The Terrible Trigger Concept

[HoosierQ]

I am in no way a competitive shooter. I practice, and I can hit what I am aiming at most of the time...some times better than others...some guns better than others.

So many people judge and make decisions on the trigger..."this thing had a terrible trigger"..."this thing had a great trigger"..."I got a trigger job and I was ok"...etc.

My question: Is "everybody" really that sensitive to triggers? I just have not found myself really noticing a lot of difference. All three of my pistols are striker fired polymers so I know I am not setting the bar very high there. My revolver is a 642 DAO so I know where that long hard DAO trigger pull fits in to this concept.

But other than those bent on extreme precision (and more power to you), is the difference between "normal" out of the box production triggers really that different...different enough that a lot of people notice?

I know that there is something to this for a lot of people...I am not scoffing...just wondering about the general shooting public as a whole.

 

[m2steven]

The difference in revolver triggers is amazing. Some are complete crap, and some are so smooth and predictable that the act of pulling the trigger does not cause unwanted barrel movement.

I have a Taurus which has the most difficult trigger pull i've felt on a handgun. It's impossible to keep your aim and pull the trigger at the same time in double action mode.

 

[MCgunner]

Learn to shoot the gun. I've never stumbled upon a trigger I couldn't learn except for maybe a Nagant revolver. Now, that one sux. LOL But, I shoot and carry a much maligned Kel Tec P11. I love the trigger for the application. Would I use it for bullseye competition? No, but that's not what this gun was designed for. The long DA is very smooth and very safe for pocket carry with no other safety devices, much as with your 642. I have shot well with it in IDPA competition and can mow down a rack of 6 6" plates at 25 yards in rapid succession with 8 rounds or so. I usually toss a couple when I'm shooting for speed. I don't think a self defense weapon, personal CCW, needs to be any better'n that! That gun shoots 3.5" groups at 25 off the bench, too. That's acceptable even for a service sized gun.

I love my revolvers, most of the center fire handguns in my collection being revolvers. I can transition from a DA or DAO auto to a revolver and back no problem. For this reason I don't like single actions and don't really like Glock style striker guns, but that's a personal thing with me. Everyone has their personal reasonings. Many have never fired enough rounds through a DA to learn how to shoot one. You can be very accurate at combat distances with a DA gun, you just need a little effort, a little practice. It ain't THAT hard, not like learning archery or something. I've been practicing with my bow every day for 6 months and am just now getting enough confidence to hunt with it. Dry firing a bit when you're doing nothing else can give you the smooth pull and feel without a range trip. But, some SA folks, rifle shooters, 1911 or Ruger Mk 2/3 shooters, will pick up a DAO or DA revolver and just give up after one stab at it saying they're unshootable. It just ain't so and it really doesn't take THAT much effort. If you don't feel the need, fine, stick with a 1911 and forget about pocket carry, but me, i love DA/DAO guns and my revolvers for discrete personal protection. I am armed 24/7, in the house, on the street, in the woods, everywhrere I go, and it's no more a pain that carrying a wallet in a front pocket. Yet, I have 13 rounds of 9x19+P on tap that I know I, myself, maybe not you, but I can hit with. I've been shooting this thing now for 13 years and I'm pretty danged accurate and fast with it. All it takes is practice.

BTW, I have two Taurus revolvers, a newer 66 and a M85SSUL that have as smooth, or in the case of the 85, smoother DA and lighter than the Smiths I've owned and fired. The older 66 with the hammer block action is a bit rough, but not that bad. The little 85 is just plain sweet, though. It's so good I hardly ever cock the hammer even when I'm shooting for precision with it. It will put 5 rounds off the bench into 3" at 25 yards and shooting the plates is fun with it although at our range, there ar 6 plates, so a five round cylinder will need a reload to clear 'em all. But, I've shot 6 of 6 many times with the little gun. Some of the best DA triggers out there are Taurus small frame revolvers.

 

[Oro]

But other than those bent on extreme precision (and more power to you), is the difference between "normal" out of the box production triggers really that different...different enough that a lot of people notice?

In my experience, yes, but it is more BRAND/TYPE variable than gun-to-gun.

