Maybe we have a different definition of flinching. I'm talking about physically pushing the gun forward and down (and often to the left) in anticipation of recoil. I don't really consider that a trigger control motion but am certainly willing to have it explained to me. In attempting to replicate I have never been able to jerk the trigger hard enough to move the impact point that far.
Things That Instructors Say I Don't Believe
- Thread starter 94045
- Start date
- Status
Maybe we have a different definition of flinching. I'm talking about physically pushing the gun forward and down (and often to the left) in anticipation of recoil. I don't really consider that a trigger control motion but am certainly willing to have it explained to me. In attempting to replicate I have never been able to jerk the trigger hard enough to move the impact point that far.
It appears that you believe that that shooter is trying to push the gun/recoil away from them. Flinching is part of anticipation of recoil, but it isn't pushing the gun forward or down. That may be what you are perceiving, but that movement is caused by the tightening of the grip and slamming the trigger to the rear.
Interestingly you'll see it when top tier competitive shooters get a failure to ignite...they aren't jerking the trigger. What is happening is they are pushing forward on the gun to bring it back from expected muzzle flip...it is a somewhat advanced technique
Anticipation is wanting to make a shot go off rather than letting it go off as you stay in the process of aligning the sights and pressing the trigger straight to the rear.
1. Hold the gun loosely in your hand
2. Start with your trigger finger as far forward in the trigger guard as it will extend
3. Suddenly tighten your whole hand slamming you finger as hard as you can through the face of the trigger and into the rear of the trigger guard.
I hate to admit it but I'm a relatively new shooter (one year) who has a flinch. Shooting low but centered. I dry fire perfectly. 200 dry fires and not one dip, then 100 more dry fires with tired forearms and shoulders and not one dip.
Load up at the range and subconsciously I feel the need to control what is about to happen.
I've analyzed my shooting to death and played with every grip, finger placement, slow fire, five different guns, ect. None of that is the problem. The flinch is all in my head.
I come from a drag racing background where a small switch controlled by a single finger results it a sledgehammer to the back of your seat. I never feared it and never blinked. But after I released the transbrake switch and launched, I controlled the vehicle.
Flip the switch on a grinder and you must instantly control the torque but then you continue to control the grinder until it's turned off. Nobody ever analyzes what happened the ten milliseconds before a grinder was turned on. They look at the control of the grinder well after the switch was flipped.
I feel like shooting is so different from other activities that require control after the switch is flipped, it's no wonder many men develop or start with a flinch.
Shooting requires all of the control before the switch is flipped and if a person was not taught to shoot at a young age, it can be an uphill battle. Especially if the person has fine tuned other skills over a period of years.
I wonder how many instructors take all of this into account when trying to fix a students flinch. I'm still trying to instruct my brain to deal with it.
Load up at the range and subconsciously I feel the need to control what is about to happen.
I've analyzed my shooting to death and played with every grip, finger placement, slow fire, five different guns, ect. None of that is the problem. The flinch is all in my head.
I come from a drag racing background where a small switch controlled by a single finger results it a sledgehammer to the back of your seat. I never feared it and never blinked. But after I released the transbrake switch and launched, I controlled the vehicle.
Flip the switch on a grinder and you must instantly control the torque but then you continue to control the grinder until it's turned off. Nobody ever analyzes what happened the ten milliseconds before a grinder was turned on. They look at the control of the grinder well after the switch was flipped.
I feel like shooting is so different from other activities that require control after the switch is flipped, it's no wonder many men develop or start with a flinch.
Shooting requires all of the control before the switch is flipped and if a person was not taught to shoot at a young age, it can be an uphill battle. Especially if the person has fine tuned other skills over a period of years.
I wonder how many instructors take all of this into account when trying to fix a students flinch. I'm still trying to instruct my brain to deal with it.
Jack Ryan
Member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2019
- Messages
- 777
Dry firing isn't shooting. It is playing.
