Tazers Flashbangs, and JBTs, what ever happened to old fashioned arrest??

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
5,687
Location
Delaware home of tax free shopping
After last months two botched swat raids on persons of interest in bank robberies (wrong folks twice had their doors kicked down at 3:00 am) we now have this: Remember the Pagan here was not observed committing any crime and was in fact a decorated ex marine.:cuss:


Slain Pagan was targeted in drug probe
18-month investigation results in 12 arrests
By LEE WILLIAMS, The News Journal

Posted Friday, November 10, 2006

Derek J. Hale on a boat in Virginia with his wife, Elaine, and their children. Hale served two combat tours as a Marine in Iraq.

Hale family photo
The 25-year-old member of the Pagans Motorcycle Club shot to death by Wilmington police on the steps of a row house was a decorated U.S. Marine who survived two combat tours in Iraq.

Derek J. Hale, a probationary member of the club, was shot three times in the chest Monday afternoon by an officer using a department-issued .40-caliber handgun. He was killed after receiving multiple shocks from electronic Tasers, which caused him to "speak gibberish," witnesses said. Police said they found a can of pepper spray and a switchblade knife in Hale's pockets after the shooting.

Police confronted him two days after serving a search warrant on the home's owner, another new member of the Pagans.

Late Thursday, the Delaware State Police identified Hale as a "person of interest" in an 18-month investigation that resulted in the arrests of 12 suspects for felony drug and weapons offenses, saying he was suspected of drug and weapons offenses -- something his family strongly disputes.

Hale lived in Manassas, Va., with his wife, Elaine Hale. The couple had three young children from previous relationships, and planned to have children of their own.

She said Derek was a member of the Pagans but did not discuss "club business." He told her he was visiting Wilmington. "Those who I met and talked with were decent people, like my husband. Derek was a good man."

Virginia police notified Elaine Hale of her husband's death Wednesday, then conducted a search of her home.

"There must have been nine cop cars," said Trina Schaetz, a family friend who was at the house Wednesday. "They took his Pagan T-shirts, patches, coats, motorcycle books and videos. She [Elaine] was just shocked. They made us stand out on the curb."

On Thursday, Elaine Hale retained Wilmington attorney Thomas S. Neuberger to monitor the investigation into her husband's death.

"After two full tours in Iraq, where he was protecting all of us, to die on the Wilmington streets -- I can think of no greater tragedy for small children and a newlywed than to lose a father and a husband," Neuberger said. "And it's even worse that it's done at the hands of trained police officials."

Neuberger said he will file suit if he is not allowed access to the investigative reports of the shooting.

"The leadership of the Delaware State Police is interested in nothing but politics, and their standards of professionalism have plummeted," Neuberger said.

Hale's shooting and the search warrant that preceded it are part of a statewide crackdown that Pagans said had targeted the club.

Several Pagans told The News Journal of other police raids, during which property was seized and members were beaten by police. State Police said 12 people, including the owner of the Hilltop house, have been charged as part of the sweeping investigation. Other Pagans said they have had their motorcycles and club clothing seized, but no charges had been filed.

Wilmington defense attorney Joe Hurley is representing one of the Pagans arrested this week.

"I suspect there's a wiretap -- that's my gut," Hurley said Thursday. "If they don't have criminal charges, they've got conversations. Logically, the rules for seizure are the same as arrest. Police have to have probable cause to believe the property was used in the commission of felonies."

According to the written statement by state police, Hale was seen at the house and investigators observed Hale moving items from inside the residence to a vehicle and "had reason to believe he was preparing to flee."

Police sought to arrest him outside the home, police said. "It was during the attempt to take Hale into custody outside of the residence that a confrontation ensued, and Hale was fatally shot."

Other Pagans were swept up in the raids and later released.

In one instance, Pagan Jim Jollie was visiting a friend's home outside Newark on Saturday when a state police SWAT team threw a flash-bang grenade into the home.

Jollie, a Vietnam veteran, was in a hallway when the stun grenade exploded.

"There was this 'pop,' and then police in black stormed in and told me to put up my hands," he said. "I did."

Jollie said he was then struck on the back of the head by a nightstick, forced to the ground and kicked in the head, ribs and leg.

"They spit on me and cussed me," he said. "There were children in the home."

