The ultimate dilemma .... maybe .....

[P95Carry]

I have thought of this ... quite a few times. Leaving movies aside, where this scene has been played more than once .... imagine if you will .......

A BG has gotten in to your house ...he has your wife/daughter/son/husband ....... at gun point .... gun to head kinda deal. You are armed ..... you carry 24/7 and so your piece is at hand. But you come on the scene late .... unable to have prevented reaching this stage.

*** do you do!??

If a clear headshot and you have cover .... do you ''go for it'' if BG cannot see your piece come out?

Do you meakly surrender your piece on BG's instruction??

I know .... circumstances alter events .. always will, but ..... in broad terms ... do you think there'd ever be a situation where takin the BG out would be viable? Is his threat a bluff or real? Could you rely on that necessary degree of accuracy?

I doubt this scenario would happen to other than a mere .000001% of us ... but it has given me pause for thought that's all. Just another interesting situation to explore.

I tend to think that .... however much a risk to your loved one .. that is the only card the BG has ...... if, and heaven forbid he'd do it ...... he does shoot ..... he must surely know that he has signed his death warrant anyways.

So ... for him .... where is the percentage??

 

[Majic]

First of all I wouldn't shoot. Muscle spasm caused by pain could cause the BG to shoot the hostage ( as you said, throw out the tv BS).
No I wouldn't surrender my weapon as at that momment we have a stand off with no clear winner. Heavens forbid the BG shoots the hostage, but then the BG dies in the next few seconds.
I would retreat with my weapon held ready to fire to give the BG an avenue of escape which could defuse the situation. If the BG continues to hold the hostage while escaping I would follow, keeping my presence known hoping the hostage will not just sheeply do as the BG wishes. If the hostage offers resistance then the BG may relase them as they are impeding the escape. It's hard to back out of somewhere dragging someone with you while trying to hold a gun to their head and looking for you at the same time.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Indoors, I'd be tempted to put a round through the floor, (I live in a house with one story and no basement, so that's easy for me to say,) and hope the flash and noise would spook the criminal into doing something self-defeating, e.g., dropping his weapon and throwing up his hands.

 

[sgt127]

I think I would get him talking, slow down his reaction time, make me the bigger threat to his safety than his concern over the hostage, very slowly walk in an arc away from where the gun is pointed, wait for the muzzle of his gun to waver and come down or towards me and then take the shot. I agree that I would likely NOT take the shot if the muzzle is at the hostage. I'm afraid startling him by firing a round may make him shoot the hostage.

I was one of our Dept instructors in HIPS training, Homicide in Progress, ala Columbine type shootings. We set off smoke alarms, loud stereos, etc in schools to simulate confusion, noise etc. a 4 man team was approaching down a hallway, all armed with blue Simunition Glocks. I set off a Bird Bomb, basically an M-80, in a steel pot when they were about 20 feet away. the point man Cranked off a round and put a blue splat on the wall at about the 9 Ft mark. I asked him later why he fired and he said that noise scared the crap out of him and he felt "he had to do something". I found that really interesting about human nature.

 

[Drifting Fate]

Never surrender.

 

[faustulus]

Not sure what I would do but I know what Keyser Soze would do.

 

[Jim March]

If you've got a clear shot, and you're close enough, and you're damned cool headed, you shoot his gun.

Not *quite* as stupid as it sounds.

You give up, and he'll kill both of you.

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

I agree with Sgt127, talk to him. Do not surrender your weapon, after all, that's between your ears, the tool's in your hand.

I have done some thinking about this in the past. My conclusion was to offer the BG some real world cause & effect. In other words, if you shoot my wife/child, I'll then have no reason not to shoot you. I'm an expert shot, you get shot low. Think of the consequences of that. Parapalegic, body wastes in a bag, & your sex is all on the recieving end in jail, for the rest of your life. Give it up & you're going to be much better off in the long run.

That's presuming the BG isn't totally spaced on drugs. In that case there can be no motivational presumptions as to how the BG may act. Play it by ear & silently pray. This is a scenario where I just might unload my gun & drop it on the floor & get out of sight. I know my residence far better than the BG does. With an apparent clear way out, he might move & give me an acceptable ambush situation. Or just let the hostage go & leave, through the window or whatever. If I hear a shot though, well, I own more than one gun & we're back to me shooting him.

900F

 

[Sean Smith]

Better to take action and accept risk than to do nothing and face certain failure. Kill him.

 

[P95Carry]

You give up, and he'll kill both of you.

That of course Jim is the absolute bottom line eh ....... so it does boil down to having to do something.

I guess the worst example of this scenario would be the BG spaced out on some dope etc ... then no chance of rationality and also, maybe ... he won't care if he gets shot either. That perhaps is the true ''nightmare'' situation.