And it won't fix a flinch either.
entropy
Member
I'll give you the same advice about recoil that my Dad gave me when I was 12-"Don't worry about what the gun is doing to you-worry about what it is doing to the target!" In other words, concentrate on the target and just let the recoil happen. (I was learning how to shoot .357 Magnums at the time.) When you conquer that, then you can worry about controlling muzzle rise with semi-autos.
Bolt or clamp your grinder down, they don't jump around so much then. Mine isn't bolted, but I clamp it to the table when I use it. It's stored under the table otherwise.
I try to, the hard part is often finding the source to the contrarian habit.
I had a hard time understanding the resistance to resetting a handgun's trigger in parallel rather than in series until I was able to trace the source to folks who started in Small Bore rifle shooting...where they were taught to pin the trigger to the rear until the sights returned onto the target. At least I was able to figure out why folks overgrip handguns (prehensile thumb) and why there was so much angst over differing grip angles (cultural martial traditions)
Most of it is.
It is your investment in the result and desire to control the process rather than just staying in the process throughout the trigger press
That's great advice because it deals with mindset and it's straight to the point.
Well said and accurate.
Corpral_Agarn
Member
JohnKSa be me too it.
I see/diagnose/fix a lot of shooters. Most of them suffer from the flinch (low left syndrome).
Most can be 'fixed' in about 5-10 minutes. At least 'fixed' enough to pass CCW shooting quals, anyway.
I can take a bit longer to take those skills to an advanced level.
I try to get them to disassociate the trigger press with the bang/recoil. It is an isolated step. I try to get them to ignore the recoil: "pretend that every shot is a dry fire."
For many getting them to FOCUS on a smooth trigger with proper follow-through (without moving the muzzle) gets their mind off of the recoil (the source of the flinch)... thus... trigger control.
once they see what they can do (shots where they belong), it's a lot easier for them to continue doing it.
Corpral_Agarn
Member
There's an old saying that goes "live fire is to see how well you practiced dry fire".
it's meant as a joke, but dry fire has lots of value.
Corpral_Agarn
Member
you nailed it in the bold.
You are in the right position, but honestly, I think you may be 'over thinking' and psyching yourself out.
Next time you hit the range, try this:
1. Dry fire to determine how much (little) pressure it takes to get the hammer to fall.
2. load
3. use the same pressure and take the trigger all the way to the rear as far as it goes (hit the rear 'wall'). Ignore the recoil. Let the gun rise.
4. bring your sights back on target
5. allow the trigger to reset.
6. repeat 3
this drill makes sure that you are not coming off the trigger too soon.
sometimes shooters will activate the trigger and come off the trigger as fast as possible. this can be bad for good follow through on the trigger.
Corpral_Agarn
Member
My Pops had similar advice!
This makes sense to me particularly after this afternoons experiment.
I tried 9mmepiphany's experiment:
1. Target at 5 yards.
2. P365 with Flush Mag laying loose on top of one hand with an inch or two of slack around the grip and finger all the way against the trigger guard
2. Convulsed the entire hand tightening hand aeound the grip and slamming the trigger all the way to the stop in one motion
3. 5 Shots fired and all hit within the 7" shaded zone within the middle of the target.
I still can't replicate how trigger control could miss the entire target at that range.
Jack Ryan
Member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2019
- Messages
- 777
There is another "old saying".
"Riding the pony in front of a grocery ain't got squat to do with barrel racing."
entropy
Member
Dime drill dry firing definitely does has a purpose, and does help. Trains one to not disturb the sight picture while pulling the trigger back. It would translate more to dressage than barrel racing.
Obturation
Member
In my mind (I'm not an instructor, competitor, trained marksman or anything else) flinch is 100% mental. Not 99%. You have to let the shot drop effortlessly without anticipation and without hesitation but with the intent to fire the shot. Anything less will cause larger groups. As your ability to focus and concentrate gets better it becomes more natural and easier. Anyone can learn to shoot a 3" group at 10 yards but putting a bullet through another bullet hole with a hard kicking gun takes training of your mind and some with your body too.
