Thinking about a .25?

[Speedo66]

[QUOTE="MedWheeler, post: 10516998, member: 70976" I've yet to hear of any self-defense case in which a defender was subsequently inured or killed after shooting at an attacker with any firearm (by these cases, I'm referring to those in which the victim was targeted for rape, robbery, or encountered in a burglary, and not those in which the victim was targeted specifically for assassination.) Anyone here who has a story of a friend of a friend who shot a guy (or who was the guy shot) with a .25 will still have to admit that the person shot stopped doing whatever it was that got him shot in the first place.[/QUOTE]

I had a case where an irate, but small, customer shot a rather large supermarket security guard 7 times with a .25. The security guard was rather pissed, as you can imagine, and beat the living crap out of the shooter. The security guard later testified in court against the shooter.

 

[MedWheeler]

Speedo66, I'm sure there are scads of similar cases in which LEOs have been shot with guns even more powerful than the .25 (a .45 in some cases!) and subsequently went on to effect the arrests of their attackers, and even testify against them later. LEOs, like many security officers, take upon a duty to continue the fight even after being shot or shot at (the security officer in your case, whether motivated by official duty or personal outrage, clearly was one of them.) The would-be rapists, robbers, and burglars I was referring to do not. These are actually the scenarios I meant, the ones in which a person shot was the one committing a crime against the shooter.

 

[grampajack]

How about two .25 ACP rounds at once? Kidding. But there is this weird thing.



I kind of like it from a strictly bizarre-o standpoint and nothing else.

I like it too from a oneoff standpoint, but I do find it rather disturbing that the company is actually pushing it for self defense. First of all, if one .25 ACP can't make it to the vitals, then two certainly isn't going to improve your situation (and at SD range you know both bullets are going to impact within a cm of each other, so it's not like you're increasing your hit probability). On top of that, the combined recoil of two .25 ACPs is probably as much or greater than that of a .32 ACP, and you would be so much better off with one .32 ACP vs. two .25 ACPs fired simultaneously. I kind of want to shove that thing up his hindquarters and chew him out for either being a neckbeard or taking advantage of people, or both. Either way, that thing could cost someone their life one day, considering they could have had something more powerful for the same size, weight, and recoil.

 

[grampajack]

[QUOTE="MedWheeler, post: 10516998, member: 70976" I've yet to hear of any self-defense case in which a defender was subsequently inured or killed after shooting at an attacker with any firearm (by these cases, I'm referring to those in which the victim was targeted for rape, robbery, or encountered in a burglary, and not those in which the victim was targeted specifically for assassination.) Anyone here who has a story of a friend of a friend who shot a guy (or who was the guy shot) with a .25 will still have to admit that the person shot stopped doing whatever it was that got him shot in the first place.

I had a case where an irate, but small, customer shot a rather large supermarket security guard 7 times with a .25. The security guard was rather pissed, as you can imagine, and beat the living crap out of the shooter. The security guard later testified in court against the shooter.[/QUOTE]

There was a case a while back where a guy got carjacked and shot the carjacker with a 5 shot .22lr revolver with about a 3-4'' barrel on it. He pumped all five rounds directly into the guy's chest at point blank range, after which the carjacker proceeded to beat the living you know what out of him. Two hours later the carjacker, now in another state with the gentlemen's car, decides to go to an ER because he's in pain, not because he's in any real physical danger.

So yea, shooting someone with a mouse gun can absolutely get you killed. The carjacker had a knife if I remember correctly. Either way, the guy's very lucky to be alive.

 

[Shaq]

Recent shooting in my part of the woods. Guy attacked a property owner and, after firing a couple of warning shots into the ground, the property owner shot him in the forehead with a .25 auto. Bullet did not penetrate the skull; went under the skin and around. Did stop the fight, however. The shootee died the next day from bleeding on the brain (subdural hematoma). I'm sure that there are exceptions, but it seems that a .25 will kill you about as fast as a snake bite.

The .25 auto frequently does that - burrows under the scalp. That's why it frequently fails at suicide attempts.

 

[heyjoe]

the overwhelming majority of people who were shot by a 25 acp that i came across in my career were pretty dead.

 

[grampajack]

the overwhelming majority of people who were shot by a 25 acp that i came across in my career were pretty dead.

