Suicide a reason not to allow people to carry firearms?

[pbonebright]

This is just another example of "the second amendment doesn't matter because...(insert genius' brilliant reason here)", when you get right down to it. But the fact is that the 2A does exist, and it guarantees that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. This is very clear if you understand the rules of sentence construction. The only way gun control would possibly stop gun violence is if 100% of guns were destroyed, including military and police, and worldwide. This is clearly unconstitutional and patently ridiculous. What your friend is really saying is that he thinks we should eliminate the Bill of Rights and all go live in a cave somewhere.
---

 

[Tim Burke]

Even if we accept his argument, it amounts to an unlawful prior restraint on a Constitutional right.
However, if he wants to ban gun possession by those that have committed suicide, that would be permissible, and an acceptable compromise.

It seems pointless to debate this issue with logic; most people that appear to use logic to support their gun banning position have had their position decided by emotion. They will not be swayed by logic, even if they try to use logic to support their position.
That's why I like Oleg's posters... while they use logic, they carry an emotional message.

 

[TallPine]

Well, maybe your roommate has a point ... let's say I want to kill myself but don't want to make a mess in the house, so I have to take my gun and go somewhere else to do it. But if it is illegal to carry a gun outside of my house, then I will just decide to live

I surely wouldn't want my dead body to rot in jail because I was carrying a gun illegally

 

[MD_Willington]

A family friend had access to firearms back in Canada, where they use the "more likely to use them to commit suicide" argument, he attached a hose to the exhaust pipe of his van, got himself drunk, and turned on the vans engine and went to sleep forever...

On two other occasions, we had two neighbours hang themselves with an orange extension cord in the shed, one of those two also had access to firearms...

Guess people don't want to leave a big mess so they asphyxiate themselves instead.

 

[Tommygunn]

It has been shown that when you ban guns to prevent suicides, what happens is this; at first, there is a downturn in the number of suicides for a year or so. But then, the suicide rate goes back up, but not to where it was before the ban, it goes up even higher for awhile, then settles back down ... to about where it was prior to the ban. It is as if the people who were dissuaded from killing themselves because they can't acquire a gun are at first thwarted, but then discover there are other ways of offing oneself.
Unfortunatly, banning the means does nothing to remove the REASONS people have for commiting suicide. The gun is NOT the reason, it is only the way (or method) and there are other ways available.
Thus banning guns is only a pallative for those who believe we should "do something" irregardless of "somethings" effectiveness.

 

[crebralfix]

If someone committed suicide, I don't see concealed carry as something useful to them.

 

[mike101]

"It appears that Japan is now #10 with a rate of 23.8/100,000."

No kidding. I assumed it was still Japan. Should have researched it. Now I feel like a Bradyite.

I guess the Japanese are making too much money to be bothering with suicide, these days. I wonder what's up with the Russians all of a sudden.

 

[fletcher]

I strongly agree with Oleg's #1.

That aside, Japan is the prime example of how firearm prohibition does not reduce suicide rate. With strict laws, Japan has roughly double the suicide rate of the U.S.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

TommyGunn,

Do you know where I can get access to that information? Was that in a sociology book or where did you find that?

 

[budney]

Seems like it solves itself: people who commit suicide will never carry firearms again, even without any prohibition.

--Len.

 

[GuyWithQuestions]

Do suicides happen more in the home or in public?

I was wondering if there's any statistics covering how suicides are distributed between the home and elsewhere and in public. I told him that someone can just commit suicide at home if they don't have a permit and he didn't buy that. What also didn't make sense is I used Warren vs. District of Columbia and how the Courts ruled that the government has no legal duty to protect individual citizens and can't be sued or asked for compensation by citizens, so why not let law abiding citizens carry a means of self-defense. He said that that was a logical fallacy on my part because the crime that took place in Warren vs. District of Columbia happened inside an apartment, not in public.

 

[TallPine]

Your roommate has made up his mind, don't confuse him with the facts

 

[Tommygunn]

TommyGunn,

Do you know where I can get access to that information? Was that in a sociology book or where did you find that?

I PM'ed a response.

 

[jcoiii]

People also shouldn't be allowed to own or drive cars, as they could decide to get drunk and drive, or to go on a rampage and kill lots of people....... In fact, your friend should be the first to turn over his car and driver's license.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

He said that suicide is a good reason not to let people carry firearms.

And of course, firearms are the only way a person can commit suicide. It is absolutely impossible to commit suicide by opening your veins with a knife or razor blade, hanging yourself, jumping off a building, overdosing on drugs, or sitting in the garage with the engine running.

Now some may say I'm wrong here, but that's impossible. If people could commit suicide by those methods, there would be a nationwide move to ban knives, razor blades, ropes, sleeping pills, tall buildings, automobiles and garages.

 

[mlandman]

Dude...You need to be more selective in your roommates!
This is your second post today about "conversations with roommate" ​

 

[cgraham]

While I agree banning guns would affect the suicide rate little, if at all, firearms are the means of choice by a wide margin (45-70% depending on the region of the country): (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m4021/is_n1_v20/ai_20111761 CDC Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report).

I speculate the reason for the popularity of firearms is that death is essentially immediate, and final (if done properly), and guns are usually readily available. The only more peaceful means is by drug OD (which admits the possibility of discovery and resuscitation); however, suitable prescription drugs are not readily available. Other methods involve varying measures of horror and agony. Hanging is not benign. Even jumping from a high building leaves time for perhaps uncomfortable contemplation of one's decision.