Taking that into account, then it seems logical to make some quick assessment ..... and if then it seems the guy is at least ''sober'' .... probably inform him that he's a dead man if he takes the hostage's life. That proves he is in a no-win personally.

Hardest part to get to grips with is the hostage being your nearest and dearest .... kids etc .... apart from a major ''pucker factor'' I wonder how it would feel.

I imagine two aspects ... first the sheer fear for their life .... but second .... I think a cold and deep calm .... driven by our total protective instincts ..... I doubt there is one of us here who would not take a bullet or even lay down their life for their loved ones.

Rational thinking would be perhaps the greatest priority.

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

Start talking and do it in a calm manner, all the while keeping him covered.

You want to take the initiative away from him, throw off his timing, but not startle him into a rash course of action. Be prepared for the hostage to do something stupid/desperate to try and save thier own life.

I will not surrender my weapon, because I want the BG to consider me the biggest threat, to concentrate on me instead of what I am trying to get him to do. I will be trying to maneuver him to where I want him and if a shot presents itself then I will be prepared to take it.

The key is to talk to him/her and to convince them to cease thier activity and for everyone to walk away safely and maybe one to go to jail, but that is the best case scenario.

 

[ZekeLuvs1911]

Absolutely take the headshot. It is PROVEN that a dead shot to the CNS will short-circuit the entire human body. Anyone willing to take hostages is willing to shoot. Never surrender your weapon as that is signing your death warrant. In the above scenario, it sounds like you are less than 20 feet away from the perp. I've practiced headshots at that range. I'm pretty good. So, in conclusion, go for it!

 

[Edward429451]

Not a nice scenario. I would not surrender. I'd keep him covered and calmly tell him he can go without being shot if he releases the hostage, certain death if he does shoot them.

At that point time is on your side, no? Wear him down a little and he will want to leave. (Then shoot him in the back on his way out.)

(He commited a felony in your presense, and its reasonable to assume that he'll continue his violent behavior if you let him go.)

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

Edward429451,

I would disagree on one point and that is shooting him in the back on the way out.

He is no longer an immediate threat to you, since his back is turned. If he was backing away and raised his weapon, then yes, shoot.

Can a reasonable person, believe that his life is now in immenent threat? No, his back is to you, you are not under the gun and unless he turns to engage you it is a no go.

The law deals with intent at the moment in time. No matter how sure we are that the individual in question, will commit future crimes, our responsibility and protection under the law ends when the encounter ends, if he is leaving and has ceased to be an immediate threat, then we cannot shoot.

If you shoot him, then you are likely to go straight to trial and likely end up in jail.

 

[BHPshooter]

I view this somewhat as I would a kidnapping scenario. Being from Utah, there has been quite a bit of this, what with the Elizabeth Smart thing and all.

In that case, the man who took the Smart girl told her and her sister that if they made any noise, he would kill them. Of course we all know that if someone doesn't make noise, the LARGE majority of cases end up with the girl raped, mutilated, or both; and murdered. (The Elizabeth Smart case is definitely the exception, not the rule. results like that are unheard of.)

That's how I see a home hostage scenario. If the ??? has a hostage, I'm not going to chance dropping my gun and having me and the hostage die fruitlessly. I'm also not going to just sit there, as he will eventually make a desperate move, as cornered animals frequently do. I couldn't live with that kind of scum getting away, either. No, I believe I have a duty to take action. In a scenario like this, someone is going to die -- I'd much prefer that they have the same odds of dying that I do.

Wes

"Fight back! Whenever you are offered violence, fight back! The aggressor does not fear the law, so he must be taught to fear you. Whatever the risk; and at whatever the cost, fight back!"
-- Jeff Cooper, Nov. 1993

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

Ok, at risk of flame and talking about something I have never been involved in, nor do I ever hope to be, here goes.

1). NEVER DROP YOUR COVER. Never take the muzzle of your weapon off the BG. Never get too close to him, either. He may try charging you when you least expect it. Everyone will be dead except the BG and that's just not acceptable as an outcome and it will BE the outcome if you comply with his request to drop your guard.

2). The best response to someone grabbing you as a hostage, human shield, cover, etc. is to try to go completely limp. Make gravity your best friend. Not many BG's want to continue to hold up 60 to 150 lbs of something that is not exactly cooperative nor exactly combative. Trying to pick up said uncooperative load can expose the BG to more risk of gunfire than he may wish and he may yield the day and retreat.

3). If you're going to shoot the BG, make damned sure you hit him and hit him decisively and not anything else living that you love. That goes without saying, of course, but it bears repeating because in the stress of the moment you may cowboy up and think you have a shot when you don't.

