The "I" word is in the air - (Impeachment)

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rick_reno

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I hope Bush hasn't crapped on the Alito nomination. That would be a real loss for the Nation. This administration has used the Constitution for toilet paper long enough - if they go after him, he'll have no one to blame but Cheney. ;) They're running a "poll" on impeachment with this story - a recent check shows 88% in favor of impeachment.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10561966/from/RS.4/

WASHINGTON - In the first weeks and months after 9/11, I am told by a very good source, there was a lot of wishing out loud in the White House Situation Room about expanding the National Security Agency’s ability to instantly monitor phone calls and e-mails between American callers and possible terror suspects abroad. “We talked a lot about how useful that would be,” said this source, who was “in the room” in the critical period after the attacks.

Well, as the world now knows, the NSA — at the prompting of Vice President Cheney and on official (secret) orders from President Bush — was doing just that. And yet, as I understand it, many of the people in the White House’s own Situation Room — including leaders of the national security adviser’s top staff and officials of the FBI — had no idea that it was happening.

As best I can tell — and this really isn’t my beat — the only people who knew about the NSA’s new (and now so controversial) warrant-less eavesdropping program early on were Bush, Cheney, NSA chief Michael Hayden, his top deputies, top leaders of the CIA, and lawyers at the Justice Department and the White House counsel’s office hurriedly called in to sprinkle holy water on it.

Which presents the disturbing image of the White House as a series of nesting dolls, with Cheney-Bush at the tiny secret center, sifting information that most of the rest of the people around them didn’t even know existed. And that image, in turn, will dominate and define the year 2006 — and, I predict, make it the angriest, most divisive season of political theater since the days of Richard Nixon.

We are entering a dark time in which the central argument advanced by each party is going to involve accusing the other party of committing what amounts to treason. Democrats will accuse the Bush administration of destroying the Constitution; Republicans will accuse the Dems of destroying our security.

Some thoughts on where all of this is headed:

The president says that his highest duty is to protect the American people and our homeland. And it is true that, as commander-in-chief, he has sweeping powers to, as his oath says, “faithfully execute the office” of president. But the entity he swore to “preserve, protect and defend” isn’t the homeland per se — but the Constitution itself.
The Patriot Act will be extended, but it’s just the beginning, not the end, of the never-ending argument between the Bill of Rights and national security. The act primarily covers the activities of the FBI; the sheer volume of intelligence-gathering across the government has yet to become apparent, and voters will blanch when they see it all laid before them. The department most likely to get in trouble on this: the Pentagon, which doesn’t have a tradition of limiting inquiries, and which, in the name of protecting domestic military installations, will want to look at everyone.
If you thought the Samuel Alito hearings were going to be contentious, wait till you see them now. Sen. Arlen Specter, the prickly but brilliant chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, has said that the issue of warrant-less spying by the NSA — and the larger question of the reach of the president’s wartime powers — is now fair game for the Alito hearings. Alito is going to try to beg off but won’t be allowed to. And members who might have been afraid to vote against Alito on the abortion issue might now have another, politically less risky, reason to do so.
Arguably the most interesting — and influential — Republicans in the Senate right now are the libertarians. They’re suspicious of the Patriot Act and, I am guessing, pivotal in any discussion of the NSA and others' spy efforts. Most are Westerners (Craig, Hagel, Murkowski) and the other is Sen. John Sununu. He is from New Hampshire, which, as anyone who has spent time there understands, is the Wild West of the East Coast. All you have to do is look at its license plate slogan: “Live Free or Die.” It’ll be interesting to see how other nominal small-government conservatives — Sen. George Allen of Virginia comes to mind — handle the issue.
For months now, I have been getting e-mails demanding that my various employers (Newsweek, NBC News and MSNBC.com) include in their poll questionnaires the issue of whether Bush should be impeached. They used to demand this on the strength of the WMD issue, on the theory that the president had “lied us into war.” Now the Bush foes will base their case on his having signed off on the NSA’s warrant-less wiretaps. He and Cheney will argue his inherent powers and will cite Supreme Court cases and the resolution that authorized him to make war on the Taliban and al-Qaida. They will respond by calling him Nixon 2.0 and have already hauled forth no less an authority than John Dean to testify to the president’s dictatorial perfidy. The “I-word” is out there, and, I predict, you are going to hear more of it next year — much more.
 
