Thoughts on these new Sig military rifles?

[hoardingthemanual]

Seems like a rifle for a country without rampant inflation

 

[shoobe01]

Rifle seems fine. I think a little too quick a development, would like to see about 2 years of small scale fielding/improvements first. But SIG has a lot of clever people, it seems pretty solid. There were weirder competitors.

However, the requirement is as stupid as requirements get. In the latest wars we had to engage people far away, and over time (both near peer possibilities an IS affiliates getting better equipped over the past decade or so) it's been decided that the squad if not fire team should be able to effectively (injure or kill) engage threats with organic weapons (vs being able to call fires from the company mortars, air support etc).

The problem is: that has been turned into a requirement of A Rifle that can penetrate some specific amount of rifle plate at some range.

That is stupid. It means we end up with a heavy rifle that relies a lot on marksmanship, and cannot defeat things like cover. Now, the problem statement (armored baddies far away) is probably okay, but we should have done one of those open-house type requirements; bring all the good ideas with some proof you can make it, DOD funds development of a few of them, then we buy some (likely more than one) and maybe further fund longer-range development of promising-but–difficult ideas.

What ideas? That's the point. I dunno. There are all sorts of micro-missiles and smart mortar bombs small enough to be carried by individuals not much bigger than 40 mm as carried today. Drones with bombs? Resurrect XM25 with the next generation of tech (the sight alone has basically the same capabilities as the one on the XM5/7 and was 10x bigger just 15 years ago)? Etc.

LOTS of ways to kill folks 800 yds away other than "bigger rifle."

 

[entropy]

Looks like a good stopper. That cartridge seems potent.

Much better than the glorified .22 poodle shooter round.

How adorable, quoting your avatar like that. And you carried a variant of the M-16 when?
I will confess I did not carry one in combat, as many here who have appreciated it have, but have been issued an A1, and having worked on both the A1 and A2 in a professional capacity, I would not have felt undergunned carrying my M16A1 into combat.

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

They look to busy.

 

[zaitcev]

If the 6.8 gets full adoption, there is a conversion kit for the M240. Sig also makes the XM250 in 7.62 Nato, which I think will be what ends up actually being fully adopted after all this.

I expect them not to resist the siren song of overmatch, and try for a bigger machine gun instead. Something in a .338, like this:

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/inside-look-sig-sauer-mg-338-machine-gun/

 

[12Bravo20]

How adorable, quoting your avatar like that. And you carried a variant of the M-16 when?
I will confess I did not carry one in combat, as many here who have appreciated it have, but have been issued an A1, and having worked on both the A1 and A2 in a professional capacity, I would not have felt undergunned carrying my M16A1 into combat.

I used both the A1 and A2 in combat and I never felt under gunned with either rifle. Heck the Soviets copied us with their 5.54x39 and China has their 5.8x42.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

How adorable, quoting your avatar like that. And you carried a variant of the M-16 when?
I will confess I did not carry one in combat, as many here who have appreciated it have, but have been issued an A1, and having worked on both the A1 and A2 in a professional capacity, I would not have felt undergunned carrying my M16A1 into combat.

You never carried an M16 into combat but feel comfortable carrying one into combat.

How cute.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Call me when 1ID is getting these issued to the line units. It's probably just destined for the SOCOM/Ranger arms lockers.

 

[zaitcev]

You never carried an M16 into combat but feel comfortable carrying one into combat.

How cute.

I was issued an SKS and I would far prefer an M16.

 

[entropy]

You never carried an M16 into combat but feel comfortable carrying one into combat.

How cute.

I would not have felt undergunned, had you cared to read my post correctly.

 

[C-grunt]

You never carried an M16 into combat but feel comfortable carrying one into combat.

How cute.

What was your experience with the M16 in combat?

 

[21H40]

Looks like a good stopper. That cartridge seems potent.

Much better than the glorified .22 poodle shooter round.

I’m not sure if you’re trolling us or actually believe that the 5.56 is only good for varmints and poodles.

 

[12Bravo20]

The 5.56x45 round has been working in combat for the last 60 years. Plenty of enemy troops/combatants have died from being shot by 5.56x45.

 

[Slamfire]

Bud of mine used both the M14 and M16 in Vietnam and he preferred the M16 because the combat load was 400 rounds. When I asked him if he had ever shot 400 rounds in one engagement, he had!

Something to remember, Grunts seldom saw VC or NVA, typically they were shooting at bush and tree lines. And the VC and NVA did a great job of taking their dead with them.

