Supine position shooting?

[thesolidus]

Heard an instructor talking about a supine shooting position in closed space combat/ defense.

Situation was forced entry or surprising an armed assailant at home.
You're armed.
Typically people get into trouble trying to go to Weaver stance or one handed. The assailant can either bowel them over or grab and pull.

Two tactics presented were the standard close to the chest point and shoot. Instinctive but not as accurate.
The other was to drop onto your back, legs tucked back to repel and arms out in Weaver sighting normally across the top of the gun.
Interesting, though i'd worry about shooting myself in the foot!
Concept is that you can't get knocked over, if they take the time to kick you they're an easy shot while a knife can't reach unless they advance (also an easy shot) and most novice shooters will shoot over you and it presents a smaller target.
Also, interesting thought was that any investigation will show you shot from your back in an upward trajectory. In court this looks like you were knocked down and are legally "unable to retreat."

I've seen similar defense used in martial arts and someone good at it is a pain in the [] to attack. Used to train in ground fighting. Teacher used to say the biggest hit was hitting the ground, if you start down you avoid the fall.
Still worried I'd shoot myself in the foot!

Anyone ever heard of this?

 

[kd7nqb]

never heard of it but seems interesting.

 

[sm]

Anyone ever heard of this?

Yep.

Mentors passed this forward to me, and I was born in the 1950's.

I.
Keep in mind I grew up with Veterans of Wars, plus we had Polio victims.
Meaning, many folks were Supine, as they spent time in bed.

So yes, we really did have real beds, reclining chairs, and couches on ranges, and folks had quality lessons and practice with live ammo.
We went so far, to replicate bedrooms, and front rooms where the couch, recliner was, on these ranges, or indoor shoot houses we had.

Oh, we had elderly folks and expectant moms back then too...*wink*

II.
Some of these Vets, were in wheelchairs of course.
So again, quality lessons and practice if they were tumped out of a wheelchair, and had to defend themselves.

Some were amputees, some had no mobility in legs, if they had them, plus other physical limits, such as amputations of hand, lower arm, or complete arm. Along with paralysis from the waist, thorax on down, or on one side, or...


III.
Nothing has changed, except the year on the calendar. Nobody is guaranteed they will always be whole, ( these physical limits temporary due to surgery ,or permanent) nor that the fight will not end up on the ground.

The fight might start while one is in bed, or taking a nap in a recliner, or sleeping in a recliner because they are pregnant, or recovering from surgery , or maybe they had a fight with the spouse and having to sleep on the couch when evil chooses to show up in the wee hours.

Interesting thing is, one recommended and often used firearm kept on person was a dedicate .38spl , with standard pressure 158 gr LSWC. back then...

Low pressure round, affording quick effective hits, and less likely to be impeded with bed linens, pillows, blankets, sofa blankets...and may be used with either hand.


The more things change, the more they remain the same.

 

[Grey_Mana]

Let's see: anguine, bovine, canine, feline, lupine, murine, porcine, ovine, ursine, vulpine... What was supine again?

 

[sm]

Lying on the back.

Re: Supine

Well it ain't "supper" said with a southern drawl, as that is "dinner" . *grin*

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/supine+

 

[bratch]

I've shot from supine in training simulating being knocked down, etc but it would have to be an unique circumstance for me to get into it in a fight. Going supine looses your biggest asset: mobility. Stationary targets are easier to hit.

 

[sm]

bratch,

You are correct and bring up good points.

Then again, you and I have have discussed how we have an aging society, and we will continue to have for some time.

We also have all the aches, and pains that come with age...
And we do have some brave young men and women that are coming back from from Conflicts, and the Vets have some limitations.

We have limits of being mobile...

No, none of use want to end up on the ground. Still a consideration of getting lessons, and quality practice, in the event one ends up on the ground is a good idea.

Oh, and of course making sure one's gun runs port up, port down, and upside down, as in having to shoot back over and behind your head.

Them revolvers I mentioned earlier, never had a problem with any of this...

 

[bratch]

sm,

I agree we need to be able to shoot from multiple positions and know our gear will run from those positions. Shooting from supine was interesting; I was using standard pressure 9mm and the concussion on my legs was easy to feel, very similar to shooting at contact distance from retention. Not something you'd want to experience for the first time fighting for your life.

I read the OP as saying going supine was the primary action. Faced with a threat drop to your back and prepare to stop the threat. If this is the case I see this as a bad strategy for just about everyone. Younger people loose their mobility and older people risk breaking bones and the difficulty getting up from being on the ground.

 

[Grey_Mana]

Ah, belly up. I had it backward in my mind, and was trying to imagine while you would drop to a crawling position.

Seems relevant to some home defense. If there are burglers in your house, and you're waiting for them to leave or come up the stairs, you might wait at the top of the stairs and plan to shoot if they turn a corner. If you have to wait a few minutes full of adrenaline, you might want/need to sit down (especially to avoid walking around and making noise). If you sit down, you're going to be kinda-shooting between your knees.

Or is trying to defend from the top of the stairs stupid? Shooting down seems biomechanically easier than shooting up, but maybe that's just me. Defending the top of the stairs seems start if they don't have guns, but lacks concealment & cover if they shoot back.

 

[mercop]

One of our basic drills. More than being knocked down, people fall down a lot. They cross their feet or move backwards and fall. People have a tendency to fall on their butt which results in a heck of a central nervous system disruption and lots of pain. Either that or they fall to their strong side hip. Here is a picture of the drill which is done with a holstered / concealed pistol. The shooter squats down we pull them back to the deck and the need to rock to their other side and draw and engage the threat. When doing this force of force with air soft they are taught to chamber a kick to the knee to hollow out their attacker.- George

 

[CWL]

Commonly taught in advanced handgun courses. I see it as more of a technique for outside since most assaults will be without warning so you may get hit or shoved onto your @ss.

