The Uses of a Rifle: What is 'General Purpose'?

[Kendal Black]

Discussion here about the scout rifle concept and general purpose rifles got me thinking. It would clarify discussion to catalog all the uses to which rifles are put. Then it would be easier to discuss whether a rifle is 'general purpose' or nearly so.

These are the uses I've come up with. Add more, or advance or challenge the thinking here.

Taking small game. A full powered rifle, such as a .308 or .30-'06, is quite capable of this. You use handloads that fling lead bullets at flea flicker velocities. I think Townsend Whelen popularized this. You will likely need to change your sight setting.

Varminting, pest control. There are varmint loads for the .308, though it is a bigger caliber than needed, and the short barrel on a scout rifle is not ideal either. You might switch to a stronger optic than the usual 2.5x scout scope, or get closer.

Larger game. A scout rifle is fine for most of it. Some alternatives, such as those in .223, are questionable. The .30-30 or 7.62 x 39 are fine for deer, maybe not for larger species.

A scout is plausible as a mountain rifle, in that it is not very heavy and has respectable range. It can be used as a plains rifle, no doubt, but a longer barreled rifle in a flatter shooting caliber is perhaps more nearly apropos. For most woods hunting that calls for a rifle, a scout rifle is as good as it gets.

Large, tough and dangerous game; wilderness defense against the same. Here the nominal scout rifle caliber of .308 is a bit out of its league; most riflemen would select more rifle if given the chance. In an emergency, one would give it one's best shot(s) with a .308 but no one is recommending the scout as a 'stopping rifle.'

Short range self defense. Here is where the scout rifle is plainly not very good. It is a bolt action; it has a scope. Some people evaluate a rifle for close defense by running it through the El Presidente drill. I am not sure that is quite right, for two COM hits with a high powered rifle may be redundant, but it gives some idea about the relative handiness of various weapons at short range.

Military combat. The bolt action is mostly obsolete for the purpose, though a scout rifle with a bullet drop compensating optic of some kind might be worth considering for the Designated Marksman. A scout weighs less than many alternatives; that is the only argument in its favor, but a pretty good one.

Civil unrest or protracted social disorder. I wouldn't feel too awkward about it if a scout were all I had, since I don't see this as mainly a firepower problem, but a problem of situational awareness with maybe the need for a few shots.

Resistance to miltary invasion. Not too likely in this country, at present, but then America is not the whole world. Can someone with a scout rifle manage to 'liberate' a more military weapon? I would say quite possibly he could, if he is careful about it, watching for his chance.

Well, you get the idea. Add to the uses I've listed or subtract, or detract. The more nearly we can fine tune this list, the nearer we can come to an objective assessment of what is general purpose and what is not. Bear in mind that a part of Cooper's thinking is the general purpose rifle must use a widely available cartridge. Your general purpose rifle is good for no purpose at all if you cannot load it.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Jeff Cooper wrote a great length about what a general purpose rifle should be able to handle. Art of the Rifle is a good book to own. As to your point, it's not intended for large dangerous game - that's what a lion scout is for (again, see Jeff Cooper).

 

[zfk55]

I dunno, brother. Looking at your post count on the opening post makes me a little leery of posting on this one.

Yep. Mr.Cooper has it covered.

 

[sKunkT]

The general purpose of a rifle is to send a projectile downrange. It's usefulness depends on the intent of the user.

 

[Kendal Black]

If we wish to go beyond what Cooper achieved in his time, we will need to evaluate the matter anew, and for ourselves.

Never a bad idea to think for yourselves.

What I am looking to do is reexamine the requirements. The scout rifle is at this time an old concept. I do not dispute that it is a good one, but if we ever stop squinting at what is really required, we end up being stuck with a Tower musket forever. (Nothing against the Tower. If you want 3 shots per minute and 10-20 MOA it will do it all day long.)

zfk: 667 now.

