THR Group Project - PISTOL - Advanced Reloading Concepts and Discussions

[LiveLife]

Note: This thread discussion is specific to PISTOL calibers and carbine loads using PISTOL calibers.

DISCLAIMER: This thread may contain currently unpublished load data, lower than published start charges, OAL/COL exceeding SAAMI max length, modifying reloading/shooting equipment to the point of voiding warranty, etc. Member posted load data with finished cartridge dimensions for specific firearm may not work in your firearm. Use the information posted in this thread at your own risk.

Accuracy is everything and holes on target speak volumes - I heard/read this somewhere and it has been my reloading motto.

I recently hit a THR milestone of 10,000 posts and did some reflection of years I have lurked and participated as a member and thought about a group project that can help not only new reloaders but also experienced reloaders as well.

We already have the Reloading Library of Wisdom which is a general listing of different reloading topics but I am thinking of a group project thread that covers more advanced reloading concepts and discussions new reloaders can glean to warm up to and allow seasoned/match shooters to more freely discuss the finer details of reloading to squeeze out more accuracy from their loads.

Also, how many of you did not find the thread/post you were looking for when you used the search feature? I have and this thread can address that by listing direct links to specific threads/posts that answer to specific inquires using a linked post with multiple thread/post links that best correlate to the inquiries.

THR does attract many new reloaders and often answers to reloading questions that are too technical and more advanced reloading concepts/discussions have detracted threads. While this may not necessarily help beginners, it will help and is essential to advanced reloaders and match shooters needing to develop more consistent and accurate loads.

We can start off loosely and perhaps over time fine tune the thread so it becomes an indexed quick reference for us to use. After successful discussions, I can maintain an indexed summarized linked listings post with the necessary disclaimers Walkalong can be happy with.

This thread is for reloaders who enjoy the minute details of reloading to OCD levels in pursuit of accuracy. If you are that person, come right in and post away. If utmost accuracy is not that important and minute of gong is good enough for you, read on.

 

[blarby]

I think this is a fantastic idea.

Boy, where to start ? Barrel harmonics ? Precision powder measurements ? Bullet sorting ?

I think one of the harder things for the newer guys right now is powder selection, especially in rifle. At some point, 2500 fps is 2500 fps, but it becomes hard to split that harmonics hair without a wide selection of powders.

Press slop and bullet seating variables ?

Oy, this is gonna be a long thread !

 

[jwrowland77]

The fun thing about this thread is as many reloaders as there's out there, there's as many procedures for precision ammo.

It'll be neat to see how others do it and maybe pick up here and there some different stuff to test out.

 

[LiveLife]

That's what I am hoping for. An open discussion among reloaders so we can share usable information to develop accurate loads in the spirit of "Open Source".

I am open to discussing theoretical reloading concepts but prefer verifiable concepts (reloading concepts that can be verified by range test/equipment measurement). Just because I post plausible concepts that "sounds" good DOES NOT mean they are factual (my wife is laughing ). I think we should treat all concepts as untested until we are able to test the concepts in real life. Keep in mind that holes on target are more factual and instruments don't lie like we do.

These are just to get us started and we can sort them out later and properly index them once we successfully conclude the discussions. Feel free to toss out more topics you want to discuss or have questions about. This is your opportunity to approach topics you were afraid to discuss before.

- USING LONGER THAN SAAMI MAX LENGTH
- MAX VS WORKING OAL/COL
- WHEN TO USE SHORTER THAN MAX OAL/COL
- COMPENSATE FOR MIXED RANGE BRASS CASE LENGTH VARIATION (SEMI AUTO PISTOL)
- CALCULATING BULLET SEATING DEPTH TO DETERMINE MAX CASE FILL
- CALCULATING POWDER CASE FILL TO AVOID COMPRESSED LOADS (PISTOL)
- USING RESIZED/HAND PRIMED CASES IN PROGRESSIVE PRESSES
- HOW TO OBTAIN MORE CONSISTENT OAL/COL
- PRIMER SEATING DEPTH
- TUNING A BALANCE BEAM SCALE
- WHAT DIGITAL SCALES ARE NOT SUITABLE FOR RELOADING
- WHEN TO DOWNLOAD BELOW PUBLISHED START CHARGES

 

[LiveLife]

- USING LONGER THAN SAAMI MAX LENGTH (40S&W)

This post pertains to semi auto pistol, specifically 40S&W.