Within the realm of, say, Double action S&W revolvers, 99% of all triggers on modern guns are going to be very similar, and only 1% fall outside of a relatively narrow band. People can discuss whether one is a little heavier/lighter than the other, creeps, stacks, etc., but 99% of them are going to be capable of consistent accuracy in competent hands. Of a reasonable sample size of S&W revolvers I've fired (maybe 50 +/-), ony ONE was badly in need of a trigger job in my opinion. And it was a 90 year-old N-frame .45. Later, I discovered it was intentionally made with an over-strength mainspring because of military requirements of the British at the time, and not because of actually any mechanical irregularities in it.

In DA/SA autos, again it's going to be brand-specific as they will have different actions but 99% of one maker's triggers on a certain style pistol will feel similar within a narrow band of variation. Once they break-in. I think too many people judge based on guns that are not broken-in and you have a large variation in initial feel until a few hundred live or dry fires are placed on any action.

Frankly, the only thing that in my mind makes for a terrible trigger is Stacking. Stacking is when there is a stair-step change in pull through the stroke, or a dramatic increase in pull weight right at/near the end. It also usually comes hand-in-hand with inconsistent pull weights. Take-up, creep, etc. can all be a normal part of a very decent trigger if it is consistent in it's pull and release. I don't obsess and go do a trigger job on a gun because of that. But stacking is indeed the one thing that ruins consistency and accuracy.

 

[JohnBT]

I like stacking, so there.

I've learned to enjoy good trigger pulls, which is one reason I like to buy guns locally instead on on line - I like to try the triggers and see what I'm getting

A mediocre trigger is sort of like a mediocre hamburger. It's still a hamburger, but you know it could have been better with a little more time and effort.

John

 

[Big_John1961]

I'm not trigger sensitive either. I've read about a lot of people squawking about the M&P auto triggers, and it's certainly not perfect. But I can shoot great with it, just like I can with my other pistols. It just takes time with any gun to get the hang of it.

Some people seem really sensitive to it though.

 

[JoeSlomo]

But other than those bent on extreme precision (and more power to you), is the difference between "normal" out of the box production triggers really that different...

Yes. Like night and day.

different enough that a lot of people notice?

Only to those who have actually had experience with a well tuned trigger/firearm.

Most shooters never bother to get their firearm fine tuned by a good smith, and they don't need to either.

Take an automobile. Do you REALLY need to soup up your car? Nah. BUT, if you did, you WOULD be able to tell the difference between YOUR souped up car and a friends "normal" car.

Same thing applies to firearms.

Once you own a finely tuned firearm with a SWEET trigger job, it is hard to go back imo...

 

[Jim Watson]

It is hard to go back. I am spoiled to good triggers and have trouble with a tough one.

At one time there was an intentionally variable trigger for target shooters who wanted help getting the "surprise break." The pull was always crisp but it was never the same weight of pull over a short string. I don't remember the maker.

 

[Fumbler]

Triggers vary a lot, a whole lot.

There are all sorts of variables, trigger travel length, pre travel, over travel, weight, weight at different spots during the trigger pull, the arc the trigger travels (or no arc at all for something like the 1911), etc.

Some people learn to shoot with some triggers and just can't get the hang of other triggers.

I'm not real sensitive to triggers, but it does take me a few shots to get used to something. I shoot mostly Sigs, DA revolvers, and have owned 1911s. I can shoot them all fine, but if you hand me a Glock, XD, or any other striker fired gun it'll take me a second before I can shoot them as well.

That's talking about range shooting. If you hand me any pistol I'll shoot it well enough to defend myself up close.
I'm not real picky. I don't think I've ever based my decision to buy or not to buy a gun based on only the trigger.

Even in striker fired guns there's a lot of variability in the triggers.

 

[10-Ring]

I use to express the same sentiment. Then a few years ago a new shooting buddy broke out his baby -- a custom 1911 that he had set for competition. The trigger was unbelieveably smooth, crisp & light and the resulting accuracy & consistency was mind bobbling.
I understand the place for nice triggers and appreciate those guns w/ them, but for the most part, I've stuck w/ my stock triggers & just learned to shoot them

 

[Slamfire]

Put me in the "precision" category. A clean trigger release is very important for consistent accuracy. And that includes rifles and pistols.