 

[minutemen1776]

Truthfully, I never saw the utility of the vaunted Cooper scout rifle. It seems to be an effort at doing lots of things "adequately," but it ends up being a tool I'd never select first for any single task. I guess that a "general purpose" rifle just isn't for me. I'd no sooner have one gun for everything than I'd have just one club in my bag for 18 holes of golf.

Also consider the various purposes you've listed here, and ask yourself if you're willing to compromise the suitability of your rifle just to fulfill all these purposes with a single weapon. When will you be called on to accomplish all these things at once? With the possible exception of large, dangerous game (which I'll likely never encounter anyway) I can fill all these roles with a .22 rimfire, an AR-15, and a .308 bolt-action. And I'll likely spend less money on all three than I'd spend on a custom Cooper wanna-be Scout rifle.

 

[Sam1911]

I wrote a little bit about this question in a thread on Ruger's new Gunsite Scout:

Utility from a single weapon doesn't seem popular among most gun owners these days though with so many different offerings out there. The days of meat rifles are over I guess.

Oddly, it IS popular, in theory. Almost every new shooter (and some not-so-new) say they want one rifle to "do-it-all." Plinking, long-range targets, deer hunting, a coyote here or there, home defense, and "SHTF." (At least I didn't mention any flippin' ZOMBIES! ... oh, and zombies!" )

But very few of us are really as limited as such requirements would suggest. Or as limited as our grandfathers and great grandfathers were, who certainly DID have one "do-it-all" rifle -- if they could afford anything more than the family shotgun, that is.

These days guns require a relatively lesser percentage of our discretionary income, which for almost every one of us is a far bigger proportion of our income (or credit ... ha, ha... ). What self-respecting "gun guy" (or gal) doesn't have a .22 rifle in the cabinet, along with the old reliable deer rifle (lever or bolt)? And these days it seems like EVERY shooter owns at least one AK or AR because, you know, we just SHOULD, and maybe we shoot some competitions, and someday we might have to fend off a mob, and most of them can now be had for somewhere between a few hours' and a few days' pay, so it isn't a real hard purchase to justify. Heck, many of us have spent more on a TV!
And then there are the cool old milsurps like grandpop carried in the war. Maybe a precision long-range bolt gun, and on, and on.

And then there's Ruger's new Scout rifle. It does nothing that other rifles don't do. It isn't terribly more flexible than other models. It isn't lighter than the lightest, isn't more accurate than the average, isn't more powerful, isn't even the most "middle-of-the-road!"

There is no reason someone needs to spend $800 on a "meat rifle" when the world is full of both new and used lever guns, Rem 760 pumps, bolt actions of every variety -- all of which are just as capable of "doing it all." And, in fact, which DID "do it all" for tens of thousands of shooters/hunters for most of the last century.

Is Ruger marketing this especially to the new hunter who REALLY only is going to have this one rifle? Naah, I don't think so. IMHO, what Ruger is doing is selling the "OFFICIAL" do-it-all rifle for the gun nut of long standing who remembers Cooper and the ideas he endorsed. And now, finally, those of us who have longed to see his dream come true (well, sort of...) can buy the "do-it-all" Scout, and give it a place of honor ... next to our Rem. 700, Marlin 336, Win 94 and M70, Ruger 77 (why not?) and all those other rifles that didn't "do-it-all" with quite so much pedigree ... or at least, fanfare.

Nothing wrong with that.

 

[CmpsdNoMore]

My firearm budget is pretty small. I currently have two .22 rifles, a 12 gauge pump with 3 different barrels (SD, vent rib, rifled) and a handgun. I once had 5 rifles, two shotguns and a few handguns, but most of them fit me for what I needed. I sold and traded all of them away but my .22 rifles and I am working on buying what fits me best for what I do.

I was thinking of finding a old, abused Mauser rifle/action and turning it into a scout, but it seems like the cost of doing that would be greater than buying a Ruger scout. The only thing I'd prefer the Mauser for is the stripper clip guide because they're so much lighter and don't get in the way with the magazine in the rifle and not protruding underneath it.