For months now, I have been getting e-mails demanding that my various employers (Newsweek, NBC News and MSNBC.com) include in their poll questionnaires the issue of whether Bush should be impeached.

If a tree falls in the forest, should representatives of the Democratic (sic) party snivel and whine about impeachment?
 
If a tree falls in the forest, should representatives of the Democratic (sic) party snivel and whine about impeachment?

That all depends on how fast Bush got on the phone to FEMA, and the Department of the Inerior, and the Fish and Wildlife Services, to go do endless reports on the environmental impact, up to and including how many fractions of a fraction of a degree the global climate will increase due to that tree falling, how much oxygen overa span of 32.7 years we will lose because that tree is no longer producing, and who we can throw money at to make this right, because someone somewhere is going through emotional distress because of that tree.
 
Impeach him about what???
"High crimes and misdemeanors" is the usual formula, I believe.

A gross violation of his oath of office would probably qualify.

pax
 
Yes, Barbara Boxer wants to make hay with the impeachment idea, one she got from John Dean, Nixon White House counsel. He said Bush "was the first President to admit to an impeachable offense". That doesn't make it so, but it has some credibility.

Even more credible to me is Lindsay Graham (R-SC), a prominent spokesman for the GOP and one of my Senators, being very unhappy with Bush's disclosure. Bush will not be impeached unless there is something bad enough to draw in the Republicans. I don't see that happening, so Congress will just waste a lot more time and get less done if they want to pursue this. They could accomplish more by passing explicit legislation, closing any loophole claimed by the White House and Attorney General.
 
yonderway said:
Deleted post's quote removed by Art


How so?

Real specific proof of impeachable offenses?

:confused:
 
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LAR-15 said:
Impeach him about what???

:confused:

well...courtesy of ramsey clark...

Articles of Impeachment

of

President George W. Bush

and

Vice President Richard B. Cheney,
Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, and
Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors. - - ARTICLE II, SECTION 4 OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

President George W. Bush, Vice President Richard B. Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, and Attorney General Alberto Gonzalez have committed violations and subversions of the Constitution of the United States of America in an attempt to carry out with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes and deprivations of the civil rights of the people of the United States and other nations, by assuming powers of an imperial executive unaccountable to law and usurping powers of the Congress, the Judiciary and those reserved to the people of the United States, by the following acts:

1) Seizing power to wage wars of aggression in defiance of the U.S. Constitution, the U.N. Charter and the rule of law; carrying out a massive assault on and occupation of Iraq, a country that was not threatening the United States, resulting in the death and maiming of tens of thousands of Iraqis, and hundreds of U.S. G.I.s.

2) Lying to the people of the U.S., to Congress, and to the U.N., providing false and deceptive rationales for war.

3) Authorizing, ordering and condoning direct attacks on civilians, civilian facilities and locations where civilian casualties were unavoidable.

4) Threatening the independence and sovereignty of Iraq by belligerently changing its government by force and assaulting Iraq in a war of aggression.

5) Authorizing, ordering and condoning assassinations, summary executions, kidnappings, secret and other illegal detentions of individuals, torture and physical and psychological coercion of prisoners to obtain false statements concerning acts and intentions of governments and individuals and violating within the United States, and by authorizing U.S. forces and agents elsewhere, the rights of individuals under the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

6) Making, ordering and condoning false statements and propaganda about the conduct of foreign governments and individuals and acts by U.S. government personnel; manipulating the media and foreign governments with false information; concealing information vital to public discussion and informed judgment concerning acts, intentions and possession, or efforts to obtain weapons of mass destruction in order to falsely create a climate of fear and destroy opposition to U.S. wars of aggression and first strike attacks.

7) Violations and subversions of the Charter of the United Nations and international law, both a part of the "Supreme Law of the land" under Article VI, paragraph 2, of the Constitution, in an attempt to commit with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes in wars and threats of aggression against Afghanistan, Iraq and others and usurping powers of the United Nations and the peoples of its nations by bribery, coercion and other corrupt acts and by rejecting treaties, committing treaty violations, and frustrating compliance with treaties in order to destroy any means by which international law and institutions can prevent, affect, or adjudicate the exercise of U.S. military and economic power against the international community.

