The Caliber Wars! Myths Vs. Reality.

[45_auto]

from what I've seen, there is little debate on which of those rounds are more terminally effective

Probably because people figured out long ago that all major handgun calibers are so close that you can't tell the difference.

With pistols, there are people who think 9mm is just as damaging as the .45, and .357 is no better than a 9mm +p.

And those people are correct.

All of the shootings by officers with the sheriff's department that I'm associated with have been using 9mm. We've gone up against .45's, .357's, .22's, .38's, 12 gauge, and 20 gauge that I'm personally aware of. So far the 9mm has won every single one of them .....

I personally prefer a .45, but my experience has been that anyone getting shot by ANY of the major handgun calibers has a hard time telling which particular one it was.

 

[Jath]

Now you're talking about a difference in training and gear. A well trained police officer with body armor is going to smoke the field against any average street thug no matter who has what. Many police officers can hold their own in a combat situation 4 to 1 with a 9mm, even if the bad guys have rifles and shotguns.

That's really beyond the scope of this particular thread though. A 3 to 1 officer with a 9mm might turn into a 4 to 1 officer with a .45, just because the bad guys drop sooner making it so that officer can move to the next target quicker. Its not really a question as to which caliber is effective, simply, which caliber is more effective compared to the other calibers.

 

[Kachok]

If someone wants a death ray for a handgun learn to shoot a 454 Casull or 500 S&W and load them with rapid expansion bullets, the large 50-70oz revolvers will make you beg for your compact 9mm back, and the blast will make you want to bring a recoil glove and hearing portection along with your CCW. No thanks I'll just shoot him 19 times with my 9mm. If he is still standing after that I'll be looking for the string that is holding him up.

 

[Frozen North]

If you add up the pro and con lists for each of the service calibers, it comes out to a wash.

Yes, the .357 Mag is smoking hot, but the recoil can be excessive, 5 to 6 rounds is not very much, and the muzzle blast can be crazy.

Yes, the .45 makes a big stinkin' hole, but the size of the round limits mag capacity in sub compact pistols used for concealed carry. It also increases grip size in double stacks to a point that shooters with small hands shoot them poorly.

Yes, the 9mm isn't as hot as the .357 and does not have the bullet mass of the .45, but you can stuff a whole bunch of them in a very small gun. The recoil is also manageable enough to be able to empty the mag with good control on target with a little practice. 9mm ammo is also much cheaper to facilitate much more practice.

In the real world, there is no real answer.

If we are just going to compare one tiny part of the equation (ballistics and energy) the choice is simple. If we add up all the other details that come up when you really carry a gun on your belt and may need to use it to defend your life, the water gets pretty muddy.

For some people, the choice is between a micro .380 or nothing.... are they wrong for choosing an LCP?

It is all compromise with handguns. It boils down to this, what problems are you willing to put up with to enjoy the benefits of each caliber.

There are enough variables to make your head spin.

 

[Pyro]

I carry a .25 automatic most of the time.
There ya go, let the caliber wars begin!

 

[Geckgo]

well, the 380 is an oddball in a pocket gun. Recoil is more manageable in my fullsize 45.

 

[Geckgo]

LOL, pyro we posted at the same time. My HP22a is quickly becomming my favorite

 

[Kachok]

I don't think the 357 is a real bad kicker, my fragile little sister in law shoots full power loads at the range and has one at the house for home defence, she is about 5'3" and 115lbs, if she can handle it accuratly I could not see any reason why a grown man cannot. That said it is not a one hit super gun either, just a small step up from the standard automatics.

 

[Jath]

In a light weight pistol, the .357 mag does kick quite a bit. But in a full sized pistol, .357 sig has about the same recoil as a .45 acp. .40 s&w has more kick than both. This is measured using the same pistol in different calibers. I don't remember exactly where the data is but the .357 sig has a lot less recoil than people think. yes the 9mm still has less than that, but I think the advantage in the .357 sig is there.

you get more mag capacity than a .45, same as a .40, and more hitting power than both, and same recoil as a .45.

I know mag and sig aren't exactly the same, but the rounds are similar enough to have crossover.