I don't need much from a rifle, most of my shooting will be under 100 yards. Where I hunt in Northern Wisconsin 100 yards is a long shot unless you're sitting on a power line clearing. I don't expect to "do it all" from a scout rifle, but I think it would "do enough" for what I would need one for.

I'd rather have one rifle that I knew how to shoot well than to have lots of rifles that I've only shot enough to sight it in.

 

[Sam1911]

I was thinking of finding a old, abused Mauser rifle/action and turning it into a scout, but it seems like the cost of doing that would be greater than buying a Ruger scout.

Member 35 Whelen just did that for about $200: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=626935

Considering all the old, already "bubba'd" mil surplus rifles out there, available cheap, seems like you could have your rifle to "do it all" with for a lot less than Ruger's new Scout-ish rifle.

 

[CmpsdNoMore]

I've been keeping my eyes open for something like that. It would definitely be cool to "rescue" an old, neglected mil-surp.

It's going to be at least a year or so before I have the cash to by a rifle anyway, so we'll see what comes along in the mean time.

 

[ball3006]

I have had a "scout" rifle for years. It is a Finn Mosin Nagant 91-30 with a Darrell mounted scout scope. The rifle is a minute of angle if I do my part. The rifle cost me a whole 90 dollars at a flea market. What kind of person who calls himself a gun guy only wants one gun? chris3

 

[Sam1911]

I'm in the mode of taking existing rifles and seeing how little needs to be changed to accomplish my goals. Others seems to want to see how much they can change about a rifle they have or they buy.

I have a Yugo M48 Mauser I think cost $139, IIRC. It was rough looking but cleaned up to be just fine, interesting, even*. It's in 8mm, and I could re-barrel it to something more common -- but 8mm is a great round, like a German .30-'06, that will do everything I could want out of a medium rifle round, and I handload. So what's the point?

I could put better sights on it, but I really don't need to. I can see the originals fine, and hit anything I would care to shoot at with it.

I could cut it or otherwise modify it, but I've come to realize that I'd never make a modification that was worth the effort and loss of original character, to me.

It just works, as is. If there's something it can't do well, I'll use a different gun.


* -- When I got the grease out of the stock I discovered two areas where small knots or voids had been cut out and very small dovetail "dutchman" patches had been fit to make the surface complete. The work was exquisitely done, and as a woodworker, I really appreciated the skill that went into salvaging that piece of wood to make what was really just a run-of-the-mill military rifle stock.

 

[ironhead7544]

To me, the best things about the scout concept is that it is very fast and handy. The first one I put together was a No.4 SMLE that had been "sporterized" by some one else. Had a like new barrel. Shortened the barrel to about 20 in and added a front sight off a Marlin 9mm carbine. Cut one of the sight leaves off the "L" sight for a fold down peep. Put a Weaver mount for the Contender pistol on the barrel and used a Simmons handgun 2x scope. Now you can get a mount from XS Systems for the SMLE. Smoothed up the trigger a bit. Later added a poly stock for $35.00. Then you have a very fast, short throw bolt action 10 shot rifle in a powerful cal that can be reloaded quickly with stripper clips. If I were going to build another truck gun I would probably use the SMLE again.

The SMLE Jungle Carbine is about ideal as is but they are costly now.

JMHO

 

[Onmilo]

In my line of thinking a "General Purpose" rifle is one that an individual can use in his location that will cover all needs associated with the use of that weapon, hunting, target shooting, defense.
In my area, the best general purpose rifle I have found is a .22 rifle.