Wednesday afternoon, Jollie's head and legs were still swollen, and he had difficulty breathing because of two broken ribs. All of his injuries were on the left side of his body.

Handcuffed in the hallway while one officer stood on his neck, Jollie was taken to a back bedroom after police discovered he was wearing his colors with club insignias underneath a denim coat.

"They told me they were gonna cut them off me," he said. "And one guy had out his knife."

Police let him go hours later; however, they confiscated his colors and his 2005 Harley-Davidson. Jollie still doesn't know why his property was seized.

"They said the attorney general wanted it," he said. "They said he'd been after it."

In response to Jollie's allegations, Delaware State Police Superintendent Col. Thomas F. MacLeish announced Thursday that an administrative investigation has been initiated by the Delaware State Police Office of Professional Responsibility.

"The DSP takes any allegation from a citizen very seriously and will conduct a thorough, comprehensive and fair investigation," MacLeish said in a written statement. "Additionally, investigators will follow DSP internal administrative procedures pertaining to violations of state police rules and regulations."

Jollie, a Marine Corps veteran, was taken to the V.A. Hospital for his injuries.

"When the doc saw blood trickling out of my ear, they took me to Christiana," he said.

When he returned home, he learned police had seized his ice cream truck.

"I'd just used it at the [charity] toy run Saturday," he said. "It's my livelihood. We were selling breakfast sandwiches out of it."

He was never charged with a crime.

Jollie said he met Hale several months before he was shot by Wilmington police.

“He was a good kid, very respectful. He didn’t drink or use drugs,” Jollie said. “He didn’t even smoke cigarettes.”

While he was serving his tours in Iraq, Hale and wife Elaine had kept in touch via e-mail.

“He wasn’t allowed to say much, where he was at or what he was doing,” Elaine said in an interview Thursday. “He called whenever he could. He was down a lot. He missed me and wanted to come home.”

They were married on a beach in North Carolina on Oct. 22 of last year, after Derek finished his second combat tour and was honorably discharged.

“He really loved being a Marine,” Elaine said. “He told me he would serve for a lifetime if they needed him, but he really felt that the divorce rate in the Marines was too high, so he got out. He didn’t want anything to happen to our marriage.”

Contact investigative reporter Lee Williams at 324-2362 or [email protected].
Staff reporter Sean O'Sullivan contributed to this story. Contact Terri Sanginiti at 324-2771 or [email protected].

IF YOU GO

What: A benefit for Derek J. Hale's family


When: Noon, Nov. 18


Where: The Bar, Du Pont Highway (U.S. 13) and Hazeldell Avenue
 
A little Googling turned up some interesting stuff.
______________

http://www.midstateliving.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061109/NEWS/611090363/1006/NEWS

"Officers found guns, cocaine and dynamite during a search Saturday of a Hilltop home, where two days later a man was shot to death by Wilmington police.

Authorities on Wednesday identified the shooting victim as Derek Justin Hale, 25, of Manassas, Va. Police reported that he had no arrest record in Delaware."
______________

The following quote is from a post made on the above page in response to the article. Whether the poster is in fact who he says he is - I dunno.

"Posted by: tsere- Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:43 am
He was full of crap and a compulsive liar. He did not serve in the Special Forces (or Forced Recon) in the Marine Corps. He worked in aviation as a mechanic. He did a tour of less than three months in Iraq and though he was discharged honerably he was not invited to re-enlist. It was a matter of time before they would have tossed him out.

He was not the father of those kids mentioned, but the step father. He desserted is biological daughter in Havelock, North Carolina (MCAS Cherry Point). He signed over all rights to the child to avoid child support of which he was more than 1500 dollars in arrears.

He was not "a Marine", but used and abused the system while in the service thereof. Pagan or not this "kid" with the morality of a gnat was a low life. Unless his daughter asks, she will never here his name spoken.

How do I know these things you ask? I am a retired Marine Gunny with 20 years service.....and oh yeah....I was the scum bags father-in-law.

ROT IN HELL DERRICK!!!"
 
I'd be careful believing what you read about victems of police shootings in the papers. A neighbor of mine who is a cop had to fire on someone while they were doing off-duty work. Guy was a scumbag crack addict with a long arrest record. The papers made him out to be a "budding musician" and slightly misguided nice guy. :rolleyes:
 
Here is the rest of the story you posted:
The point is wheter he was armed, a threat, or involved in any of the drug dealing. Was he aarmed? he had a pocket knife/switch blade and a container of pepper spray. was he a threat to the police? Not according to several eye witnesses, police are not really sure are they??