8) Acting to strip United States citizens of their constitutional and human rights, ordering indefinite detention of citizens, without access to counsel, without charge, and without opportunity to appear before a civil judicial officer to challenge the detention, based solely on the discretionary designation by the Executive of a citizen as an "enemy combatant."

9) Ordering indefinite detention of non-citizens in the United States and elsewhere, and without charge, at the discretionary designation of the Attorney General or the Secretary of Defense.

10) Ordering and authorizing the Attorney General to override judicial orders of release of detainees under INS jurisdiction, even where the judicial officer after full hearing determines a detainee is wrongfully held by the government.

11) Authorizing secret military tribunals and summary execution of persons who are not citizens who are designated solely at the discretion of the Executive who acts as indicting official, prosecutor and as the only avenue of appellate relief.

12) Refusing to provide public disclosure of the identities and locations of persons who have been arrested, detained and imprisoned by the U.S. government in the United States, including in response to Congressional inquiry.

13) Use of secret arrests of persons within the United States and elsewhere and denial of the right to public trials.

14) Authorizing the monitoring of confidential attorney-client privileged communications by the government, even in the absence of a court order and even where an incarcerated person has not been charged with a crime.

15) Ordering and authorizing the seizure of assets of persons in the United States, prior to hearing or trial, for lawful or innocent association with any entity that at the discretionary designation of the Executive has been deemed "terrorist."

16) Institutionalization of racial and religious profiling and authorization of domestic spying by federal law enforcement on persons based on their engagement in noncriminal religious and political activity.

17) Refusal to provide information and records necessary and appropriate for the constitutional right of legislative oversight of executive functions.

18) Rejecting treaties protective of peace and human rights and abrogation of the obligations of the United States under, and withdrawal from, international treaties and obligations without consent of the legislative branch, and including termination of the ABM treaty between the United States and Russia, and rescission of the authorizing signature from the Treaty of Rome which served as the basis for the International Criminal Court.
 
Well, first of all, it would have to be decided whether the wiretaps (in this case, of international conversations where only one party was American, and where the conversations were intercepted as they came into the country, most of the time) were, in fact, illegal. Previous Presidents, both Democrat and Republican, have acted against foreign threats in ways that they were not permitted to do against Americans, due to the restrictions of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Also, POTUS has apparently kept Congressional leaders informed of these activities since they began, thereby satisfying the "checks and balances" requirement. If they didn't raise any objection then, they're going to have a hard time doing so now, and will probably be crucified along with President Bush for tolerating such "abuses" (if they were, in fact, abuses).

So, a responsible authority (usually the Supreme Court, in high-profile cases such as this - certainly not the allegations of political opponents) has to rule that the wiretaps were illegal. Having done that, the originating authority behind the wiretaps can be held accountable for them. However, given the years that it will take any court case to wend its way up to SCOTUS, I rather suspect Bush's successor will be in office before we have to worry about impeachment proceedings. It's going to be a really difficult job to prove that today's technology, applied to foreign telephone calls, is an infringement of basic rights. Think about it - a telephone call comes from overseas, passes through a satellite above the USA, and is routed down to a US receiver. If the NSA is intercepting the call off the satellite overhead, it's not tapping any lines, or any cellular communications, or anything like that, within the USA. Does this fit the classic legal definition of "wire-tapping" or not? Should be an interesting legal can of worms...

Note that I'm not opposed to impeachment proceedings if the POTUS's actions can be demonstrated to be at the level of "high crimes and misdemeanors" called for by the Constitution. I just don't think that we'll get there for several years yet, by which time impeachment will be a moot point.
 
LAR-15 said:
How so?

Real specific proof of impeachable offenses?

His admission of authorizing, over 30 times, a secret program that completely flew in the face of the fourth amendment, circumventing the FISA courts that could retroactively grant warrants, thus nullifying Bush's argument for why he needs such a program in the first place (though the idea of a retroactive warrant also seems to fly in the face of the constitution, he took matters completely into his own hands and bypassed entirely any chance for judicial review)
 
The kind of emotional drivel on this thread rivals anything on the DU. I've got news for ya, just because you think something is unconstitutional doesn't make it so.