While SAAMI max for 40S&W is 1.135", if your barrel has longer leade/freebore and slower start of rifling, you may need to use longer OAL/COL to increase accuracy.

With most jacketed/plated/lead TCFP profile bullets, Glock/Lone Wolf barrels will accommodate 1.149" as max OAL. However, this length may not allow finished rounds to reliably slide up the magazine tube and 1.145" fed/chambered reliably for me as "working OAL". The longer than SAAMI max length will bring the bearing surface of the bullet (ogive) closer to the start of rifling and reduce high pressure gas leakage around the bullet to produce greater accuracy.

Repeated range test verified using longer than SAAMI max of 1.135" improved accuracy - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9362819#post9362819

With RMR's new HM 180 gr RNFP bullet, 1.150"-1.155" worked well as "working OAL" and produced accuracy of sub 2" at 25 yards - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9645513#post9645513

 

[LiveLife]

- COMPENSATE FOR MIXED RANGE BRASS CASE LENGTH VARIATION

Most auto loading pistol cartridges headspace on the case mouth. If you are using mixed range brass, resized case length will vary and this will result in different amount of bullet's bearing surface sticking above the case neck that will affect feeding/chambering when loaded close to max OAL/COL and also influence the distance bullet jumps before engaging the start of rifling to build chamber pressure.

No, I never have trimmed semi auto cases (and won't start now) and trimming cases is for another topic discussion.

When I tried to squeeze out more accuracy out of 40S&W loads, sample resized brass I measured varied about .002"+. Although 1.149" was the max OAL and 1.145" was the working OAL, I used 1.142"-1.143" as my revised working OAL to compensate for the variations in resized case lengths.

 

[popper]

my XDm 40 will take 1.15 with my TC FB mould, 165 gr HiTek coated, mixed brass & W231, one inch at 7 yds. I did get 3" @ 25 yds ONCE. Got a custom expander made, Lee flaring tool - flare by feel. Plunk test every round. Never chrony'd the load. XDs 9 does about the same with a 130 gr BB cast. 9 is just such a PITA to load.

 

[vaalpens]

bds, thanks for starting this thread.

I won't be able to contribute to the "Advanced" topics, but will definitely be following it and learning from it. The topics you have listed all deals with how to fine tune your loads to reach the accuracy you are looking for.

One topic I would like to see added will be how to evaluate your pistol loads. I would think you need to be able to accurately evaluate a load before you can fine tune it using your advanced topics. There has been a lot written on how to evaluate rifle loads, but not that much for pistol loads.

Thanks again for all the effort you put in to educate and help the less experienced handloaders.

 

[LiveLife]

< Head explodes >

While I titled this thread "Advanced Reloading Concepts and Discussions", I am not a bullseye match shooter whose reloading practices surpass what little knowledge I have in my head.

My reloading mentor was a bullseye match shooter and extreme measures they take to ensure consistency of their loads may not be practical for most of us who use mixed range brass. The extremes of their reloading practice was discussed in another thread which included using new brass to eliminate flyers - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9606640#post9606640

While my reloading budget is not small, it won't support the use of new brass. That's why the thread was titled "Concepts and Discussions" so we can delve into the theoretical notions of what variables would affect reloading consistency to produce more accurate loads applied to the practicality of using MIXED RANGE BRASS.

And that's where verification by range test comes in. We have talked about different reloading notions before in different threads but often they do not readily translate to range test as applied improvements to accuracy was not enough or overshadowed by other variables to result in smaller shot groups - that's why my motto is "Holes on target speak volumes".