A person can learn to shoot well with 6.5 pound triggers in a rifle, as long as the release is clean, but heavy triggers in handguns create a lot of movement in the piece, before release, and after. And don’t let anyone tell you that follow through is not important. In a handgun, just in what direction you pull the trigger and how much that moves the pistol after release, makes a huge difference where on target the bullet lands.

For folks who just rapid fire at bill board sized targets seven yards away, I doubt trigger pull means much of anything to them.

 

[tipoc]

A couple of months back I was at the range when the fella next to me asked if I could try his gun which was a Sigma. He said he was not doing so well with it and it was his first handgun. He asked if I could try it and give him an opinion as to whether it was him or the gun. I could see from his target that he was all over the the place with his shooting at 7 yards.

It took me about 10 rounds to get used to the trigger which IMHO was/is a misdesigned thing meant to get around violating Glock's patents. It would take quite a bit of work to get good with the Sigma trigger. The standard Glock trigger is not IMHO great but it can be good and with a little work, very good. Not so the Sigma. It is a design that makes it more difficult for new shooters to master I believe.

The fella tried my 1911 and it was like a different man was shooting. He was not great but the beginning was encouraging him unlike the Sigma trigger which discouraged him.

Too heavy and rough a trigger pull in a da revolver retards the learning process.

After a little work I can usually get OK with about any trigger. But a bad trigger pull is a hindrance to good shooting and to accuracy while a good trigger is a joy.

tipoc

 

[Floppy_D]

My question: Is "everybody" really that sensitive to triggers?

I'm a shaky jake. I got it from my dad. My hands shake always, sometimes more than others. As my hand muscles tense, the shaking increases. So for me, a nice crisp trigger really helps, and I don't want to handicap my already mediocre shooting with anything less.

 

[MCgunner]

It can work in reverse. I was at a club shoot once and didn't have a .22 pistol for one of the matches, so a friend who shoots a lot of bullseye loaned me his M41 Smith. I was just coming down on the backstop when the first round fired itself.... They gave me a few rounds at first to get used to it, then I fired my group. Breath on that thing and it goes off. I'd rather have a little more pull weight than that. Still got second place. My buddy who owns the gun won and he's a better shot anyway. But, would I carry that thing in my pocket next to my jewels? No, I think not. DA all the way for carry.

 

[mongo4567]

I've gotten spoiled shooting a lot of firearms with tuned triggers, old S&W/Colt police sidearms for example. I mainly want the trigger to be smooth and crisp. I like a good 4-5 pound trigger on a single action defensive gun, just heavy enough to be safe. I like a 3-4 pound trigger on a hunting rifle. I can shoot fine with heavier triggers like on military surplus firearms; I enjoy those too.

 

[David E]

It depends at what level you want to execute.

Up close, even the 27# trigger of that horrible "Compact Off-duty Police" can get inside the "A" zone.

One handed, or at distance, not so much.

What I've found makes a tremendous difference for me is the overtravel. It's a subtle thing and easily overlooked........until you try a trigger that has virtually none of it.

I'm a big believer in NOT fighting your own damn equipment, so you won't see me carry the aforementioned "C.O.P." or Sigma anytime soon.

 

[warnerwh]

For the most precise accuracy a trigger that is crisp and light is a necessity. Trying to use a bad trigger and getting used to it may be fine for some shooting but not for the most serious shooters. If there's precision shooting going on at your range ask around and see what people like in a trigger. You're not going to find heavy triggers with a a lot of creep and over travel. . Once you use start using good triggers you'll not likely want to go back to heavy pulls with a half a mile of creep and an inch of over travel. Then again some people don't care enough to worry about the trigger much. To each their own.

 

[Mr.510]

My recent trigger experience

I just had Scott at Springer Precision do a combat/carry trigger job on my XD45C.

In stock form the gun was plenty accurate enough for it's purpose and, if I may be so bold, I'll say that I was "proficient" with it. The stock trigger pull was kinda long, kinda stiff, and had quite a bit of over travel. But all these things were certainly "good enough" and, after 6,000 rounds I was used to them and they did not bother me one bit.