 

[303tom]

I carry a .25 automatic most of the time.
There ya go, let the caliber wars begin!

I carry a .22 yes it`s a magnum, but what about the handguns that are chambered in what are basically rifle rounds ?

 

[Jath]

you're talking about the FN FiveSeven.

That's a good round. I think that will be the next bust mock-up I do. So many people under estimate that round I think.

 

[pisc1024]

I bet things would have looked a lot differently if he used DRT rounds!!!!

 

[bigfatdave]

this is not a new idea, and common handguns do not have knockdown power
handgun knockdown power is a myth
there is no perfect bullet

1 -Placement
2- Depth
3- Width
... IN THAT ORDER, will assist in obtaining an involuntary stop. A lousy hit won't help. The caliber wars that go on endlessly are a symptom of bored posters who think they can BUY proficiency, think they can be deadly just by loading the right bullets into the gun.
Forget it, it is pointless without skill, and the difference between the duty calibers is negligible.

Someone will see the above image and want to post the linked image any minute now ... it is good for a laugh, and I'll point out that the phony 10mm wound track is what 'net commandoes THINK their wonder-bullets will do in the perfect spot every time, somehow.
http://www.johnwmyers.com/10mmgel.jpg

 

[bigfatdave]

go look at the raw data yourself

yes, we have all seen brassfetcher before, or should be thanking you for linking to it as a reminder.

I've found brassfetcher and other gel testing fascinating longer than I've owned a gun, actually. Mostly fascinating because of the endless attempts to find a death ray in a commonly available duty-size handgun

No common handgun round will provide a reliable involuntary stop. There is more to terminal ballistics than width, but handguns just don't produce the velocities to incapacitate people reliably.
And before you get into a big diatribe about the magical FFi7eSe7eNN, I've shot it into reactive targets, compared it to the carbine, and compared both to Tokarev from cold-war era pistols ... cheap Tok is just as effective and a lot cheaper, any effect 5.7 might have is negated by the limited availability and nerfing from FN in what they'll sell to the public. I don't care what some specialty re-loader offers, because I can't order from him when I run out of ammo if I really NEED ammo, and most of their claims are cherry-picked data as far as I can tell anyway.

To get reliable involuntary stops in a handheld weapon, it will take more than shortening a .223 case and loading it to the pressures that modern guns can take ... materials haven't advanced that much, it is going to take a much larger leap forward in engineering to get a death-ray you can run one-handed.

And another thing to think on ... every ammo manufacturer is currently making their premium expanding ammo to meet the FBI gel test ... 12" plus (but not too much plus!) in gel with good expansion, to minimize over-penetration and transfer all available kinetic energy into the target. Duty loads are all formulated to achieve that goal. Defense loads are mostly formulated to achieve that goal. With the exception of frangible ammo (snerk!) and ball ammo (better than some magic frangible entirely propped up with BS marketing, at least) pretty much everything is designed to get that FBI standard or get as close to it as possible.

 

[Jath]

this aught to sufficiently piss everyone who hates the FN fiveSeven off.

 

[Kachok]

I am not impressed at all with the 5.7 I have seen the BG tests and they do not match the performance of any of the standard handgun calibers. The TWC is not any better then the slow mo 230gr 45 APC and the PWC is much less. 9mm tops it in both catagories with adaquate penatration, and the 40 S&W simply blows it away. Mass/momentum/energy/cross section/sectional density/penatration/TWC/PWC there is no mesurment of bullet performance in which the 5.7 shows up even the modest 9mm, the hype is all about zipping through soft body armor with pointed bullets, but that is not soft tissue damage. Check out brassfetchers test of the 9mm 124gr gold saber much better performance then the 5.7 and that is not even a super hot round.

 

[bigfatdave]

Why, because it is not significantly more effective than a more easily available cartridge?

Nice job with the specific load for the Fi7eSe7eN and a generic ".45acp" for the other.

