The 300 Savage for Polar Bear.

[saturno_v]

Guides' advice is intended for the guy who might not be really able to do proper shot placement. Six inches or so in the wrong direction might be okay with a .338, maybe. With a .300 Savage, life might become exciting.

Six inches POI off (even much, much less) is not going to make one iota of difference between a 30-06 and a 458....even less on an enraged wounded bear...


Look at the wound channel diameter between a 30-06 and 375 striking at the same velocity (assuming same bullet shape and contruction)....we are not talking about inches of difference.....

The only situation I can imagine on a big bear (again , assuming proper loads) where, for example, the use of a 375 vs a 30-06 may remotely be the only differentiating factor is extremely bad shooting angles where the penetration edge of the 375 would get you where you want to get....however that would be a bad shot that you should not get, regardless of the caliber.

A super magnum high BC cartridge (like a 338 RUM or 338-378 Wby....definitely not a 375 H&H or a 458) obviously is the only way to go if you want to engage in extreme long range bear hunting....which is unethical anyway and you should not do it IMHO.

You cannot take this 1016 yards black bear shot (375 Allen Magnum),with a 30-06 (or a 375 for that matter) ...IMHO nobody should, no matter the caliber...but, again, that's my opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daDk...03696CBA&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=18

 

[H&Hhunter]

The only situation I can imagine on a big bear (again , assuming proper loads) where, for example, the use of a 375 vs a 30-06 may remotely be the only differentiating factor is extremely bad shooting angles where the penetration edge of the 375 would get you where you want to get....however that would be a bad shot that you should not get, regardless of the caliber.

I have to strongly disagree here. What is a bad angle for an 06 isn't the case for medium or large bore firing a heavy for caliber round. Not to mention the bone crushing ability of a heavier caliber rifle. There is a world of difference in the capability of serious medium bore such as a .375H&H and a light rifle like a .30-06 when it comes to large dangerous animals.

Example

I have no problem taking an up the rear shot on a fleeing buffalo after it's been shot and is running off which they almost always do and I fully expect a well made 300 grain bullet from a .375 to crush the hip joint and still make it to the vitals. The same goes for a big bear.

You simply can't think you are going to get the same kind of performance from a light round. If you do you're a very foolish person. The bigger bores give you more options and a larger safety margin on DG no two ways about it.

I am NOT talking about placing a first shot poorly here I am talking about being able to reach the vitals after crushing heavy bone from any conceivable shot angle. That is what I look for in a suitable rifle for hunting something that can kill you back.

Phil Shoemaker made the .30-06 comment in regards to a client rifle. And at the same time he carries a smattering of rifles primarily a .458 WM a .375 Ruger he's even carried a .505 Gibbs at one time for his back up rifle.

I don't buy this good enough for the client but not for me the guide logic. I've had guides blow shots at close range on PO'ed dangerous game. I want the ability to take care of myself in any situation that might arise. Especially when it comes to stopping a critter. I think it's crazy to have to depend on another man to clean up your dirty work or any number of other situations which you might not have even started but are called upon to finish. depending on a guide to protect you is much like depending on calling 911 for your personal protection. NO THANKS!

 

[earplug]

I feel better knowing that my 300 Savage 99 will take out Polar Bears and Zombi's if they stroll down the street.
Only problem is 150 grain for Zombi's and 180 grain for Polar bears, or is it the other way around.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Zombies require quicker expansion and explosive fragmentation.

Polar Zombie Bears however are a different story all together.

 

[saturno_v]

H&H

I agree with what you said up to a point.

A Cape Buffalo is, I think, a tougher animal to penetrate compared even to a large bear.

I would not call a 30-06 (especially with heavy for caliber bullets) a "light" rifle.

With bullet weights from 200 gr and up in full spec loads, the 30-06 penetrate like there is no tomorrow.

Large bears had both their shoulder busted by 220 gr. 30 cal pills shot from an 06...if you go on the midwayusa website you can read several reviews of heavy bullet performance on bears and other large animals shot with a 30-06.