BTW the stuff about him being a scum bag is an annonymous internet post by some unknown individual.

Was he committing a crime???? Apparently not since the police have yet to come up with a crime he committed other thqan standing on the sidewalk and not going down when they tazzed him twice.


Authorities on Wednesday identified the shooting victim as Derek Justin Hale, 25, of Manassas, Va. Police reported that he had no arrest record in Delaware.

Hale, a member of the Pagans Motorcycle Club, was shot three times in the chest from a department-issued .40-caliber handgun after receiving two shocks from electronic Tasers, which caused him to "speak gibberish," witnesses said.

Two children -- ages 4 and 11 -- were sitting on the steps of the house, about three feet away, when gunfire erupted.

Reports on whether Hale was armed or threatened police have evolved.

Master Sgt. Steven Elliott, Wilmington police spokesman, said Tuesday that "there were two items there that were considered weapons, but I haven't been able to confirm whether they were law enforcement or belonged to the suspect."

Asked Tuesday if Hale -- whose hands police said were in his pockets -- ever threatened the officers, Elliott said: "In a sense, when he did not comply with their commands."

Elliott said Wednesday a switch-blade knife and "suspected pepper spray derivative" were found in Hale's front pants pockets.

Elliott would not say whether charges were pending against Hale or why officers tried to arrest him.

"I would respectfully defer to the state police," he said.

State Police Superintendent Col. Thomas MacLeish did not return numerous calls or e-mails seeking comments for this article.

The search and subsequent shooting are part of a statewide crackdown Pagans say is targeting the club. Delaware State Police would not comment.

Public records filed with the court Wednesday show the reasons for the search warrant that preceded Hale's death.

According to court documents, state police "received information" that Raul Morales and wife Courtney Morales were about to "conduct a drug deal with a black male in the parking lot of the Governors Square Shopping Center."

Raul Morales owns the Hilltop home where Hale was killed.

State police detained the couple after the drug deal, and found a small amount of cocaine in their possession. The state police SWAT team raided the home hours later, and recovered 381 grams of cocaine, four pistols, ammunition and five and a half sticks of dynamite. Raul Morales remains in jail.

The Pagans Motorcycle Club is classified by police as an outlaw motorcycle gang with a reputation for violence.
 
The Pagans Motorcycle Club is classified by police as an outlaw motorcycle gang with a reputation for violence.
There's the key to this whole thing.

Once the police classify some group you belong to as a "criminal gang" or a "terrorist organization" you have no more legal rights.


Its only a matter of time before "TheHighRoad.org", "JPFO" or "GOA" (or even the NRA) get classified as "criminal" or "terrorist" in nature. All it will take is for someone with ANY rank in one of those organizations to get arrested for a violent crime or be under investigation as a "terrorist".


I don't know anything about the Pagans, or this particular dead Marine, but I do know that we're living in "interesting times" that are just going to get more "interesting" :(
 
To get back to the subject line at hand -- I have grown concerned over the last five years or so by the number of police organizations that have gone completely overboard in their "shock and awe"-style responses to situations that call for, as MB termed it, "old-fashioned arrest". One of the reality shows last night captured it beautifully -- it was a show following Detroit's SRT, and one episode involved their response to an unknown individual who, after firing one round from a .32 caliber pistol in the general direction of a house, retreated to a nearby vacant house which was then surrounded by patrol officers upon their arrival. This guy and his .32 capgun were then treated to the following parade:

- An APC full of SRT guys -- entry team, snipers, the whole works
- Two Suburbans full of more armed-to-the-teeth SRT guys
- Another forty-eleven patrol squads
- The SRT Team Leader, in his Darth Vader Signature Model Crown Vic

I was laughing so hard I almost wet myself. I mean, let's get a little perspective here -- our military used less firepower to retake Afghanistan from the Taliban! I understand the concepts of superior force and strategic deployment, but there's a point at which you have to wonder what they're trying to accomplish! These guys were talking like they had some sort of Rambo/Ninja/Superhero-Gone-Bad character cornered. It was a drunken retard with a .32, for God's sake!