Ultimately, if we cannot decrease the shot group size on paper, our time and effort spent on particular reloading practices, regardless of however admirable the theoretical concepts sounded, would be non-productive. And my goal for this thread is to collect as many of advanced reloading processes and practices that will decrease the shot group size on paper and properly index for easy reference. So we will be doing some myth busting along the way and deciding as a group what is feasible and what is not practical.

But I anticipate the discussions that will ensue until verified by range test would certainly be entertaining and amusing for many (probably for bullseye and benchrest match shooters).

So let the discussions of these concepts begin!

 

[LiveLife]

- COMPENSATE FOR MIXED RANGE BRASS CASE LENGTH VARIATION

Continued from post #6 - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9876958#post9876958

jell-dog and I have been exchanging PMs regarding this topic and we decided to share with the group.

bds, This post came @ the opertune time!

I will use the guidelines in your post to adjust my WORKING MAX COL to account for the difference in brass length.

I am loading 380 and 9mm today, and while I don't trim my pistol brass, I de-prime/size then sort into bins.

Example: I sort to length of 380 brass, +/- 0.001", middle length say @ 0.674", so all brass in that bin is +/- 0.001" to 0.674", then next bin middle length @ 0.671" and so forth.

I have large quantities sorted this way, I can then set expansion die once to the middle brass length and leave it till I run out of that bin full of brass.

I then set the taper crimp to only take out any belling that may remain after seating bullet.

Thank you again for starting this thread!

I think +/- .001" variance in case length is rather insignificant as bullet nose/ogive variance will affect OAL/COL by that much alone.

When variance is .002"+, I simply subtract that amount from my working OAL to compensate so my finished rounds will reliably feed and chamber.

At some point, reliability does trump utmost accuracy. I think you bring up an interesting solution option of sorting cases by length which I have not done for semi-auto cases but I think compensating for case length variance is easier solution for many reloaders using mixed range brass.

With that said, I have done bullet seating depth comparison range tests and next to powder charge variation, seating depth plays an important role in producing more consistent initial chamber pressure build/average max chamber pressures for more consistent muzzle velocities/lower SD number.

If you don't mind, I could post this PM exchange on the thread for others benefit.

Thanks!

bds,

By all means, post our PM exchange on GROUP PISTOL thread!

I settled on my way of de-prim/size/sort because I noticed an actual savings in time doing this all at the same time due to less handling of the brass.

I am thinking of also priming some of my favorite HS brass, then it would be ready to charge and seat bullets anytime I am ready to load using all the same HS.

Reguards,

JD

As our resident bullseye match shooter ljnowell verified, using same head stamp cases is one practice that will increase reloading consistency as same dimensions (in terms of case wall thickness) and quality of materials used for making brass will translate to more consistent chamber pressures. But for this topic discussion, let's preface the use of mixed range brass.

The theoretical concept question is "Given the variation in case length of mixed range brass, how do we compensate to maximize our accuracy?"

The point I was trying to make in my response to jell-dog was given the case length variation in mixed range brass, we need to balance reliable feeding and chambering while trying to minimize high pressure gas leakage by using the longest OAL/COL.

Problem: Often, reloaders simply use the max OAL that will fully chamber in the barrel and spin without hitting the start of rifling. This could be the working OAL and sometimes not and shorter OAL needs to be used to reliably feed and chamber from the magazine. This is the true "Working OAL" that should be used for powder work up but given the variation in case length from mixed range brass, how do we know if our dummy round (no powder/no primer) was the right sample to determine the longest working OAL?

Solution: - Use shorter resized cases or subtract the case length variation from longer case lengths.

- Take a sample measurement of your resized brass (if you are OCD, measure all of them ) to determine the range of variance. Why resized? Depending on the condition of brass/number of firings/amount of powder charge used, the resized case length will vary depending on how malleable/work hardened the brass is. For me, I have seen .002"+ to be the average of once-fired range brass.
- Use the shortest cases to make your dummy rounds to determine the working OAL as shorter cases will allow more of bullet nose to protrude above the case mouth to hit the start of rifling when chambered.
- Starting with max OAL, incrementally decrease the length until the dummy rounds reliably feed/chamber from the magazine.
- Or you can use the longest cases to determine the working OAL and subtract the case length variation to compensate.