I don't hate it, I'm just amused by the clowns who think it is a magic death-ray. It makes a lot of trade-offs for a very limited specialization, punching armor. Then FN doesn't sell the armor punching stuff to the public, but will sell their varmint rounds at prices around the same as premium handgun ammo.
And then some FPS player will see it in meatspace and decide that it must be as effective as the videogame gun, so they buy it and assume their time rocking that PS/Xbox controller is all the training they need.

===

Hey, wait a minute ... I thought the Brassfetcher high-speed videos were from extra-dense gel ... dod something change there, or have you been basing all this silliness off of gel that was specifically formulated to NOT represent human tissue?

===

the hype is all about zipping through soft body armor with pointed bullets, but that is not soft tissue damage.

And I can do that with cheap Tok ammo leftover from the cold war anyway. Or ... you know ... with pretty much any centerfire rifle.

 

[Jath]

You clearly did not see the chart, the 5.7 is better than the 9mm, and almost as good as the .40. To say otherwise is a blatant disregard for the data.

The best advantage to the 5.7 in my mind is the virtual absence of recoil, and the high magazine capacity. it's also MUCH more accurate, and has a longer range as well.

You "experts" are wrong. Sorry. You may not like the caliber because you don't understand physics, but the darn thing works. Size isn't the most important factor in a projectile. The energy formula is E=1/2M*V^2

that means Velocity has more effect on energy than mass does.

If you can ensure all of that energy is deposited into the target by either having the round expand (as in a hollow point bullet) or yaw, (as is the case with the 5.7) more energy = greater damage on target.

Yes, the .45 and subsequently, the .357 sig does more damage, but that doesn't mean the 5.7 is a glorified .22. It's better than a 9mm for sure, and almost as good as a .40.

Quit using imaginary physics or wishful logic. LOOK at the data. LOOK at the physics. LOOK.

oh, and bigfat dave, I used .45 hydra shok. In all the tests I could find, that was one of the best, and it was the best they had on brassfetcher.com I gave .45 it's dues. I'm not trying to make it look bad, just put things into perspective.

 

[Jath]

you want a 9mm/.40 comparison? here it is.

9mm is 147 golden saber. Brassfetcher doesn't have the 124 version.

 

[Kachok]

You clearly did not see the chart, the 5.7 is better than the 9mm, and almost as good as the .40. To say otherwise is a blatant disregard for the data.

The best advantage to the 5.7 in my mind is the virtual absence of recoil, and the high magazine capacity. it's also MUCH more accurate, and has a longer range as well.

You "experts" are wrong. Sorry. You may not like the caliber because you don't understand physics, but the darn thing works. Size isn't the most important factor in a projectile. The energy formula is E=1/2M*V^2

that means Velocity has more effect on energy than mass does.

If you can ensure all of that energy is deposited into the target by either having the round expand (as in a hollow point bullet) or yaw, (as is the case with the 5.7) more energy = greater damage on target.

Yes, the .45 and subsequently, the .357 sig does more damage, but that doesn't mean the 5.7 is a glorified .22. It's better than a 9mm for sure, and almost as good as a .40.

Quit using imaginary physics or wishful logic. LOOK at the data. LOOK at the physics. LOOK.

oh, and bigfat dave, I used .45 hydra shok. In all the tests I could find, that was one of the best, and it was the best they had on brassfetcher.com I gave .45 it's dues. I'm not trying to make it look bad, just put things into perspective.

I saw your chart comparing the TWC of a slow mo 230gr 45ACP, first of all TWC is a secondary effect not the primary, secondly the 124gr Gold Saber is more impressive then the 5.7 (you did not post that one for some reason) for TWC as well as PWC. 9mms lack any noticable amount of recoil, it is like shooting a 22 to me. Energy by itself is NOT the only mesure of termilal performance, that is just plain silly, a 243 has the same energy as a standard 45-70, shoot a cape buffalo with a 243 and you will find out real quick which one does vastly more damage. Larger caliber bullets are more condusive with larger PWC at pistol speeds and that is not even in debate in the small bore crowd. You have much to learn about terminal ballistics, I used to be in the energy is everything crowd, but after years of reserch I began to understand how wrong I really was. If you want another funny comparison the 223 makes more energy then a 454 Casull, one of these is a marginal small deer bullet at best and the other is used by professional guides to defend aginst charging brown bear.
Here is the 124gr Gold Saber test that you failed to find http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92j3g168dIY&feature=related
High SD, momentum, and terminal efficiency allow a broadhead arrow to kill 1,000lbs+ anamals with less KE then a 22LR