Bush isn't going to be impeached, so go drink your Koolaid.
 
Looks like Conyers is taking the first step towards impeachment hearings...

Associated Press said:
WASHINGTON - Vice President Dick Cheney has called for "strong and robust" presidential powers, saying executive authority was eroded during the Watergate and Vietnam eras. Some lawmakers objected that President Bush's decision to spy on Americans to foil terrorists showed he was flexing more muscle than the Constitution allows.

At the same time, a Michigan congressman called for an impeachment inquiry.

The revelations of Bush's four-year-old order approving domestic surveillance without court warrants has spurred a fiery debate over the balance of power between the White House, Congress and the judiciary.

"I believe in a strong, robust executive authority and I think that the world we live in demands it," Cheney said Tuesday.

On Capitol Hill, senators from both parties said the role of Congress cannot be sidelined _ even in wartime.

"I think the vice president ought to reread the Constitution," said Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass.

Democrats said they were deeply troubled by the surveillance program, and contended the president had no authority to approve it. "He has no legal basis for spying on Americans without court approval," said Sen. Richard Durbin of Illinois, the No. 2 Democrat in the Senate.

Republicans said Congress must investigate whether Bush was within the law to allow the super-secret National Security Agency to eavesdrop _ without warrants _ on international calls and e-mails of Americans and others inside the United States with suspected ties to al-Qaida.

Rep. John Conyers of Michigan, the top Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee, introduced a bill calling on Congress to determine whether there are grounds for impeachment _ an event that is extremely unlikely in a Republican-controlled Congress.

Democrats called attention to a Bush statement in April 2004 that they said conflicts with what the president is saying now.

"Any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires _ a wiretap requires a court order," Bush said during a speech on the Patriot Act in Buffalo, N.Y. "Nothing has changed, by the way. When we're talking about chasing down terrorists, we're talking about getting a court order before we do so."

The White House said the president's comments _ two years after approving the domestic surveillance program _ applied to the kind of roving wiretaps the Patriot Act allows for law enforcement, not eavesdropping for foreign intelligence.
 
rick_reno said:
Arguably the most interesting — and influential — Republicans in the Senate right now are the libertarians. They’re suspicious of the Patriot Act and, I am guessing, pivotal in any discussion of the NSA and others' spy efforts. Most are Westerners (Craig, Hagel, Murkowski) and the other is Sen. John Sununu. He is from New Hampshire, which, as anyone who has spent time there understands, is the Wild West of the East Coast. All you have to do is look at its license plate slogan: “Live Free or Die.”

Good.

Then I suggest they clean up the party from inside and kick out the RINOs.

As far as impeachment goes, if GWB is guilty of what is claimed, nothing will please me more than to see the RINO-in-Chief take a permanent, well-deserved vacation.
 
Ohen Cepel said:
Then why didn't clinton get busted for Carnivore or Echelon?

Among other things.

And he was impeached. He just wasn't removed from office (as the Senate lacked the necessary 2/3 majority to remove him from office).
 
Why didn't Clinton get impeached over Echelon and Carnivore? Easy, he is a Democrat, :rolleyes: , I mean, come on Republicans are all evil, Democrats good. Now go drink your kool-aid:neener: .
 
longhorngunman said:
Why didn't Clinton get impeached over Echelon and Carnivore? Easy, he is a Democrat, :rolleyes: , I mean, come on Republicans are all evil, Democrats good. Now go drink your kool-aid:neener: .

That is totally correct.

Democrats are the good guys.

Republicans are evil
 
Yeah, what is that big meanie Bush trying to pull on us. It's not like there is a war going on or anything, C'mon its not like their is a group of incredibly evil people trying to destroy us and crash planes into our buildings or plan our complete destruction or anything. Dude, pass me the bong, peace brother.
 
Ohen Cepel said:
Then why didn't clinton get busted for Carnivore or Echelon?

Because he was Democrat and it was covered up by the media, Thehighroad.org, and his buddies in congress
 
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