A 375 H&H is a much more capable cartridge than a 30-06, obviously, but it was designed with much larger and tougher animals in mind than even a grizzly bear.

A study about rifle perfomance for big bear defence commissioned by the US Forest Service which I already posted a while ago (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=485872&highlight=forest) found the 30-06 just behind the "big boys" (458, 375, 338) in effectiveness over a selection of 33 cartridges (including the .300 Magnums).

The best 375 load tested (300 gr. SP) penetrated 16.8 inch in the test medium (intended to reproduce a bear) with an expansion ratio of 4.0, the best performing 30-06 load (220 gr. SP) penetrated 17.7 inches in the test medium with an expansion ratio of 3.6...even the light 180 gr. penetrated 13.2 inches with an expansion ratio of 4.4

That is close perfomance in my book....to put it in another way, a 30-06 is a much more capable cartridge than a 30-30, however they both kill deer very dead.....a moose, instead, it's a different story, in that case the 30 WCF would likely run out of steam before getting the job done.

 

[Afy]

What about a .45-70 or .45-110?

 

[Art Eatman]

'Scuse me. I thought this thread was supposed to be about the .300 Savage. Compare the performance of it or of your favorite whatzit against the performance of what is apparently a typical Alaskan guide's advice.

Guides give advice from years of experiences. I don't know about y'all, but I've never hunted polar bears. Maybe an Inuit with a .300 Savage is over-gunned. Odds are, he's got better control over his adrenalin in that situation, not to mention superior hunting skills. It's different for a cheechako. I figure that when I'm on somebody else's turf, playing in their game, I'm a lot better off if I take a big dose of shut-up and do some listening.

 

[saturno_v]

he's got better control over his adrenalin in that situation, not to mention superior hunting skills.

That is exactly the point...if you have poor control of your adrenaline level or poor hunting skills a more powerful caliber does not compensate for that...that is dangerous thinking in my opinion.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I would not call a 30-06 (especially with heavy for caliber bullets) a "light" rifle.

I've killed a pile of game with an 06 and I have no reservations about them.

The term "Light" rifle I used was in the classic African definition of anything up to a .375 bore is a light rifle, mediums are .375 up to anything short of a .458 diameter and heavies start from there.

I've spent some time up on the polar ice and the guys stationed in the camps used 06's (03's) for polar bear problems. If I was ever to hit the loto and be able to afford to sport hunt a polar I see no reason not to use my stainless .375H&H. But being the victim of at least4,000 generations of white man genetics as far as I can tell. (No hint of any sort of pigmentation in my skin) I'll never get to hunt one on my own on a native license. So I doubt that I'll ever get to shoot a polar bear unless it's self defense. But I've sure enough seen them in the wild on several occasions and that was pretty darn cool in itself!

 

[geologist]

I have worked in the arctic, both grizzly and polar bear habitat. We used to keep .303's and 30-06's in our tents. Now that I can afford it, I keep a .375 H&H in my tent. This is not for hunting but rather for defense.

The Inuit do indeed hunt polar bears with small rifle calbers but they have a lifetime of experience hunting this game. They can see caribou on the tundra long before ANY of the southerners do. I would never assume that I could do what they do on the land.

 

[Art Eatman]

saturno v, I imagine the guide's point of view is that a .338 would do better at STOPPING an irate, wounded bear much better than a .300 Savage could.

It's not necessarily the idea that the first shot with a bad hit would be more effective from a .338.

 

[saturno_v]

saturno v, I imagine the guide's point of view is that a .338 would do better at STOPPING an irate, wounded bear much better than a .300 Savage could.

It's not necessarily the idea that the first shot with a bad hit would be more effective from a .338.

Art

Again I do not agree with the concept.

I don't know the 300 Savage and probably it is too light for big bears.

To stop an irate wounded brownie you need a CNS shot and a 30-06 (I stress again, with the right loads) can deliver that very comfortably.