Please don't get the wrong impression -- I'm a long-time volunteer for my local PD, which is arguably the best-equipped and most professional police organization in the state, and you'll find no bigger supporter of law enforcement and the difficult role they step up to handle every day. I believe that in some corners of the world we live in, some of these folks have gotten waaaaayyyy carried away with themselves, the weaponry, and their fears.

Thoughts?
 
Please don't get the wrong impression -- I'm a long-time volunteer for my local PD, which is arguably the best-equipped and most professional police organization in the state, and you'll find no bigger supporter of law enforcement and the difficult role they step up to handle every day. I believe that in some corners of the world we live in, some of these folks have gotten waaaaayyyy carried away with themselves, the weaponry, and their fears.

Thoughts?
I think for all your fun poking your probably wouldn't be rushing in the house after 'ol armed and shooting drunkie, nor would any rational person.
 
I think for all your fun poking your probably wouldn't be rushing in the house after 'ol armed and shooting drunkie, nor would any rational person.

well that happens to be a part of policing. law enforcement officers know the potential dangers of their jobs, and given the growing number of over-reactionary, frequently loosely-investigated and mishandled swat-type operations occurring in just about every locale, i think specialized has a very valid point.
 
Soybomb: said:
I think for all your fun poking your probably wouldn't be rushing in the house after 'ol armed and shooting drunkie, nor would any rational person.
Well, no kidding. You're absolutely right, no rational person would rush in after a man with a gun; thanks for pointing out the obvious. I do know how to clear a house, though, and I do know that until fairly recently it was SOP to call in a negotiator with a bullhorn or a bag phone (remember, this is a vacant house, and not that of the subject), surround the house with good ol' ordinary police officers, and talk to and/or wait out the guy until he sobered up or made a move. The point of the post was to underscore the level of overkill that is routinely being applied to such situations today, a point that was lost in your oversimplification.

Another case in point might be the changes in SOP in the aftermath of the Columbine attack. More departments are opting for tactics that have small teams of first-response resources going in after active shooters as soon as possible, rather than the surround-them-with-armageddon-and-wait-til-they-run-out-of-ammo approach. In the case I described, it can reasonably be expected that this was no longer an active shooter, given his presence in a vacant house and the absence of any indication of further gunfire.

Which brings me back to the original post in this thread -- how does a guy with a knife and some mace in his pocket end up with three new .40 cal. navels in his chest? It must have been some weapons-grade gibberish he was spewing to warrant that. If a guy with no visible weapons who's talking nonsense and in between repeated zaps with a Taser is somehow an imminent deadly threat, I'd love to hear more details. Didn't raise his hands? Maybe. I'm here to tell you from experience, though, you ain't gonna be able to raise anything if you're riding the wires of a Taser, except possibly your voice, and even that would be involuntarily.
 
Once the police classify some group you belong to as a "criminal gang" or a "terrorist organization" you have no more legal rights.

Of course it could be that the police classified them correctly.

Who cares what the police have classified the Pagans as? Was the man killed while resisting arrest? If so, what was he bein garrested for? What was the PC? If there are no good answers to these questions, I hope that PD and every officer involved twist slowly in front of a Grand Jury.
 
I've never been Tazed. Would a guy be capable of using a weapon while being Tazed?

Biker
 
First-hand test of a Taser INt'l M26

Special Thanks to Blackwater OPS.

Disclaimer
First, I want to explain why I put this in tactics and training. It is not a firearm, so it does not belong in most of the other categories, and many people here may have used or considered using the Taser in their own tactics and training. Don't try this one at home kids.

Background
So, I have maintained for some time that electric stun devices are NOT viable for any situation period. This, obviously, has met with some disagreement, but I mention it here only to fully disclose that I started with a bias against the Taser. A good friend of mine who owns a Taser insisted that it did work, and despite owning several firearms it was his primary HD weapon. Today, there was a burglary in the home next to his, which spurred an argument between us about the effectiveness of said device. In the end I challenged him to test the Taser on me. He was reluctant, but I had a safe area in my yard to do it, and my neighbor is a part-time firefighter and had a fancy defib kit, so I convinced him it was probably safer than driving in LA traffic.