 

[Jath]

I'm not in the energy is everything crowd. I'm not claiming that TWC is the best factor to shoot for either. I'm trying to put things into perspective. People are making all these false claims about effectiveness of this round or that. Yes, the 5.7 isn't the hardest hitting round, but neither is the 9mm. I'll take .357 sig over either one any day. But 5.7 has its advantages.

I'm trying to be a voice of reason. .45 isn't the end all caliber, and the 5.7 isn't the weakling everyone is making it out to be. They are all good.

I know a lot more about terminal ballistics than you give me credit for. Just for some background, I have taken about 5 college physics courses, 6 or 7 advanced math courses, Engineering courses, Chemistry courses, and plenty of research on the side. I know enough not to assume I know everything based on what everyone else is saying, or simply the math even. I use something called the scientific method whenever possible, and if that's not possible, I use lots and lots of research gathering and analyzing other people's data. I'm doing my best to make this stuff as accurate as possible. Just consider the possibility that maybe you're wrong. I consider that all the time, and I'm willing to admit when I am. This is not one of those times my friend.

One more note, I said that "If you can ensure all of that energy is deposited into the target" That is the little caveat I put into that statement about energy. You're right, if the round goes right through the target, and retains 50% of its energy, it's not as effective as a round that is 25% weaker and leaves 100% of it's energy in the target. But that's what the advanced bullet designs are for.

 

[bigfatdave]

It's better than a 9mm for sure, and almost as good as a .40.

meh
I can find 9x19 ammo everywhere in dozens of configurations and foddy is just as commonly available.
AND there are more than a few guns in those calibers, rather than one pistol and one overly long PDW ... both of them priced at a silly point. (exotic bolt guns and single-shot guns don't count)
If Fi7ese7enenenenen is so awesome, why is it still so rare? Why aren't there more guns in it available? Why do most departments/agencies that adopt it ditch it and go back to a common duty loading in a common duty gun?
It isn't a death-ray, it has proven about as effective as more common and diverse handgun loadings in real-world application. The purpose of the round in the first place isn't to cause involuntary stops ("knockdown power") ... it is to punch holes in body armor and the meat underneath.

And I checked ... the high-speed is being done in 20% gel rather than the 10% that is close to simulating flesh ... while a "multiply by 1.3" may work for approximate penetration, BrassFetcher says nothing about TWC or any other width measurement being proportional, I suspect that the double concentration gel is to make pretty pictures and study shapes more than it is to simulate meat. And it is nice for making pretty pictures, as I said, gel testing of projectiles is almost as fascinating as this search for a death-ray you can operate with one hand.

I'm made of meat, you're made of meat, and the bad guys are made of meat ... 10% gel roughly sort-of almost kind-of simulates something like human meat ... 20% simulates what? 10" of dense muscle? Buffalo meat? Frozen meat?
I don't know, but I know it isn't people meat, and that's what I care about.

 

[Kachok]

Then what is it about the 5.7s tiny PWC that gives it an advantage over the 9mms larger PWC? In the 5.7 defence it does at leased penatrate better then other sissy kicking rounds like the 25 ACP or the 32. No not even the 45ACP is the be all end all of handgun performance, but with PWCs messuring over 6 cu inches that leaves alot of wound to bleed out of, dropping blood pressure very quickly if blood bearing organs or major blood vessles are crushed or cut. Another major downside of the 5.7 is that it requires a longer barrel then the other handgun rounds due to it's overbore nature. The five and seven pistol has a 4.8" barrel, while other handgun calibers are usualy tested with a standard 4".