One Vietnam veteran bud was on patrol, and his platoon set up an ambush. Bud said he was in the prone position, using his sling for support, when a VC carrying a AK47 at port arms came down the trail. Bud shot the VC at around 15 yards in the upper chest. Bud said the VC threw his AK down, and ran back up the trail! Considering Mr. VC might have angry friends, the platoon packed up and got the heck out of there, so they did not know what happened to the wounded VC.

That bud never cared for the 5.56 round.

 

[jdh]

Bud of mine used both the M14 and M16 in Vietnam and he preferred the M16 because the combat load was 400 rounds. When I asked him if he had ever shot 400 rounds in one engagement, he had!

Something to remember, Grunts seldom saw VC or NVA, typically they were shooting at bush and tree lines. And the VC and NVA did a great job of taking their dead with them.

One Vietnam veteran bud was on patrol, and his platoon set up an ambush. Bud said he was in the prone position, using his sling for support, when a VC carrying a AK47 at port arms came down the trail. Bud shot the VC at around 15 yards in the upper chest. Bud said the VC threw his AK down, and ran back up the trail! Considering Mr. VC might have angry friends, the platoon packed up and got the heck out of there, so they did not know what happened to the wounded VC.

That bud never cared for the 5.56 round.

Did he, perhaps, hit the one of VC's spare mags that they carried across their upper chest?

 

[CapnMac]

As long as that and the new MG use the same mag's , problem solved .

Using mags is a major limitation on a Squad Automatic Weapon, as your rate of fire is limited to by how quickly you can change mags (or, you have to dedicate a Squad member to being an AG and able to only keep feeding mags in.
Which is why, for about the last 50 years all SAWs are belt-fed. The belts are in boxes, typically any more, but, they are still belts.

The feed rate & energy required for de-linking is enough different from stripping mags as to have vexed all who have tried it. Knight's has an interesting take on a solution, but it's not cheap.

We are retiring 4 YEAR OLD Littoral Combat ships because the steel-hulled ships had bad transfer cases, which cost more to fix than a whole new ship, and the aluminum ones had uncontrollable corrosion issues (go figure).
Meanwhile, our geriatric cruisers are literally falling apart, with no real replacement on the horizon, and some of our subs have been waiting years to be drydocked for maintenance.

Uh, sort-of. All the LCS are aluminum hulled (required for the mandated 40kt speed that was never really achieved). First four made had internal corrosion at the engine mounts from using dissimilar alloys. First 10 are going to the scrappers for having issues with the engine beds for either the diesels or the gas turbines (failures were inconsistent, so all the Flight 1s are being yanked).

USN lost all of our true cruisers under WJC. And, due to budget cuts, the Ticonderogas (a stretched SpruCan) are just aging out. (Getting 25 years out of destroyer-sized vessels is tough sledding; the sea cares not a whit about any fantasies of the supremacy of Man's Engineering.)
The drydocking issue is a lack of drydocks of a sufficient size (seaside property is ludicrous expensive, and graving docks need a huge footprint). There's a ton of need for the larger drydocks, military and civilian--carriers are not small creatures and need drydocking around every four years. Which is complicated if you need a drydock to build a new carrier. Or you have an 800 foot long LHA in for her service.

 

[CCSIG]

From what I have heard about the new service rifle and its ammunition, it sounds like they were selected by a focus group of underage video gamers.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Uh, sort-of. All the LCS are aluminum hulled (required for the mandated 40kt speed that was never really achieved). First four made had internal corrosion at the engine mounts from using dissimilar alloys. First 10 are going to the scrappers for having issues with the engine beds for either the diesels or the gas turbines (failures were inconsistent, so all the Flight 1s are being yanked).

The Freedom-class LCS are steel hulled and suffered from grenaded CODAG combining gears. Independence-class LCS are aluminum.

 

[C-grunt]

Bud of mine used both the M14 and M16 in Vietnam and he preferred the M16 because the combat load was 400 rounds. When I asked him if he had ever shot 400 rounds in one engagement, he had!

Something to remember, Grunts seldom saw VC or NVA, typically they were shooting at bush and tree lines. And the VC and NVA did a great job of taking their dead with them.

One Vietnam veteran bud was on patrol, and his platoon set up an ambush. Bud said he was in the prone position, using his sling for support, when a VC carrying a AK47 at port arms came down the trail. Bud shot the VC at around 15 yards in the upper chest. Bud said the VC threw his AK down, and ran back up the trail! Considering Mr. VC might have angry friends, the platoon packed up and got the heck out of there, so they did not know what happened to the wounded VC.