The Set Up
We agreed that I would try to remove one of the prongs in a 5 second period after the device was fired, if I failed to do so, or was knocked to the ground, the Taser was effective. If I was successful then it was not. I stood five feet away and he aimed the Taser at my chest using the included laser "sight"(I'm not a fan of those either). I, a 225lb male, was wearing a Heavy cotton t-shirt, workout shorts, flip-flops, and shooting glasses. Temp was about 70(F) and 78%H for the data junkies.

What DID Happen
The Taser fired two prongs, attached to plastic coated copper wire. The prongs and the metal base they are attached to made two neat holes in my shirt, which they went all the way through. It would be interesting to see some penetration tests on these, but they did very well here. (Side note: One thing I was NOT aware of was that the "prongs" are straightened out fish hooks. That's not normally something you want jabbed a 1/4 inch into your flesh)

The prongs did fully penetrate my skin and into the fat under it. I felt something like what the stun gun does, (these have never impaired my movement) only over most of my body. My muscles contracted with shocks to some degree, but did not "lock up". I was, in about 2.5 seconds able to remove one prong and end the shocks. I feel I could have done this quicker, however the rather unique feeling the Taser delivers surprised me at first, and my arm did seem to spasm right as I was trying to use it. I got very pissed off. (Supposedly I yelled "like a wild animal" at that point) There was a small amount of blood when the fish hook thing was removed, but nothing serious.

What did NOT Happen.
I did not fall to the ground. I was not unable to move. I did not pass out.

Closing Comments
The main effectiveness of these devices seems to be psychological. They do not, in fact, physically prevent a person from doing violence. In addition they have been know to be lethal under some circumstances, so one could not be entirely safe using one unless deadly force was also authorized (or legal). Another factor is training, hopefully none of us would buy a gun and ammo and, without ever taking it to the range to become proficient, carry it for self defense. At $20 per cartridge, how many of these will be fired for practice at a target? At the end of the day, self defense is not something that can be mastered with the pistol alone; some hand to hand training is also required for those situations not requiring deadly force. If you refuse to do this, recognize there are no "magic bullet" alternatives, you will most likely be forced to use deadly force to prevent the loss of your weapon in a situation that would not otherwise result in loss of life. Learn how to fight if you want to take on the responsibility of gun ownership, or lock all your guns in the safe when you are not at the range.
 
I guess if you resist arrest with a knife in your pocket you should be shot?

Nothing else in this thread even matters, does it?
 
Biker: said:
I've never been Tazed. Would a guy be capable of using a weapon while being Tazed?
Not unless you fire it by clenching your teeth or your butt cheeks.

Seriously, I've heard people say that it's possible to function under that kind of condition, but haven't been able to find anything supporting that other than responses that occurred between zaps. I think people are confusing it with known cases of perpetrators who are on drugs overriding or ignoring their pain thresholds to effectively fight against pepper spray, mace, baton strikes, gunshots, joint locks, etc. That's a different story, because while drug-induced chemical changes in the body can cause such reactions, one cannot mentally override one's internal electrical (neurological) system.
 
Malum...

Sure it matters. I'm just unsure at this time about the official police story.
Haven't made up muh miiiind. Everything I've read about Tazers - including from cops - points toward the fact that they render a man helpless so I thought that I'd ask for anectdotal examples.

Biker
 
The sad part is that because there is so much LE dishonesty about these incidents, that it is no longer possible to give them the benefit of the doubt, even though it is a certainty that the vast majority of times force is used (including deadly force), it is completely justified.
 
I think for all your fun poking your probably wouldn't be rushing in the house after 'ol armed and shooting drunkie, nor would any rational person.

well that happens to be a part of policing.

Surely you aren't advocating that a tactic a idiotic 'rushing in after' the shooter is 'part of policing'. Nowhere in the academy was I taught that it was my job to die by acting on poorly planned and incompetently executed responses to a threat. As a matter of fact, they spent quite a lot of time teaching me how to stay alive by entering and clearing a building in a tactically sound manner and exposing myself to as little danger as possible while undertaking an inherently dangerous task, namely, following a man with a gun into a dark building after he has had time to plan his own response to an armed incursion.