 

[Blue68f100]

Can't help you with the 40cal. All my BE loads are for the 45acp, LSWC. Most of it will/should carry over though, both heads space off the mouth. Most of the effect on head spacing only shows up at the long line, 50 yrds. Then you must have a gun capable of being accurate at the 50yrds. You want minimal head space, 0.003"-0.005". Keep in mind that they only shoot reduced velocity, just enough to stabilize the bullet. Most guns have a generous amount head space. Gunsmith fit barrels can have a broad range unless specifically setup for BE. The mechanics of this is that the case is held in place by the head spacing not allowing the case to move when the FP hits the primer. The pressure expands the case sealing off with little to no case movement. Minimizing gas leakage, more consistent pressure. Then it's all about the bullet engaging the rifling. There are a lot of different angles used for leads. Jerry Keefer is the one that builds a lot of guns for the top shooters. He has done a lot of testing in this area. But you start spitting hairs at that level. He does say that most off this does not apply at the short line. He does run all of his brass through a comparator separating brass according to length. Knowing what he set the gun up for head spacing looking for the optimal length. Once fired at the long range all goes to short line or practice, since the brass work hardens, changing neck tension.

I did some testing last summer using a rest to see if brass length made a difference. It did, the groups were tighter with minimal head space. This was noticeable at 25 yrds. When compared to 0.015"+ head space.

With that said all testing should be done in ransom rest. I'm for one is not good enough to shoot free hand. Besides my eye sight not seeing the sights clearly any more. Thanks for the red dots....

 

[LiveLife]

- COMPENSATE FOR MIXED RANGE BRASS CASE LENGTH VARIATION

You want minimal head space, 0.003"-0.005".

I did some testing last summer using a rest to see if brass length made a difference. It did, the groups were tighter with minimal head space. This was noticeable at 25 yrds. When compared to 0.015"+ head space.

Thanks for the verification.

Your post confirms what jell-dog PMed as to sorting cases by length to address variation in case length from mixed range brass. But it is my thinking that if you are going to sort by case length, you should do it after the cases are resized. Would you agree?

 

[rfwobbly]

To get this done correctly, you're probably going to want to host it in a database or wiki type encyclopedia. In this type serial format a beginner might have to read 10,000 posts before he gets to his subject.

 

[LiveLife]

- EVALUATING PISTOL LOADS

One topic I would like to see added will be how to evaluate your pistol loads. I would think you need to be able to accurately evaluate a load before you can fine tune it using your advanced topics. There has been a lot written on how to evaluate rifle loads, but not that much for pistol loads.

I didn't know where to put this topic so I created a new topic. Let me know if this is what you had in mind.

Problem: How do we evaluate pistol loads?

Solution: Range test the new loads with known/reference loads.

We all have good and bad range days. Even for me, there are days when I can't get any decent groupings. So how can we tell whether it's the new load or the shooter?

I address this issue by using known accurate reference loads when I range test a new bullet/powder load using designated range test pistol.

- 9mm 115 gr, Winchester FMJ with 4.8 gr of W231/HP-38 @ 1.135"
- 9mm 124 gr, RMR HM RN with 5.2 gr of BE-86 @ 1.160"
- 40S&W, Montana Gold/RMR 180 gr FMJ/RNFP with 6.1 gr of Herco/BE-86 @ 1.142"/1.155"
- 45ACP, MBC 12 BHN 200 gr SWC with 5.0 gr W231/HP-38 or 4.0 gr Red Dot/Promo @ 1.240"