If you cannot deliver that particular shot (spine/neck or brain) doesn't matter what caliber you carry.

Many people think that a bigger caliber is substitute for errors...it is not.

On bigger thick skinned animals (read African) that a grizzly the 30-06 may indeed be too light and a 375 will give you a margin of safety.

A 375 will indeed give you a margin of error on a grizzly compared to, let's say, a 30-30...the 30 WCF may well fail to penetrate adequately depending on angle, distance, etc...

On a grizzly, the right 30-06 loads will penetrate sufficiently from a correct shooting position/distance.

To make another example, at 100 yards or less on a whitetail a 30-06 will not give you an extra margin of safety compared to a 30 WCF....the 30-30 has sufficient power at that distance to do anything a 30-06 (or even one of the .300 Magnums for that matter) can do on a deer (likely pass-through for both).....at 150-200 yards on a big elk or moose it's a different story....the -06 does give you an extra margin.

The guide should advice clients to bring the rifle they can shoot more comfortable and be proficient with....of course proposing a minimum entry level, for example, to a 30-06 class cartridge for big bruins.

Sorry for veering off track on the 300 Savage...

 

[saturno_v]

Art

In my opinion, in some particular situations it is more the platform than the cartridge.

If I have to go in the bush after a wounded bear or lion I rather have my pump action 30-06 with extended magazine (I have 10 and 12 rounders), a lever action 45-70 or my pump shotgun stuffed with Brenneke Black Magic slugs rather than a slow, less manoeuvrable (for me) bolt action 375 or 458.

And if I could trust 110% a semi-auto rifle, my Remington 740 in 30-06 (extended magazine) would be even better....

I don't think a brownie or a big cat would appreciate this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnH19Tr0r1Q

 

[Art Eatman]

Hey, all I'm saying is that the .338 is a guide's idea, not mine. I'm just trying to figure out the why of his reasoning. While I've never been involved in any guided hunt, from what I have read they tend to think in terms of worst case scenarios. But, they're paid to think that way, I guess, unless they get to know the client.

 

[caribou]

If your "Hunting" Polar Bears, then .300 Savage is "Enough Gun" , heck , you cant get "Too big" when dealing with Bears.
What you can do is "MISS"and thats when it gets interesting, no matter the caliber.
Stopping a Bear involves incapitating them with properly placed shot, no matter the caliber.

If your looking for a "defensive" gun,close range and quick, here in Arctic Alaska, Bear Country, land and ice, hands down, NOTHING beats a 12 Gauge Magnum Slug round. 6 in the tube and one in the pipe in a fairly light weapon, my wife takes one when she picks berrys, as a anti-Bear device, but with a quick change of ammo, she can hunt down most anything she happens across, as well.

I keep a loaded H&K 91 hanging in my tent just for Bears. Its there all summer........

One old word of advise; if the Bear is attacking your buddie, and his flank is exposed, no matter the caliber, a Gut Shot will turn them, even stop them and make them sit down. They dont hang around or carry on the fight when shot in the guts.

 

[saturno_v]

Stopping a Bear involves incapitating them with properly placed shot, no matter the caliber.

As always, Caribou settles this very nicely...amen brother!!

If your looking for a "defensive" gun,close range and quick, here in Arctic Alaska, Bear Country, land and ice, hands down, NOTHING beats a 12 Gauge Magnum Slug round. 6 in the tube and one in the pipe in a fairly light weapon,

ahahah...exactly my point.....my $90 beat up Mossberg 500 it is a better big bear close range defense weapon than any other much more4 expensive boomer in my arsenal and any fancy big caliber bolt rifle thousands of-dollars-a-pop out there!

You need to see it to believe the damage that a Black Magic 3" Magnum slug does...

And that was the advice of an Alaskan guide...when you hunt in bear country, never be alone and take turn with your buddy at a pump shotgun stuffed with magnum hardcast slugs for emergency, close range work.