What was your profession, medical examiner? 80% of all people shot survive, almost 10% survive shots to the head or heart. If you're a doctor or first responder, the majority of gunshot victims period should have still been alive.

 

[Deaf Smith]

As for as 'dead', the .22 lr. seems to be king. Did not say 'stopper' but I guess killer.

But then 12 gauges are kind of hard to conceal and they tend, shot for shot, to make 'em deader....

Deaf

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

the overwhelming majority of people who were shot by a 25 acp that i came across in my career were pretty dead.

Were you a coroner?

 

[heyjoe]

first reponder, later investigator, my investigations
often brought me to the morgue

 

[grampajack]

first reponder, later investigator, my investigations
often brought me to the morgue

For every body you saw in the morgue, there were 8-9 more gunshot victims who survived, and statistically speaking a good number of them were shot with mouse guns. Not saying at all that I would volunteer to be shot with a .25, but when you hear about failures to stop that were undisputedly the cartridge's fault, .22lr and .25 ACP seem to top that list. No one is arguing that any cartridge is a joking matter if you get shot with it. Heck, even BB guns can be dangerous, and I wouldn't volunteer to be shot with one of them either.

 

[heyjoe]

my post was an anecdotal response to the numerous previous anecdotal posts about people being shot with a .25 and not missing a day of work or getting mad and beating someone up. although gunshot wounds and deaths were incidental to my primary area of concern and investigation namely fires, fire related deaths and injuries, explosions, etc.and i never conducted a scientific study of the percentage of those who were shot and lived, continued to attack or resist, or who died, in my many years of response and investigations, i came across or aware of numerous people who had been shot with 25 acp. 380acp, 38, and 9mm who were quite dead and would definitely be missing their next day of work. I think these discussions get silly at times or downright ludicrous with the assertions that certain calibers are less effective than rocks, or harsh words. I was just providing a counterpoint based on my experiences.

 

[Fiv3r]

.25s are interesting. A fun little pill of a caliber. Personally, I carry a .380 pocket gun 90% of the time. While not a 9, .40, or .45, it's as much gun as I can dress around with my job. 7 rounds with a spare mag in my fifth pocket beats a sharp stick, I suppose.

Now my dad has carried a .25 junker in his truck for nearly 40 years. When he and my mom got married, my grandfather bought him the .25 to protect his daughter. Grandpa is a man of meagre means, and it was all he could afford.

That gun has never had a failure to feed, it's probably been cleaned as many times in 4 decades as we have had presidents in office, and a few years back my old man was still nailing a match box off hand from 10 yards using cheap ball ammo. I absolutely wouldn't want to be the guy he drew down on, because he most likely hit where he was aiming.

That said, is it a viable SD tool? Well, I dunno. He's never needed to draw it, let alone fire it. Still, as pocketable as today's. 380s are, the little .25 is more or less a novelty. Factoring ammo costs, you could purchase an entry level .380 and within 200 rounds be money ahead than if you purchased a $100 SNS in .25.
I'm not knocking the .25. It's put a lot of people in the dirt. Truth be told, if I were more of a man about town and an extra swanky fellow, I'd probably carry a neat little ornate back up-back up in .25. Maybe an engraved Baby Browning or a Beretta. Classy little gun nut jewelry. .25s always seemed like neat little "boss" guns to me. Absolute last ditch weapons to save your bacon until your own goons sporting shoulder holstered heaters chambered in .45 showed up to deal out the pain.

But in real life, .380 is as comfortable as I am willing to go.

 

[kBob]

Dang I get tired of this!

I really liked Col Copper, but that joke has gotten old.

I generally don't like Marshall and Sanow's work but sometimes "Hey, it's what we got" and it is better than "So this one time I heard for this dude" to some extent. Guess what? Depending on the brand even FMJ .25ACP seems to turn in between 22 and 25 percent ONE SHOT STOPS.

Here in Central Florida we had a case of a heavily armored cop doing a dynamic entry being shot once through the arm hole of his very nice mixed hard plate and soft body armor from about ten feet away and guess what? DRT. Does that one event mean the .25ACP is the best self defense round? Nope. Niether does "my cousin elmer had a .25 ACP bounce off his skull and this means the .25ACP is useless."