These are current reference loads I use as they average sub 1" at 15 yards and sub 2" at 25 yards (except for 115 gr load) using Glock 22 with KKM/Lone Wolf 40-9 conversion barrels, factory 40S&W barrel and railed 5" Sig 1911 XO. I have had other reference loads over the years but I designate the most accurate loads I can repeatedly duplicate as my reference load. (One exception has been the 115 gr Winchester load which I have used the past 20 years. Once my current supply of 115 gr FMJ runs out, I will be replacing them with new Winchester 115 gr hollow base FMJ or Berry's 115 gr HBRN-TP, whichever is more accurate)

When I range test a new bullet/powder load, I take along my reference loads and do comparison grouping. If I am shooting poorly that day, it will show with the reference loads. If the new load is shooting poorly, the reference load will still group well but the new load won't.

As for range test routine for powder work up, I will initially shoot 5+ rounds at 7 yards (and any QC rejects) to verify slide cycling/spent case extraction/ejection, then 5+ rounds at 15 yards and if accuracy is good, at 25 yards. I always prefer to verify accuracy on subsequent range trips with 50+ of the most accurate powder charge loads and repeat at 15/25 yards.

 

[Bullseye]

make use of a title

This would be good if people make use of a title by posting advanced with the cartridge type such as 45 acp FMJ within the title.
If I "search this thread" for 45 acp FMJ I should find what I need.

 

[LiveLife]

To get this done correctly, you're probably going to want to host it in a database or wiki type encyclopedia. In this type serial format a beginner might have to read 10,000 posts before he gets to his subject.

Yes, I addressed that in the OP. That's why I am planning to do an indexed summary post from time to time with each topic linked to a post with links to all relevent posts after topic discussion concludes.

We can start off loosely and perhaps over time fine tune the thread so it becomes an indexed quick reference for us to use. After successful discussions, I can maintain an indexed summarized linked listings post with the necessary disclaimers Walkalong can be happy with.

 

[LiveLife]

This would be good if people make use of a title by posting advanced with the cartridge type such as 45 acp FMJ within the title.
If I "search this thread" for 45 acp FMJ I should find what I need.

Great idea.

See, we are tweaking the thread with "group effort" already.

We'll work on the logistics later - like what sigsmoker suggested, we'll figure things out to our benefit.

I am sure you have accuracy related issues you were curious about or been pondering.

Ask away folks! You'll be amazed at the sheer depth of knowledge base THR members possess (in comparison, I know very little ... believe me).

 

[LiveLife]

Since we are working to verify accuracy with range test, here are supporting load development work up for my reference loads (5 round shot groups at 25 yards except for 115 gr FMJ which was at 15 yards):

9mm 115 gr Winchester FMJ with 4.8 gr of W231/HP-38 @ 1.135" - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7266869#post7266869

9mm 124 gr RMR HM RN with 5.2 gr of BE-86 @ 1.160" - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9655361#post9655361

40S&W 180 gr RMR HM RNFP with 6.1 gr of Herco/BE-86 @ 1.155" - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9645513#post9645513

45ACP MBC 12 BHN 200 gr SWC with 5.0 gr W231/HP-38 or 4.0 gr Red Dot/Promo @ 1.240" - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9415802#post9415802

 

[LiveLife]

OK, I added a few more topics and this is what we have so far:

- USING LONGER THAN SAAMI MAX LENGTH - Open
- MAX VS WORKING OAL/COL
- WHEN TO USE SHORTER THAN MAX OAL/COL
- COMPENSATE FOR MIXED RANGE BRASS CASE LENGTH VARIATION - Open
- CALCULATING BULLET SEATING DEPTH TO DETERMINE MAX CASE FILL
- CALCULATING POWDER CASE FILL TO AVOID COMPRESSED LOADS
- USING RESIZED/HAND PRIMED CASES IN PROGRESSIVE PRESSES
- HOW TO OBTAIN MORE CONSISTENT OAL/COL
- PRIMER SEATING DEPTH
- TUNING A BALANCE BEAM SCALE
- WHAT DIGITAL SCALES ARE NOT SUITABLE FOR RELOADING
- WHEN TO DOWNLOAD BELOW PUBLISHED START CHARGES
- EVALUATING PISTOL LOADS - Open
- IMPORTANCE OF NECK TENSION AND INITIAL CHAMBER PRESSURE BUILD
- POWDER CHARGE DROP VARIANCE
- WORKING OAL/COL VS CHAMBERED OAL/COL