I know that as a shooter I *should* be able to adapt to virtually anything... but the long reset on this trigger was giving me fits! After training seriously in my weekly range sessions for months trying to get double-taps down pat I finally gave up. My brain reached a hurtle with this gun that I could not afford to not get over. If I'd continued to work with it maybe I could have gotten over it. Maybe something at another class would "click" and I'd be blasting off perfect double taps all day long as I can with most other guns. But this is my 24/7 carry gun and I'd literally put 2-3k rounds down the pipe just working on double taps and was not confident in my ability to carry them out. I thought to myself, "What if a crackhead tries to stab me tomorrow, the first round doesn't stop him, and I hang up on the trigger reset? I'm dead!"

I gave up and had the trigger done. I'd guess the reset is now half what it was before and I can do perfect double taps in my sleep with it. It also has zero discernible over travel and a shorter, crisper, four pound pull. My slow-fire groups tightened by 20% and my rapid-fire groups tightened by 50% - overnight with zero further training. I can rapid-fire full mags keeping every round in a 12" pizza box at 50 feet with it. I guess I suck if a trigger job improved my shooting that much. But that's OK. I am now confident in my ability to defend myself and my family with this weapon.

I thought I was pretty adaptable, but I guess I was sensitive to this particular trigger issue and it was a real deal breaker. So I "fixed" it!

 

[cchris]

Some triggers "snap" and some you just have to pull on. As mentioned before, the Sigma will never just "snap", no matter what you do to it - not the way the trigger system was designed. Most other guns however, will.

As long as you learn to shoot with the trigger you're used to, it shouldn't make a difference. Sure, you could pick up a really cheap pistol with a good trigger and shoot fine with it, but if it jams, I'd take a non-jamming pistol with a crappy trigger and just learn to shoot with it.

 

[Slamfire]

Breath on that thing and it goes off. I'd rather have a little more pull weight than that.

I guess I smashed my fingers too many times, but I cannot use a handgun with a trigger pull less than 2.5 pounds. I will set the thing off getting my fingers in the trigger guard.

 

[John Parker]

Mr. 510,

Your XD has a long reset? Strange, I never felt mine was long at all. (The trigger reset, that is...har har)

 

[jad0110]

Weight has never bothered me. Actually, I prefer weight, to a point of course (Taurus 94s are a bit much, IMO); gives me a nice counter balance to work with. As a result, I shoot revolvers better in DA than SA.

Roughness and overtravel do bother me, however. Overtravel in particular.

When I got my Springer 1911 NIB, the trigger was terrible; only my Taurus 94 was worse. It was rough, stiff and had a sloppy letoff with a ton of overtravel. The letoff in particular was very stiff, so achieving any kind of accuracy was all but impossible because the gun would noticeably jerk when the trigger released and slapped against the disconnector and sear. $50 later, my groups shrank by more than half. It is now smooth, with a much improved letoff and less overtravel. It could still be better, but it is at least quite useable now.

My CZ-452 trigger is considered heavy for a rifle, but that doesn't bother me. It have a bit too much overtravel, which I'll be addressing shortly.

 

[David E]

Your XD has a long reset? Strange, I never felt mine was long at all.

They all do, unless they came from Spingfield's Custom Shop.

When you get one that has the same, or less, reset distance as a tuned 1911, then you'll understand.

 

[Mr.510]

Your XD has a long reset?

John Parker: Well, not any more it doesn't! The reset seemed really long to me though I didn't actually measure it. It never bothered me until I decided to learn perfect "ba-bam" double taps. Then I worked at it so much that I figured I'd automatically use one in an SD situation and botch the second round under stress. Not good.

One of my friends fired it and couldn't figure out why the trigger was limp after the first shot and it wouldn't fire a second. When I explained it he was like, "It has to go that far forward to reset, ***???" In the XD's defense that guy shoots 1911s almost exclusively so his perspective is a bit skewed. The long over travel and reset seem to be a common complaint over at XD Talk as well. Springer Precision machines their own billet trigger bar to address both issues at the same time.

 

[20nickels]

It's also good to remember that triggers break in with pulling/shooting. I do some trigger work on all my keepers. They are rarely "perfect" from the factory although I have an S&W that comes close.