Tannerite and 45-70

[reddog81]

Can I lower mass and keep speed the same....does not sound like it with the poster about the 17. We can make the assume that the mass of the bullet on the 17hmr is not going to change by much between 50 and 100 yards, what is the drop in FPS. What does a 17 bullet weigh...20 grains..

17 HMR looses about 500 FPS from the muzzle to 100 yard. 50 yards is about the limit for 2,000 FPS.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Perhaps I am not asking correctly.....let me try again....I do have issues with the written word.

That all said if this sounds snarky I don't intend it to be.

Power means nothing.....what is power. I want a formula, Xmass moving at Yspeed will set this stuff off. Can I lower mass and keep speed the same....does not sound like it with the poster about the 17. We can make the assume that the mass of the bullet on the 17hmr is not going to change by much between 50 and 100 yards, what is the drop in FPS. What does a 17 bullet weigh...20 grains.

I think there is no issue with 3006 at 100 yards....I have used this stuff very little, and really have little use for it....but that does not mean it does not interest me. I know I have used 3006 at 100 yards with it and had no issues. Now thinking that both bullets are moving at 2000-ish fps at the muzzle....you would think that mass has to have something to do with it. Is the 17 bleeding that much speed from 50 to 100 yards that it makes it not able to set it off....it is the only thing that adds up. What is the "average"....I know bullet weight, bla bla bla will make a difference, but ball park......average speed of the two bullets at 100 yards.

Looks like I have some research to do.

But don't use terms like "power" to define anything....unless you are going to define power first, like in a FPE type deal.

17hmr sheds velocity too fast to work well.

 

[Demi-human]

Power means nothing.....what is power. I want a formula, Xmass moving at Yspeed will set this stuff off.

It is commonly known and printed in the instructions that come with the factory made kind, that a fourty grain, twenty two caliber bullet traveling two thousand feet per second at impact will reliably set it off.

A bullet must move a shockwave through enough material to initiate the reaction. A smaller bullet is caught and slowed by the material. It does not produce a big enough shock wave and it squibs out from a lack of pressure. Or it does not disturb enough material to have that pressure against the bullet to cause friction to ignite it.
Yet, as stated, some are using fifteen grain pellets and Ram-Set charges to do it, albeit at shorter ranges.
A bigger bullet will work more reliably provided it is still moving at or above 2000 FPS, the speed of the shockwave at detonation.
There are some very interesting high speed videos of Tannerite being started. Things are not always as they seem...

 

[Swampman]

What I would like to see is one of these youtube idiots....yes I said IDIOTS.....that like to shoot nail gun cartridges in their 22's and use a 22 pellet for a projectile shoot some tannerite with it. here we have a VERY light projectile moving VERY fast....I saw one video that had chrono readings of 4000fps with alloy pellets....hitting it would take some time....but that would really be interesting.

Would an 8 grain projectile moving at 3000+fps set it off?

Maybe if they stood REALLY close to it when they took the shot...

 

[.455_Hunter]

Putting the prills in a blender and powdering them thoroughly before adding the Aluminum makes for a more intimate mixture. This makes for a much more impressive BOOM, than a loud “Whump”.

As an improvised explosives researcher, please DON'T DO THIS! You have made been something that is marginally safe in factory form into the unsafe domain of increased sensitivity and vulnerability to unintentional initiation.

 

[Demi-human]

As an improvised explosives researcher, please DON'T DO THIS! You have made been something that is marginally safe in factory form into the unsafe domain of increased sensitivity and vulnerability to unintentional initiation.

Nope.

Just making the nitrate smaller so the aluminum is able to mix better with it.

Ammonium nitrate is prilled at the factory to keep it from absorbing water vapor as quickly.
When the shot indicator company tells you to shake the mix for three minutes, it is to impact plate the powder on to the prills so there is not a pile of aluminum at the bottom. There is more aluminum powder than the surface area of the prills.
Making the nitrate a powder gives it more surface area to "absorb" the aluminum.
Since it is the same material, in the same ratio, it is no more sensitive than before. However upon detonation it is able to "burn" quicker and more completely.
It still needs an impact of an object moving about two thousand feet per second, with enough weight to produce a shockwave in the material.