There is another issue to consider. I have read many times that "suicide attempts" are a cry for help, and death is not intended. If a person choses a decisive method like a firearm, can this be an issue? Surely the person knows the result is final, and is not looking for help (except for a few that obviously botch the job, perhaps).

One can therefore argue that firearms offer a humane means of immediately ending life for the individual. Since people are going to commit suicide whether we approve or not, they should be permitted this means. Otherwise they will be forced to subject themselves to much more distasteful methods. Carrying a weapon is irrelevant: it is access that is key.

I believe that life AND death belong to the individual and society has no right to regulate suicide by regulating guns or anything else.

I agree with TallPine: your freind's opinion is fixed. Ask him the other reasons people should not be allowed to carry firearms: his reply should be illuminating.


Since Japan's high suicide rate was mentioned several times, I should point out that suicide (seppuku - ritual disembowelment by knife) is strongly embedded in Japanese culture, in part in association with a very rigid sense of honor. So I think Japan is a special case, even if most Japanese choose less ghastly means of death nowadays.

C

 

[indie]

wrong thread disregard

 

[elrod]

Your roommate is dead wrong!

 

[ArmedBear]

I have no problem whatsoever with denying someone the right to keep and bear arms, after he has committed suicide.

Committing suicide should disqualify someone from owning a weapon of any kind.

 

[mlandman]

GW?s posted -
He said that suicide is a good reason not to let people carry firearms. He said that although someone who wants to commit suicide can find another way, people have a strong will to survive and the availability of a gun because of concealed carry laws will make it so much easier than if someone had to use a knife on him/herself. He said that there are more people who die from suicide by guns than those who die from murder.

First, the rate of suicide and the implicit rate of debilitating depression that leads to suicide are an argument for better mental health services. That is the direct approach to dealing with the problem. One can argue that the availability of hand guns may have an impact on the suicide rate because it is an "easy" and "painless" and "quick" method of ending ones life, but the numbers of guns is poorly related to the availability of CWL in any particular state. Few shotguns are purchased to use as a concealed carry. I believe that he is correct on the death rates, but I am not sure of it's relevance. The direct tie-in between "easy" and the feelings of need to end one's life are poorly connected. After all, when someone is suicidal, one is generally not thinking rationally. This excludes the terminally ill, and gravely physically sick. For them, suicide is a planned course of action, after deliberate consideration. A gun may be the only reasonable means due to our laws against assisted suicide. The elderly make up around 18% of the nation's suicides.

There was a suicide rate of 17.6/100,000 in '99 in the United States, of which a little more than half were done with a gun. At the same time, these were the suicide rates for males in countries with various levels of gun control (source: WHO):
Australia: 21.2
Bahamas: 2.2
BAHRAIN: 4.9
BULGARIA: 25.2
Canada: 19.5
China: 16.7
COLOMBIA: 5.5
Cuba: 24.5
Egypt: 0.2
Finland: 34.6
Germany: 20.7
Iran: 0.3
Ireland: 18.4
KAZAKHSTAN: 46.4
Norway: 19.5
SYRIAN ARAB REPUBLIC: 0.4
Thailand: 5.6
UKRAINE: 52.1

The countries' suicide rate is linked to the country's makeup, not the prevalence of firearms or the level of gun control laws.

He is correct, the suicide/homicide rate is around 3/2. Again, this points out the failure of America's mental health services, not the prevalence of firearms as a causal agent.

 

[miko]

Since Japan's high suicide rate was mentioned several times, I should point out that suicide (seppuku - ritual disembowelment by knife) is strongly embedded in Japanese culture, in part in association with a very rigid sense of honor. So I think Japan is a special case....

Wrong. Seppuku is a specific rutual to be performed in case of losing one's honor. It's closest analogs in the Western world are romans falling on the sword and duelling - which neither italians nor europeans in general do much.

Japanese suicide rates are due to depression and have nothing to do with the concepts of honor or tradition.
Rather than being an exception, Japanese is a prime example of high suicide rates in prosperous, stable, peacefull societies, like scandinavian countries. The phenomenon is easily and plausibly explained.

The countries' suicide rate is linked to the country's makeup...

Especially wealth, comfort, stability and equality. The higher the level, the harder on depressed misfits who see themselves in contrast with everybody.
When everyone struggles, few have time and inclination to mop.

miko

 

[phaed]

i consider suicide to be natural selection. i also consider it to be humane in certain situations. i'm not sure why people want to "protect" others from it, and i'm not sure why they consider it such a bad thing. the point of gun involvement is moot.

i've always looked in awe at those videos of a bunch of cops drawn down on a man with a gun to his own head, and no one shooting. it just doesn't make sense.

 

[Wedge]

phaed, you must have never been on the family/friend side of suicide. It isn't fun. My brother has gone through patches where he was basically under 24 hr watch, and that is after the hospital discharge. I really find your post offensive.

My immediate family was lucky because we were there for him. Other family and friends weren't. No guns were involved in any of these situations and no "law" would have stopped them.

 

[akodo]

i never liked this gun math of guns save 58 lives and took 24 lives = 34 more saved than killed = guns good

Owning a gun is an expression of freedom. It is saying that a government cannot know every little mitigating detail of your life, only you can, hence you should be free to make good choices as well as bad choices.

Really, if we are going to talk aobut the government placing restrictions on us for our own good so we do not harm ourselves and eachother, the most effective place to start would be to close down every fastfood restraunt, every normal restraunt, every supermarket, and every vending machine. The government could then issue us all meals, heck, they may even give us 12 different choices!

obesity kills more people than guns save or kill. I am overweight, I am much more likely to die from that than from a burglar or murderer.

however, it is about freedom