First MOST miscrients flee at the sight of a gun without any stopping to examine it for caliber or action type....for good reason.

Second very few folks that are shot do not immediately become concerned that they have in fact been shot and begin thinking how not to get shot again. For most that means tactic 1A1, "Run Away!" Others are shot multiple times before they can stop to think. A few, and we certainly hear about them do decide the best way to prevent being shot again is to continue the attack.

Folks have continued the attack after being hit with everything from .22 Short to (Yes , Virginia) the .50 BMG from Ma Deuce Herself on occasion.

There are A LOT of things I would rather carry than a .25ACP. But sometimes that is what you can get. Sometimes that is all you can carry.

I would rather say my wife or daughter carry a .32 ACP than a .25 ACP or a .38 Special Rather than a .32 ACP or a .45ACP rather than a .32 and well you get the idea.....BUT sometimes what folks feel like they CAN carry and use is a .25 ACP.

Rather than just attacking the .25ACP how about we concentrate on things that might make it better for folks that ARE GOING TO CARRY A .25 ACP DISPITE ANY GARBAGE WE PILE ON! (Yelling intentional, sorry Mods).

How about "IF you plan on using the .25ACP shoot it enough to be able to make multiple hits on an index card at three yards in under five seconds"

How about "If you are going to be limited to a .25 Auto, be certain it shoots EVERY TIME with what ever load you end up with."

How about "Even though it is small enough to just drop in a pocket consider a decent holster IN THAT POCKET so the gun will be constantly oriented the same way for when you need it in a hurry."

How about, "Think long and hard about how you intend to safely carry that little gun and still have it be useful when you need it."

Be helpful and not hurtful once in a while, OK? Stay on "The High Road."

-kBob

 

[Kendal Black]

Be helpful and not hurtful once in a while, OK? Stay on "The High Road."

I try to discourage people from carrying .22 rimfire and .25 ACP microguns. I think that is helpful!

But what I say is, keep shooting until the threat is neutralized or you are out of bullets. I am not optimistic as to which will happen first. Subtle, doncha know?

 

[MedWheeler]

(Re: post 64.)

kBob, I wish I could hit "like" multiple times.

 

[Jim NE]

General question to anyone who may know: What's the longest barrel length you've seen in a .25 auto? I'm asking because it would be interesting to know the ballistics of the .25 out of a long barreled gun. Even the mighty .22 magnum has it's muzzle energy halved (or worse) when going from a 4" to a 2" barrel.

 

[azrocks]

I like the round, and the guns I've come across chambered for it. I've yet to hear of any self-defense case in which a defender was subsequently inured or killed after shooting at an attacker with any firearm (by these cases, I'm referring to those in which the victim was targeted for rape, robbery, or encountered in a burglary, and not those in which the victim was targeted specifically for assassination.) Anyone here who has a story of a friend of a friend who shot a guy (or who was the guy shot) with a .25 will still have to admit that the person shot stopped doing whatever it was that got him shot in the first place.

And here's the result of a 10-second google search. Guy continued to taze a cop (with the cop's tazer) while he was shot by other officers. I'm guessing they weren't using .25s either:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...s-austell-officer-involved-shooting/78939450/

I was going to post more links, but it's becoming too much work. Try typing "continued fight after being shot" into your search engine of choice. The results should be illuminating. And that's mostly people not on drugs. Ever see someone going off the rails on PCP? You could mag-dump a .25 auto and it would only piss them off.

 

[22250Rem]

Rochester NY lost one of their police officers to a 25 ACP a few years back....... Officer was chasing down a perp in a foot chase and about the time he caught him the perp shot him at close range with a 25 ACP Raven. Hit him in the neck and came out the other side and IIRC took out an artery or something on the way through. There were other cops there, they were close to a hospital, they did everything humanly possible and they still lost that officer. I wish that perp would have thrown a rock at him or something. I still can't understand why the 25 ACP gets dismissed as basically being "useless" when even a 22LR at that range could have also proven fatal if it had hit in the same place. We should never get complacent about any firearm or cartridge.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Small caliber bashing threads are always interesting. It's truly amazing what comes out of some folks mouths.