I have already done this to nearly fifty pounds of hand made Tannerite.
I have one opened sixteen pound bag left, that needs dehumidification before size reduction, but honestly I ran out of things to blow up.
Anything can lose is luster.


(This however IS dangerous and I don't recommend doing it. Putting anything in between you and the charge can make it a bullet. The only thing you want coming back at you is the sound!)...

My favorite thing was to put straight cut Poplar logs on the Haha Wall and plop a small plastic baggie with only fifty grams of mix on the top.
The blast pushes the log down in the earth and splits it perfectly, then it bounces up and lays out in a perfect flower shape.
It took eight logs before I found a weak one...
That said it is a shot indicator and should not be used as a working explosive tool.


As far as sensitive goes, stay away from anything with magnesium and chlorates!


I like @Jessesky's idea of a small rimfire bag on a centerfire bag.(Bags don't leak as bad, by the way.)
If it worked out well, it could get shot indication from much farther away.

I am always leery of the fire making rimfire bags at a distance I can't get to quickly to snuff a blaze, though.

I can feel inspiration rising...

 

[Demi-human]

Conversely, if grinding it did make it more sensitive, a 45-70 would set it off.
It doesn't, but will spread it more and make sweeping it into a useable pile impossible.

 

[Bill460]

..... Putting anything in between you and the charge can make it a bullet. The only thing you want coming back at you is the sound!)....

This was some clown on You Tube who packed a bunch of it into an old riding lawn mower, then shot at it from close range. He managed to blow his leg off.



This idiot almost 86'd himself blowing up a refrigerator doing the same thing.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Yep thhe stuff is dangerous if you do stupid ****.

What i am trying to figure out.... is what makes the "speed" of the bullet hitting it versus the mass that causes it to go off. Trying to figure out the science of the physics of it.
Because energy expended is a relation of mass AND speed.

If fire (heat) wont ignite it, Heat is energy. I have sent an email to two of the companies that make the stuff and see what they say.

 

[d2wing]

Maybe the rate of compression has to exceed the rate of dispersion for it to work. It is not energy or mass but violence. The tannerite is a soft anvil and the bullets are a high speed hammer. It takes a certain velocity of the hammer to exceed the rate that the powder can yield. I have only ever used a .223.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Maybe the rate of compression has to exceed the rate of dispersion for it to work. It is not energy or mass but violence. The tannerite is a soft anvil and the bullets are a high speed hammer. It takes a certain velocity of the hammer to exceed the rate that the powder can yield. I have only ever used a .223.

That could be it. Compression, just like nuclear material, you can heat it up, even melt it, it won’t go off. You have to compress it till becomes critical for it to go bang. Even in fusion reactions it takes heat and pressure.

 

[Bill460]

That could be it. Compression, just like nuclear material, you can heat it up, even melt it, it won’t go off. You have to compress it till becomes critical for it to go bang. Even in fusion reactions it takes heat and pressure.

This is the best comparison. The key to making the first nuclear bomb, was getting all of the conventional explosive detonators to fire at exactly the same time. Otherwise it would have simply blown the fissionable material all over, instead of compressing it to achieve critical mass.

That is what has to happen to Tannerite, but to a much lesser degree. You have to have enough velocity to initiate this compression right at the tip of the bullet itself, in order to get the whole thing going. Not enough velocity, and the bullet will simply push the ignitable Tannerite out of it's way, instead of compressing it.

 

[fpgt72]

That could be it. Compression, just like nuclear material, you can heat it up, even melt it, it won’t go off. You have to compress it till becomes critical for it to go bang. Even in fusion reactions it takes heat and pressure.

This is what I am thinking....the very rapid compression of the material....and like the other poster said the supersonic shock wave could play a big part. The bullet and the shock wave is going to try to move the material around VERY fast....if it just can't do it that might be what makes it go bang.

I too sent off an email to just the Tannerite company....have yet to get an answer back however......but I do think it is compression.....very very fast compression.

It would be cool to see if someone would put something like a Phantom to film it, but I bet you would still have to have a very spendy bit of kit very close to the boom to do that. But it could capture the kaboom. Perhaps a note to someone like smarter every day and he would do it.....he has the camera, as well as the slow motion guys.