 

[Jath]

that is a good point, I was wondering why they used 20% instead of 10%

Ah well.

as for the other parts:

These are the US Law Enforcement Agencies that have the Five Seven it their arsenal.
US Agencies using the 5.7x28mm Weapons

P90

Atlanta, GA PD
Batesburg-Leesville, SC PD
Bellevue, NE PD
Bentonville, AR PD
Benton County, AR SO
Birmingham, AL PD
Bolton, NC PD
Bryan, TX PD
Burbank, CA PD
Camden, SC PD
Charles County, MD SO
Charleston County, SC SO
Chula Vista, CA PD
Columbia, MO PD
Creve Coeur, MO PD
Daleville, AL PD
Denton, TX UNT PD
Doraville, GA PD
Duluth, GA PD
Edina, MN PD
Edmund, OK PD
Grand Forks, ND PD
Greenwood County, SC SD
Hallsville, MO PD
Houston, TX PD
Indianapolis, IN PD
Jacksonville, FL PD
Jefferson County, OH SO
Las Vegas, NV PD
Lawrenceville, GA PD
Lexington, SC PD
Lincoln Borough, PA PD
Little Rock, AR PD
North Little Rock, AR PD
Olathe, KS PD
Palm Beach, FL PD
Palm Beach County, FL SO
Pasco County, FL SO
Ramsey County, MN SO
Richland County, SC SO
Salt Lake City, UT PD
Schenectady, NY PD
Sioux Falls, SD PD
Sparta, NJ PD
Tennessee State Police ERT
US Defense Protective Service
US Federal Protective Service
US Secret Service
Washoe County, NV SO
West Columbia, SC PD
Zephyr Hills, FL PD



Five-seveN

Atlanta, GA PD
Bellevue, NE PD
Benton County, AR SO
Bentonville, AR PD
Birmingham, AL PD
Columbia, MO PD
Creve Coeur, MT PD
Davidson, NC PD
Davis County, UT SO
Duluth, GA PD
Greenwood County, SC SO
Harahan, FL PD
Jennings County, IN SD
Lawrenceville, GA PD
Lexington, SC PD
Lincoln Borough, PA PD
Oakdale, ME PD
Richland County, SC SO
Slidell, LA PD
Whiteoak Burrough, PA PD



P90 or Five-seveN

Atlanta, GA PD
Batesburg-Leesville, SC PD
Bellevue, NE PD
Bentonville, AR PD
Benton County, AR SO
Birmingham, AL PD
Bolton, NC PD
Bryan, TX PD
Burbank, CA PD
Camden, SC PD
Charles County, MD SO
Charleston County, SC SO
Chula Vista, CA PD
Columbia, MO PD
Creve Coeur, MO PD
Creve Coeur, MT PD
Davidson, NC PD
Davis County, UT SO
Daleville, AL PD
Denton, TX UNT PD
Doraville, GA PD
Duluth, GA PD
Edina, MN PD
Edmund, OK PD
Grand Forks, ND PD
Greenwood County, SC SO
Hallsville, MO PD
Harahan, FL PD
Houston, TX PD
Indianapolis, IN PD
Jacksonville, FL PD
Jefferson County, OH SO
Jennings County, IN SD
Las Vegas, NV PD
Lawrenceville, GA PD
Lexington, SC PD
Lincoln Borough, PA PD
Little Rock, AR PD
North Little Rock, AR PD
Oakdale, ME PD
Olathe, KS PD
Palm Beach, FL PD
Palm Beach County, FL SO
Pasco County, FL SO
Ramsey County, MN SO
Richland County, SC SO
Salt Lake City, UT PD
Schenectady, NY PD
Sioux Falls, SD PD
Slidell, LA PD
Sparta, NJ PD
Tennessee State Police ERT
US Defense Protective Service
US Federal Protective Service
US Secret Service
Washoe County, NV SO
West Columbia, SC PD
Whiteoak Burrough, PA PD
Yeadon Borough, PA PD
Zephyr Hills, FL PD




Other manufacturers don't want to make weapons in 5.7 because they don't want to give competitors credit. They'd rather invent their own round that does something similar, which is what HK did with their MP7.

I see 5.7 ammo at every store I go to that sells ammo, except maybe walmart.

 

[Jath]

And who keeps talking about this "death ray" thing? What would the point of ballistic charts be if there was such thing?