That bud never cared for the 5.56 round.

Between good luck and sheer will to live, some guys can go a long wsys after taking egregious wounds. Some even survive.

In 2005 our snipers shot an IED switchman off a roof at a distance of roughly 200 meters. The 175 SMK 7.62 Nato hit him in the side of the lower chest (side profile shot) and exited the other side of his chest, which ripped open the side of the abdomen as well. Guy ran off the roof, through the building, outside, and part way down the block before he collapsed. He ran a good 150 yards. Even had a few feet of intestines hanging out of the exit wound.

One of the tanks shot a RPG gunner with 7.62 from it's coax. Guy was hunched over running away after firing the RPG and the round hit him in the lower back and excited one of his nipples. I can't remember which one anymore. Distance was about 100 meters. We found him laying in the grass a good 30 minutes after the ambush. He was still alive and moving around. He even got med-evac back at the FOB. I've heard both that he lived and died, so I don't know what happened to that guy.

Also that deployment I shot a guy at 400 meters with my SDM-R 5.56. My range estimation was off so instead of hitting him in the chest I hit him in the lower abdomen, just below the belly button. The round exited his lower back in two pieces. That shot dropped him instantly and he was completely out of the fight. Showed up dead at the hospital a couple days later.

Does that mean I think 5.56 is more effective than 7.62 Nato? Not at all. But it just shows that sometimes weird things happen. Usually a good COM shot to the torso with a rifle at reasonable ranges results in the guy falling down and immediately taken out of the fight. But that isn't always the case.

 

[12Bravo20]

Adrenaline can make people do weird stuff that they normally would not or could not do. I have also seen guys shot with 5.56 and 7.62x51 (from a M60) and keep fighting and/or run away while others drop dead instantly from either round. You just never know.

One of the few rounds that I have seen that drops people right away darn near every time is the .50 cal from the Ma Deuce or sniper rifle.

 

[21H40]

Adrenaline can make people do weird stuff that they normally would not or could not do. I have also seen guys shot with 5.56 and 7.62x51 (from a M60) and keep fighting and/or run away while others drop dead instantly from either round. You just never know.

One of the few rounds that I have seen that drops people right away darn near every time is the .50 cal from the Ma Deuce or sniper rifle.

We had a group of five people setting up an ambush on us, and an A10 was available to upset their plans. After a direct burst of 30m, three of the five got up and ran off. One made it 100 meters to a vehicle. Since then I have not counted on anything less than a hellfire rocket to completely stop a target.

 

[12Bravo20]

And that is why I stated "darn near every time" because there are no guarantees on the battlefield.

 

[Brian Williams]

this about updating weaponry.

 

[jlmwrite]

The XM-7 (originally touted as the XM-5) weighs only 13# empty, and the whiz-bang scope adds a bit more than a pound to that.

Why they would give up the 7# M-4 for that is open to speculation.

The ammo weighs the same as 7.62nato, more than twice the weight of 5.56nato.

You basically lose 55-58% of your ammo capacity (depending on whether you are measuring by volume or by weight).

Apparently you need four stars to be able to explain how this is "better."

Luckily, the contract is only around US$4.5 billion to supply around 2500 weapons (around 2100 XM-250 SAW and 400 XM-7 Carbines).

Yeh, glad I didn't have to hump one of these over some very rocky and sandy places.

 

[21H40]

I've been thinking about this round - and these platforms - and I feel like it has to come with a different focus on tactics, at least for the non-SOF guys.

The way we trained and fought over the last several decades had small arms to deal with individuals or small groups. Our big guns - from air support to artillery - are what we used to kill bigger targets. Us little guys would increase the lead density at the target's location, and our friends with the "real" guns would provide the fight ending BOOM or BRRRRP.

This doesn't sound like something that would work well in a suppressive fire role unless it's mounted to a vehicle or in a static position. In other words, this would have been a real game changer for SGT York. I feel like we would be better supported looking to something much more dramatic in small arms technology - like rifle fired EFPs* that melt through armor. Hopefully someone is also working on anti-drone 40mm EMPs** with air-burst capability. Drones concern me much more than a conscript at 800 meters. Even if the conscript has plate armor and safety glasses.
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*EFP = explosively formed projectile
**EMP = electromagnetic pulse