Very stable base to shoot from, but also likely that you may have someone on top of you or kicking you, very high danger of shooting yourself while trying to draw & wrestle with a BG. I've spent as much time learning how to keep legs and feet away from muzzle as actually shooting while supine.

 

[YammyMonkey]

I would agree with sm & bratch in that we never know if/when we'll have to fight on our backs but I would NOT advocate it as a primary response for anything short of knocked down or already there (in bed, working under your car, etc.)

It is a valuable skill to practice but the loss of mobility makes it a very poor default response for an able bodied person already on their feet.

 

[Erik]

Agreed that it should not be a default, but given that the fight is what is and often we have less to say about it than we'd like to believe shooting from supine is a good practice to work into training.

 

[harrygunner]

I've taken classes where we do that. Not sure about attempting a Weaver.

The best thing I got from the exercise is knowing I can access my holstered weapon with either hand.

 

[mercop]

 

[sm]

Great photo.
So much comes to mind, in viewing it.
.

 

[cambeul41]

11 year old demonstrates supine shooting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2B2rKj4eZgo

 

[RyanM]

Isn't there an obscure long-range shooting technique where you lie on your back and hold the gun one-handed, stabilizing it against the side of your strong-side knee?

Seems like going supine could be practical, though only if mobility isn't normally an option, due to physical condition or layout of your house, etc.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I've done some shooting from this position. It can't hurt - you never know when you might be knocked down. It is pretty difficult to do on most ranges, but I had access to open country with a large hill for a backstop. Care must be taken to keep your feet down on the ground so as not to shoot yourself in one or both of them, and that your backstop is high enough, as the upward angle will make the bullet travel farther.

 

[Erik]

"Isn't there an obscure long-range shooting technique where you lie on your back and hold the gun one-handed, stabilizing it against the side of your strong-side knee?"

Yes.

 

[mercop]

Me thinks if you are shooting from your back it means you are down and the attacker is charging you. Using your gun is only part of the problem.- George

 

[JImbothefiveth]

I've seen similar defense used in martial arts and someone good at it is a pain to attack.

Okay, here's my take on it as a martial artist:

That is not a good position to be in. In a match that doesn't allow punching, with trained competitors, it still has both sides about equal. (and training in this takes a lot more time than training with your firearm) If the guy is bigger, it's worse. When punches are allowed, it's probably disadvantageous, even with trained competitors. For someone untrained in an actual fight, it would be terrible. The best advice I could offer is to keep the guy in front of your legs, once he's around those, you are in a much, much worse position, even when punches are not allowed, and in a fight with a gun, it's time to start praying while you fight.

It is a pain to attack someone who's good at it if you are not as good, though there have been tournament victories before where a bigger guy, who trains just enough to not get caught in various attacks, just pounds the other guy (who lies down) to unconciousness. If you are not so much better than the other guy, you will probably lose, unless you can shoot them.

Finally, if there is more than one attacker, the ground is NOT the place to be, though being able to kick them to keep them at bay (for a time) is better than them tackling you.

 

[mercop]

Here is a video of the drill from the Miami course in JAN that one of the students posted-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Vm4o0jW4w

 

[sm]

mercop,

That is one lesson I had beginning as a kid. We also did lessons with folks on crutches, using arm crutches, leg braces (Polio victims), wheelchairs (manual and power assist) , and Amigo's (and other power assist "carts").

One we did a lot of, was using the lift on a handicapped van.

Predators like easy prey, and one of the most vulnerable times is when a physically limited person is using a vehicle.

i.e. crutches, arm braces, wheel chair, Amigo, or lift, getting out of, and into a vehicle.

Yes, folks not physically limited did these lessons as well.

a. one never knows when they might be physically limited.
b. one learns a lot by assisting those physically limited and one adds tools to the tool box by "learning from a different perspective".

Only I could miss all the mats, being tumped out of wheelchair and Amigo, up on lift.
Nothing like getting some real "force" on force in lessons.


One ploy that is used, and it takes cycles, is the BG under a vehicle, and BG grabs both ankles and yanks.
The vehicle works to assist in getting the mark down. One can hit their head, break elbows, collar bone, etc.

The mark is down, and there is more than one BG, besides the one under the vehicle.

Parking lots are flat out dangerous!
Parking deck are death labyrinths!

Hence the suggestion one take lessons from a physically limited perspective, for another good reason, and that is if one associates and is out and about with someone physically limited.

In other words "living the world from their perspective". Whole folks take things for granted, they don't mean to, just the reality is, they live and see the world from a "whole" perspective.

By actually getting in a wheelchair for instance, and having to go through ADLs (activities of daily living) one can better assist those they do associate with limits.
It will add tools to the toolbox.

Like taking grand parent to the doctor, or grocery store, or little sister that broke her leg and is in crutches, or...

I do know what being tumped out of a wheelchair, and Amigo is like. You can get tangled up with these.

Those handicapped lifts may not seem that far off the ground, trust me , they are a lot higher than you realize, and that fall off one, is a hard one.

Supine: you never know , best to have an idea before you find out the hard way.

 

[RobMoore]

Its one of many non-standard positions that are good to practice from, in case the need ever arises (like practicing strong and weak hand only) but I don't know about it being a good one to get into on purpose. That just seems silly.

I can't count how many novices I've seen shooting the ground in front of them from anticipation/poor grip. I wouldn't want to put my body there, nearly guaranteeing I'd be hit by either direct or indirect fire.