I realize most people think of small pocket guns when this discussion comes up, but personally I wouldn't feel any less prepared with a PMR30 than with any of my 9's. For those that may not know that's 30rds of .22 magnum in a pistol with a 4"+ barrel.

Funny how you never see any volunteers when these threads pop up.

 

[Kendal Black]

Small caliber bashing threads are always interesting. It's truly amazing what comes out of some folks mouths.

I realize most people think of small pocket guns when this discussion comes up, but personally I wouldn't feel any less prepared with a PMR30 than with any of my 9's. For those that may not know that's 30rds of .22 magnum in a pistol with a 4"+ barrel.

Funny how you never see any volunteers when these threads pop up.

As I mentioned above, there was a .25 submachine gun sized like a real pistol, and I think it was probably controllable and better in that respect than abominations like the Glock 18.

No one's ox is being gored here. If anyone thinks it is hard to hide a J Smith or a Ruger LCP or guns of that sort, I will be happy to offer advice on concealment.

 

[.338-06]

Over the years I've heard and read a lot of stories about defensive use (and criminal) of .25s. They all seem to be, "shot once, didn't penetrate " or "got shot and didn't feel it". I never seem to hear about anyone getting shot 5 or 6 times and walking away. Actually, I've never read or heard about a case where there were multiple wounds from a .25, and I think I'd like to.

 

[azrocks]

Speedo66, I'm sure there are scads of similar cases in which LEOs have been shot with guns even more powerful than the .25 (a .45 in some cases!) and subsequently went on to effect the arrests of their attackers, and even testify against them later. LEOs, like many security officers, take upon a duty to continue the fight even after being shot or shot at (the security officer in your case, whether motivated by official duty or personal outrage, clearly was one of them.) The would-be rapists, robbers, and burglars I was referring to do not. These are actually the scenarios I meant, the ones in which a person shot was the one committing a crime against the shooter.

I've retyped my response about 50 times trying to phrase this in a manner that's not insulting, but I don't think it's possible. The best I can do is this:

You don't know what you're talking about.

Your perceptions of what the good guys are capable of, and what the bad guys aren't capable of, couldn't be any more flawed. And if you base your self-defense preparations on these flawed perceptions - as I know you do - then you're setting yourself up for a very unwelcomed surprise when & if you're ever faced with criminals that don't act the way you expect them to.

 

[MedWheeler]

azrocks, you quoted my posts, but I don't see where I said I was talking about "what good guys are capable of, and what bad guys aren't capable of."

What any of us "are capable of" is far from what we typically do. My perceptions of people's capabilities in extreme circumstances is far removed from my perceptions of how people usually act.

I already plan for people to act in a way I do not expect them to. Even so, should I ever be targeted by criminals, I will already be in for "a very unwelcomed surprise." How I plan for that is not something you could "know" even if you actually read every post of mine here.

 

[MedWheeler]

Jim NE writes:

General question to anyone who may know: What's the longest barrel length you've seen in a .25 auto? I'm asking because it would be interesting to know the ballistics of the .25 out of a long barreled gun. Even the mighty .22 magnum has it's muzzle energy halved (or worse) when going from a 4" to a 2" barrel.

Personally, I've never seen one with a barrel more than about 2.5 inches in length. There is a reason they're not longer. The .22 Magnum is a rifle round, as is the .22LR. These rounds use a powder blend designed to burn longer, to keep energy building behind the bullet during its longer travel down the barrel. Cutting the barrel length results in the bullet leaving the barrel before the powder has finished "pushing" it. In fact, if the barrel is shortened enough, much of the powder will burn outside of it as well, which is why you get such a good fireball with it, but such reduced bullet energy.

The .25ACP round, though, was actually intended for such short barrels, so it was developed using a faster-burning powder blend. The difference between the fireballs and reports of my Taurus PT22 and PT25 pistols, when fired side-by-side, is very noticeable, with the latter being much more "tame." This means that, if the barrel was greatly lengthened, the powder burn would "run out" before the bullet left the barrel, resulting in a loss of performance due to that loss of its power source and to friction with the bore.

So, a round developed for a long barrel can be compromised when the barrel is shortened, and a round developed for a short barrel can be compromised by one that is lengthened.