In a pinch I can hunt all edible non flying small game with it,
I can use it for eliminating pest animals such as skunk, raccoon, rats, and pigeons,
I can take it out and do some informal plinking.
I can set up targets on the backboards and do some serious target shooting all the way out to 200 meters.
Most of my .22 rifles are tube fed semi autos or magazine fed bolt guns but,
In the case of my Ruger 10/22 with magazine feed, high velocity hollowpoints, and good quality 25 shot magazines I can use the rifle to defend myself and my family from unwanted intruders of the two legged variety, not my first choice but it WILL do the job in a pinch!

This is about as general purpose as one rifle can be.

 

[henschman]

Of course you should re-examine Cooper's suggestions for the "all purpose rifle," in light of the current state of the art, and of your own personal requirements. It could be different for different people, based on all sorts of things. For instance, some guys don't mind packing around a rifle that is a pound or two over what Cooper suggested. If you can tolerate a 7 1/2 or 8 1/2 pound rifle, it opens up all sorts of possibilities, and brings semi autos into the realm of possibility.

It might depend on where you live, too... if you live where I do, then the biggest game animal is a whitetail buck, which you don't really need a .308 for. Lots of guys hunt them with .223s and do just fine. Also some folks live in heavily wooded and hilly areas where they will likely never have to shoot out to 500 yards... and others live in the high desert or on the plains, and frequently shoot at a lot longer range than that.

Of course modern technology should also be considered, especially all the advances in optics since Cooper's day. Sure a scout scope is fast, but so is a red dot, or a 1-4x scope, or an ACOG. In fact, for the average range that most people hunt at, I think a red dot would probably be an even better choice than a scout scope for a lot of folks. It would also be infinitely better for close quarters defensive purposes. You can even get a red dot that is night-vision compatible. Wouldn't that be something that would be useful for a fella who is out "scouting?" I think suppressors are another item that deserves consideration.

Another thing to give consideration to when buying an "all purpose rifle" is what it will MOSTLY be used for. If you aren't really a hunter but want something that you can hunt with in a pinch, you might choose differently than someone who hunts all the time and just wants to be able to defend himself, or his liberty, in a pinch.

Cooper definitely had his 'druthers on what he thought was the best "all around" setup, but he also encouraged folks to build their own "pseudo-scouts" to accommodate their own personal needs. He definitely wouldn't have wanted people to cling to his requirements as holy writ, even if they didn't make sense for that individual.

I am actually not sure what I think would be the best "overall" rifle for all situations. I think if I were stuck with one rifle having to live off the land, protect my family, and dodge roving patrols of bad guys and occasionally picking some off, I would probably do just fine with about any of my center fire rifles, whether it's the M1A, the AK, the AR, or the surplus bolt guns.

People love to agonize over the tools, because that is the fun part, but the most important thing is to pick a rifle, whatever it is, and learn to use it to its maximum effectiveness.

 

[Kendal Black]

[...]

It might depend on where you live, too... if you live where I do, then the biggest game animal is a whitetail buck, which you don't really need a .308 for. Lots of guys hunt them with .223s and do just fine. Also some folks live in heavily wooded and hilly areas where they will likely never have to shoot out to 500 yards... and others live in the high desert or on the plains, and frequently shoot at a lot longer range than that.

[...]

I see the point of that. People are mobile, though; their situations may change. I used to live in heavily wooded, 'hills and hollers' country. My Trapper .30-30 was the very thing, plenty for anything I'd use a rifle for, but then life took me to the place where the central plains meet the western mountains, and something with longer legs seemed appropriate; I bought a long .308, with a nice scope.

Then family needs hauled me back to the hills and hollers, and long barrels and tangly thickets don't mix. A scout would have worked either place.

 

[Averageman]

You could do a lot worse than a M1A Scout Squad Rifle and mount optics as needed.
Actually I think the need for a light rifle is actually a need for more push ups.