 

[LiveLife]

- COMPENSATE FOR MIXED RANGE BRASS CASE LENGTH VARIATION

More PMs

bds, I'm not clear on the use of the phrase "minimal headspace 0.003" to 0.005" "

Does this refer to measurement off the lands?

Or the acceptable difference in case length?

Anyway, I do my case measuring AFTER resizing as the brass GROWS when resized.

Yes, I do believe Blue meant "off the lands" and .003"-.005" would be about comparable to what we could aim to achieve other than being able to feed/chamber from the magazine which will often make us shorten the OAL.

One thing I have noticed when I sorted by head stamp was that we can't tell how many number of firings the cases experienced when using mixed range brass. So having different work hardened brass negates the sorting by same headstamp somewhat. Like I posted, using mixed headstamp cases is not ideal if you are pursuing accuracy but it's not feasible to only use verified once-fired brass or new brass either.

So all we can do is continue to examine the options that will increase accuracy with mixed range brass.

I am tossing out theoretical concepts with some range test verified practices for us to discuss that we could incorporate into reloading practice to increase accuracy.

I would like to hear more from the bullseye match shooters what they have done with mixed range brass to increase accuracy as much as possible

 

[LiveLife]

- WORKING OAL/COL VS CHAMBERED OAL/COL
- IMPORTANCE OF NECK TENSION AND INITIAL CHAMBER PRESSURE BUILD

OK, here's a measurable reloading concept that may surprise many of you.

Most of us consider consistent OAL/COL and bullet seating depth directly related to building consistent chamber pressures for more consistent muzzle velocities and lower SD (Standard Deviation) numbers.

What if I told you what really matters is not the "finished working OAL" but the "chambered OAL"?

Problem: With mixed range brass of different quality and condition, we are more likely to experience greater neck tension variance and bullet setback. Yes, we all hope to experience zero bullet setback with our reloads but when the bullet nose slams on the feeding ramp, slight to significant bullet setback may occur and that's simply a part of reloading reality (I used to check neck tension by pushing hard on the bullet nose against the bench top but now measure the OAL reduction after feeding/chambering the dummy round from the magazine by releasing the slide without riding it).

I have experienced less bullet setback with lead bullets sized .001" larger than typical jacketed and plated bullets with jacketed diameter. This maybe due to greater friction with case wall from larger sized lead bullet producing greater neck tension which may explain why some lead loads are more accurate than jacketed/plated loads.

With some jacketed/plated loads, I have seen bullet setback as much as several thousandths or more. Problem is that the degree of bullet setback is not consistent with mixed range brass which means 10 chambered rounds may have 10 different OALs even though we work hard to ensure consistent OAL with the finished rounds. Of course, different OALs will result in different bullet seating depths which will then produce different chamber pressures affecting muzzle velocities and accuracy.

Solution: Some reloaders have addressed this issue by reducing the diameter of the expander or using little to no flare on the case mouth.

It is my thinking that if we can improve chambered OAL by improving neck tension to reduce bullet setback, this concept may result in accuracy improvement on par with powder charge consistency.

What do you think?

 

[popper]

COMPENSATE FOR MIXED RANGE BRASS CASE LENGTH VARIATION 40Sw. I don't. I load on a single stage press, mostly my cast FB TC, RCBS dies, custom expander. After a long discussion with an experienced reloader, most of the time it HS off the extractor! I size, then when expanding, sort hard & easy (wall thickness). Flare with the Lee tool, touch the mouth then add some handle movement to flare- practice. Range here just has carpet padded 4x4 for a rest, nothing else allowed. I rest in front of the trigger, two hand grip - XD 40. I US clean so PP are usually OK, just seat flush.
Obviously a turret press would need to sort case length for expanding.
Sorting for 9mm is worse as cases are all over the place dimensionally. Stuffing a 130/147 gr. cast into a case designed for 115 jacketed. Failed plunk test is the biggest problem.