I personally don't care if I shoot a BG in the back if he's holding one of my kith and kin. I don't care where I shoot him at all. When (not if) I got the opportunity I'd take and make the shot. My main concern in taking the shot is overpenetration on the BG. If he's holding one of my kids, then I'd just as soon my wife hold him at gunpoint while I run a pike through his throat. If he's in my house, threatening my family, he's made an absolutely fatal capital mistake and no quarter will be shown.

About 30 years ago in a small rural town in north central Texas my cousin's daughter discovered a burglar under her bed when the family came home one evening. My cousin picked up a length of pipe about 4 feet long, hit the burglar across the head with it in the semi-darkness, and knocked him to the floor. The burglar continued to resist and my cousin explained 'I have a shotgun', held it to the back of the burglar's neck as he stepped on his head while standing over said burglar. Burglar continued resisting and my cousin increased the force he applied to the burglar, breaking burglar's neck. Sherriff's office responded within minutes, collected burglar who expired in custody after struggling in the ambulance.

My cousin was not bothered further by the county authorities nor the court.

Now, my cousin owns several fine hunting rifles and is a decent shot. I have never discussed with him if he considered using one to subdue the perpetrator. If he had, the burglar may not have injured himself in a fatal manner.

Guns save lives. Squirming BG's lose their options for survival.

Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[krept]

well said.

i guess there are all kinds of nightmare scenarios. it's just a tough call because you get into the nuances... significant other's demenanor, mindset of the bad guy, his intentions, your setup, etc...

if there is one person on your side and one against you, in the grand scheme of things that makes 2 against 1. hopefully you will find the best resolution based on how much you and your team member trained and the options available.

I guess if you get to the generic worst case scenario and the bad guy tries to kill/rape/attack/kidnap to crimescene #2 your wife/husband/buddy/kid you have to decide if you are the type to stand idle or take action no matter what.

cheers

 

[P95Carry]

Big thx for all the input.

This is a fascinating situation ....... one which I sincerely trust none of us ever has to face. But ...... it is of interest to dig down and see what thoughts people have.

By exchanging ideas and opinions, it gives a greater breadth to one's own thinking .... sometimes maybe even making for a better result if we are faced with that awful challenge.

 

[RandyB]

If my options were that limited I'd most likely take the shot. If I could I'd offer options like "let her go and just walk away." Explain that you hurt her "your death will be slow and painful." If the BG made a move to shoot me 1st (turn the gun from the hostage and towads me), if I had a good sight picture, I'd shoot, otherwise, get behind cover/retreat/etc.

This personally is one of the worst nightmares for me. That and being in a defenseless position while my family was in danger.

 

[foghornl]

I have a system worked out that I hope I never have to use for this:

I say a specific code word...

Wife repeats code word...

I say same code word again...Wife buckles knees and drops to floor. Lead starts flying less than 2 seconds later...

As I understand it, even the "Bulgarian Strongman" can only support up to about 100 Lbs one-armed, so his choices are limited...

1. follow hostage to the floor, reducing angles available to shoot at me.

2. grab hostage with both arms, dropping weapon.

3. release hostage, now I have clear shooting path.

If someone has more deeply examined/experienced this, please enlighten me. So far, this is the best idea I have.

 

[Edward429451]

Sounds like a good idea to me.

 

[P95Carry]

I get the drift there Foghornl, and sounds like a good scheme, in essence ... but ..... not quite clear on the sequence.

1. follow hostage to the floor, reducing angles available to shoot at me.

2. grab hostage with both arms, dropping weapon.

3. release hostage, now I have clear shooting path.

OK, #1 ..... OK with that but #2 ......... you mean you grab hostage? AND drop your weapon? Am I misreading?

The #3 .. release hostage ... you release hostage? I can't get a clear pic here .... could just be I am very thick ...... not unusual!!

I'd see this more as #1 ... then #2 would be ..... assuming hostage been able to head for floor and BG grip released .... SHOOT ..... like fast!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW .. let's assume so we have a marker ..... BG/hostage are separated from you by a room's width .... say - 12 feet.

 

[SoCalGeek]

P95, i believe he was referring to options that the bad guy had at that point.

 

[P95Carry]

SoCal ....... There!! I knew I was bein thick! Duh! :banghead:

Yep of course .... hadn't viewed it that way around ....... it makes more sense! Need more coffee!

Mind you .... predicting a BG's moves ........... scary!

 

[Mikul]

Shoot.

If you give up the gun, you are both dead.

If you wait, he may get desperate and shoot you, then her, and run.

You had better be able to make that shot in your sleep. People say that center of mass is all you need most of the time. When someone you love is under the gun, "most of the time" isn't worth a Democrat's soul.