 

[MachIVshooter]

My do-it-all "scout" rifle:



Not the best at anything, but will do for everything. Of course, it's not my only rifle. But if I could only have one, it'd be this. I can go between red dot and 3-9x in seconds, or use the irons at any time. The .308 suffers from a 16" barrel, but will still put down big game at moderate ranges. It can be loaded down for small game, or use light varmint bullets at full velocity. It is short and handy enogh for close quarters use, yet still accurate enough to cause casualties at 500+ yards. A little on the heavy side fully loaded, but not too encumbering, and respectable firepower with 25 rounds of .308 on tap.

About the only thing it really can't do is fill the role of a shotgun to shoot birds in flight.

Of course, my .22's are better for small game, my .17 Rem is a better pelt hunting gun, my .220 swift a better varmint gun, my .25-06 is a better medium game gun, my 8mm mag a better big game gun, my .375 Ultra a better dangerous game gun, my 12 gauge a better HD gun (for my ears' sake), etc......

The Ar-10 carbine is, however, a perfect pig gun, IMO.

 

[Onmilo]

I myself don't think the "Scout Rifle" concept falls into the category of a "General Purpose Rifle".
A "Scout Rifle" is a specialized piece of equipment designed for individuals who do things like, say, reconnaissance and scouting,,,

 

[Kendal Black]

CJ: I do not come to praise Caesar.

There are some things wrong with the scout concept as realized thirty-odd years ago, that we might put right today. In particular, the scout rifle's sniveling awful performance in an El Presidente drill bothers me. Close shooting is the likely defensive scenario for police or private citizens, and the scout isn't good at it.

It isn't good for the most likely defensive use, of its only likely users. Is it then 'general purpose'?

 

[Onmilo]

Yeah, when considering the use of a "general purpose rifle" by the likes of an urban citizen, the likely scenario would be a defensive action.
In that case an M1 Carbine would better suit the nomenclature!

 

[Maverick223]

I don't care for the concept of the GP rifle. It is just too big of a compromise for my taste. One rifle is capable of doing many things, but when built for GP use it never seems to do any task particularly well. I, therefore, prefer to have several rifles that are best suited to a range of similar tasks. Plan ahead.

 

[Onmilo]

One of the great things about America is we can have as many of what we want as we can afford.
We are not limited to "Yes our citizens may own firearms, actually they may own one rifle, one shotgun, one handgun,,," mentality here.
As such we can buy, set up and use a number of different firearms for different and varied applications.

I agree the whole concept of one gun that can do everything went out the door with the flintlock musket.

 

[Quaamik]

A scout rifle is an intersting concept, but 30 years have taken a lot of wind out of it's sails.

Looking at the firmest of Coopers rules on the concept, it should be a commonly available cartridge that is capable of taking big game. He settled on .308 becasue it was very common worldwide. Since then both .223 and 7.62x39 have overtaken it. .223 is light for big game (I'd hate to try to hun anything larger than a medium sized deer with it). On the other hand, 7.62x39 is not far off from 30-30 and I personaly know a man who uses 30-30 to hunt Moose (and has ones head in his living room taken by that round).

Use the 7.62x39 as a base. Use a lighter weight optics such as a dot sight (remember Cooper was a fan of a 1.5x - 2.5x optic on it). An AR platform with a 16 inch barrel comes in close to ideal. If you could get one with one of the polymer / carbon fiber receivers, it would be lghter and handier than his original, yet have more ammo and be be able to handle almost everything the original could. It would be light for Elk or Moose sized game, especially at ranges greater than 150 - 200 yards. It would also be a little range limited (say 400 - 500 yards tops). Other than those two areas it would outshine the original.

 

[Sam1911]

A "Scout Rifle" is a specialized piece of equipment designed for individuals who do things like, say, reconnaissance and scouting,,,

If you're reconnoitering and scouting, it would be good to take no shots at all, to avoid noise/discovery -- unless you need to fire defensively to break contact and escape/evade.

When all my stealth and evasion skills have failed, and I'm firing danger close to break contact, I'm not sure a 5-shot bolt action rifle would be my first choice.

So what make that a scout's rifle?