PWC
Member
I've always taught that low left was too much finger on the trigger, pushing the trigger (and gun) to the left. Less finger allows straight to the rear pull. Pistol must fit correctly in the web of the hand; use the off hand to align the pistol so the sights (and recoil) are in line with the forearm.
Concentrating on sight alignment, front sight, and steady trigger pressure straight back until the break WILL overcome anticipation, which causes the flinch/jerk. How many rounds depends on how motivated the shooter is, how often they shoot, AND whether they have the dicipline to follow the basics when no one is watching.
Concentrating on sight alignment, front sight, and steady trigger pressure straight back until the break WILL overcome anticipation, which causes the flinch/jerk. How many rounds depends on how motivated the shooter is, how often they shoot, AND whether they have the dicipline to follow the basics when no one is watching.
Last edited:
Good Ol' Boy
Member
Ehhh, I wouldnt go that far. It is training.
But as I've said all along it's no replacement for live fire and I certainly think a lot of folks dont get enough of that.
Good Ol' Boy
Member
So if you were observing someone shooting how can you tell the difference with a snap cap thrown in?
I've watched so many videos from top shooters and a couple from Leatham recently where he spoke about just what you're talking about.
Probably not, but part of me wonders if that technique is what I've been subconsciously trying to do in the quest to get faster.
Your thoughts?
Wichaka
Member
A couple thoughts....
The mind won't allow the body to experience impact as a surprise. It will clinch up...thus where the "flinch" comes from. Bracing for impact...or in the shooting world...loud noise and recoil. Can it be trained out of people? Some mostly, while others it can be tamed. But it takes time, as the brain can only be changed so fast as your processor speed will allow.
Most anyone can "Instruct". A piece of paper can instruct...example, instructions that are included in the box for an item.
Instructor - Shows you how
Teacher - Shows you why
A good trainer will have both attributes.
The mind won't allow the body to experience impact as a surprise. It will clinch up...thus where the "flinch" comes from. Bracing for impact...or in the shooting world...loud noise and recoil. Can it be trained out of people? Some mostly, while others it can be tamed. But it takes time, as the brain can only be changed so fast as your processor speed will allow.
Most anyone can "Instruct". A piece of paper can instruct...example, instructions that are included in the box for an item.
Instructor - Shows you how
Teacher - Shows you why
A good trainer will have both attributes.
It wasn't meant as a joke...at least when a USPSA GM taught it to me. Michael Bane referred to him as the Human Ransom Rest...he really is that accurate
Might be, I think it is part of the natural progression of recoil management...I do believe it starts subconsciously
But there are a lot of subtleties to it. For most folks it is better to learn to see the sights faster as they return onto target and shortening the time between that recognition and pressing the trigger
It isn't really for getting your splits below .25sec as much as it is getting them below .17secs
As mentioned, trigger control is pulling the trigger without moving the gun. Yanking the trigger and pulling the gun off target is one form of poor trigger control because it is moving the gun during the trigger pull. Flinching during the trigger pull is another form of improper trigger control because it is also moving the gun during the trigger pull.
You will get ratty groups and misses by yanking the trigger (one type of trigger control problem) but you'll stay more or less on target. On the other hand, flinching (another aspect of poor trigger control) can make a person miss a human silhouette target at 5 yards. I've seen it happen.
Well, it certainly isn't shooting and I suppose it can be playing in some cases, but it can also be good training if it is done properly.
When done right, it's the easiest and best way to learn proper trigger technique, and it can help with flinching/anticipation problems too if it's done properly.
There are certainly things that can only be learned during live fire. A really good training regimen will involve both live- and dry fire.
waterhouse
Member
When you say missing the whole target at 5 yards, how big of a target are we talking?
We often do dot drills with cadets with 2” circles, and if you do anything poorly enough you can miss the whole dot.
We do demonstrate that poor sight picture and poor grip can still get good hits on a dot, but that poor trigger work usually leads to misses.
Like others have mentioned, I consider flinching to be part of trigger control.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