As with most of the anecdotes shared here, the level of knowledge of the responding officers on the scene, not of the viewer comfortably at home, is of interest. Were they responding to a 'shots fired' call with no other details, or were they privvy to the fact that the shooter was a 'drunken retard' carrying only one pistol chambered in what is generally accepted as a weak cartridge? If for some reason they were not properly appraised of all of these relevant details, and considering that they were in Detroit, I don't blame them for being reluctant to make the front page of the next day's paper by getting shot.

What was the ultimate outcome of this display of force?

As regards the TASER, I can only comment on my personal experiences, but when I got tased, the top dart went in over my right shoulderblade, and the bottom dart hit over my right kidney, giving a spread of at least a foot and a half. Predictably, I found myself completely unable to take conscious physical action for the 5 second ride. There are a select few people that the TASER doesn't affect as much as others, but that is true of ANY weapon applied against man, either lethal or non-lethal. I have no doubt as to its effectiveness on enough of the population to make it a worthy addition to the police arsenal. After all, how can the bleeding-heart types complain when we are introducing another element to the use of force continuum that pushes lethal force further down? ;)

-Teuf
 
The M26 and X26 differ quite a bit in their effectiveness, from what I understand (the X26 being the newer, more compact and more advanced varient). This is due to the "shaped pulse" that the X26 uses, which incapacitates more effectively with less energy than the M26 (theres no friggin Z in TASER, by the way :rolleyes: :D ). I've seen those things work first hand...if you can move while being zapped with an X26, I'm impressed. I'm not discrediting your story or anything, and tasers have never been 100% effective on all people, but the latest technology would very possibly bring you down :)

Info sourced from here: http://www.taser.com/documents/x26software-v15-indepth.pdf

At least I'd like to think so after watching this...

http://ebaumsworld.com/2006/01/likestaze.html

Don't get me wrong, I don't condone nailing someone six times with a taser, but look at how fast that guy went down...WITHOUT moving, or attempting to break his fall. If he was able to move, I think that he would have...
 
Taser, Tazer, what the heck. Certain words I've always had problems with. For example, as a kid, I was one word away from winning a spelling bee and I blew it. When I got home, Daddy Biker asked me which word I misspelled and I replied "Posse".
Daddy Biker then bellowed "No wonder you can't spell it, you don't even know how to pronounce it!".

Biker:cool:
 
As with most of the anecdotes shared here, the level of knowledge of the responding officers on the scene, not of the viewer comfortably at home, is of interest. Were they responding to a 'shots fired' call with no other details, or were they privvy to the fact that the shooter was a 'drunken retard' carrying only one pistol chambered in what is generally accepted as a weak cartridge? If for some reason they were not properly appraised of all of these relevant details, and considering that they were in Detroit, I don't blame them for being reluctant to make the front page of the next day's paper by getting shot.

when i made my comment in regard to policing, the point was that the job has inherent dangers attached to it. i was not suggesting that officers are obliged to needlessly put themselves in harm's way.

the emboldened section is the crux of my point, and a topic of conversation that has been previously discussed here. mission-appropriate preparedness is not only essential, but the lack thereof(especially in regard to the 'investigations' that precede alot of these operations) is no excuse for iron-fisted tactics.

many on this site regularly make mention of the overzealousness and ego woven into these special response units in PDs. when you give individuals, position, special authority, neat weapons, and lots of training, unless there are stringently set limits to their activities, and tremendous oversight, bad things will happen. i agree with those ideas.
 
"...after failed attempts...to stun...with a Taser..." - see the article below.

Question: Are switchblades legal in Delaware? How about dynamite in a residential neighborhood?

Re: "BTW the stuff about him being a scum bag is an annonymous internet post by some unknown individual."

I guess you skipped over the part of my post where I said "Whether the poster is in fact who he says he is - I dunno."

John
_________________________________________________________
www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061108/NEWS/61108057

"Derek Justin Hale had a 4-inch switchblade knife and a 3 oz. canister of suspected pepper spray in his pockets when he was killed, as well as miscellaneous papers and identification, spokesman Master Sgt. Steven Elliott said.

Hale was the target of an undercover drug investigation when state and city vice officers closed in on him Monday outside a home in the 1400 block of W. Sixth St. An officer shot Hale three times after failed attempts by other officers to stun Hale with a Taser -- a device that fires electrical currents along metal probes to immobilize people."
 
Biker, I was only kiddin man ;) You weren't the only one that spelled it with a Z, either...I just like bustin people's chops. No big deal. :D
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top