't imagine what was going through his mind, but I doubt that the gun made him any more likely to do it. If he didn't have a firearm, there are many other ways to do it: rope and tree, car and exhaust, razor and blood vessel, bridge and gravity, etc.

 

[deadin]

I would much rather have someone take himself out with a firearm instead of deciding to whip his car into oncoming traffic at 70 mph or other such methods. IMO involving other people in your death (suicide by cop, etc.) is the ultimate statement of pure selfishness.

 

[mbt2001]

I would respond simply. The RIGHT TO YOUR OWN LIFE. Does he believe in a patient's right to die? I mean that is a liberal cause. If he believes in that what in the sam hill is he doing saying that Gun suicide is evil, but Dr. assisted Suicide is OK.

I don't condone suicide, but there are positions / circumstances in which it is honorable and possibly even ethical. That being said it is most likely the CHOICE of cowardice, but it is a PERSONS CHOICE. To say that they do not have that CHOICE is to say that they are a slave. It isn't a gun issue, except by extension. In Demonizing Gun Suicide, they are demonizing suicide, which I agree with but WE THE PEOPLE OR THE GOVERNMENT OR ANY AGENCY OR ORGANIZATION THEREOF have NO INPUT and SHOULD HAVE NO control over when or why someone chooses to end their own life. To say that man has rights because he has a right to life is to elipitcally say that he has a basic CHOICE on whether or not he wants to LIVE IT. In that context, it would seem that GUNS are justified by extension.

 

[Car Knocker]

Japan still has the highest suicide rate in the world, and the Japanese are not allowed to have guns.

It appears that Japan is now #10 with a rate of 23.8/100,000. Russia has the dubious distinction of leading the pack at 38.7/100,000.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide_rates/en/index.html