 

[Blue68f100]

0.003"-0.005" is not off the lands. This is actually head space. LSWC are loaded with just a thumbnail thickness showing. This makes the OAL approx 1.250" for the 45acp. Bullet seating was done using a modified seating stem to contact the shoulder only, nose not being contacrted contacting. The brass was once fired WW that was the longest I had that fit the parameter. The top shooters use new Starline which runs full spec length. Powder charge was with 4.1gr WST. Note this is 0.3gr below starting minimum. This was used with both MBC BE #1 (200gr) and BE #2 (185gr). The barrel is a Kart Gunsmith fit barrel. The leads were also cut but I don't know what angle or depth. All the GS said he did was very minimal. What I did was supply him the dummy rounds of what I shoot. Which happen to Berry's 230gr RN, 185gr HBRH, and MBC BE #1 & #2 at the time.

David

 

[LiveLife]

- UNSORTED RANTING

After a long discussion with an experienced reloader

And that's why I started this thread. When members ask reloading questions, often a bunch of "RELOADING NOTIONS THAT APPEAR TO BE TRUE" get tossed out on the threads with a lot of chest thumping as "It has worked for me as long as I have been reloading so why are you trying to fix something that ain't broke?"

In the spirit of "High Road", on this thread I am hoping that we can have open discussions (without the chest thumping) to discuss these notions and see if we can do some "myth busting" to see if they are true by actually verifying with equipment/measurements and ultimately range tests to see if these notions result in increase accuracy/smaller shot groups on target.

An example.

For years I read multitude of digital scale bashing threads/posts where some members simply held the notions that digital scales were unreliable, drifted, affected by lights and not accurate enough. To verify these notions, I started the "digital myth busting" thread where THR group participation not only busted all these notions but I LEARNED a lot more about digital scales - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9591790#post9591790

So now, when a THR member posts a digital scale question and another member chest thumps and replies with a bashing post, we can simply link to the myth busting thread and the forum is freer of inaccurate posts.

JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE "EXPERIENCED" TOLD YOU SOMETHING DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE IF THAT PERSON HAS BEEN DOING IT WRONG ALL THESE YEARS.

and I posted:

Just because I post plausible concepts that "sounds" good DOES NOT mean they are factual (my wife is laughing ). I think we should treat all concepts as untested until we are able to test the concepts in real life.

So let us be "THE MEN/WOMEN OF THR" and do something different on this thread instead of rehashing what's been done on other threads:

- Conduct true open discussions
- Properly conduct root cause analysis and factually verify with instrumentation (where applicable)j
- And ultimately verify with range tests to see if "accuracy enhancing concepts" translate on paper as measurable decrease in shot groups.

 

[LiveLife]

- COMPENSATE FOR MIXED RANGE BRASS CASE LENGTH VARIATION

40Sw. I don't

But the discussion question is, "If you did compensate for case length variations, would it make a difference in accuracy?"

After a long discussion with an experienced reloader, most of the time it HS off the extractor!

That would be the extreme situation for shorter cases. For accuracy, I would prefer to have headspace off the cause mouth and I would cull cases that were too short to headspace off the extractor.

If this is not the case, let's discuss this further.

Sorting for 9mm is worse as cases are all over the place dimensionally.

jell-dog offered one solution option of grouping cases by different sorted lengths. My response was compensating for case length variation was an easier option that avoids sorting cases by length. I guess we could proceed with range tests to see if we can see difference between sorted cases vs compensated OAL (and I am talking about .002"-.003" case length variation here).

Any thoughts?

bds, I'm not clear on the use of the phrase "minimal headspace 0.003" to 0.005" "

I do believe Blue meant "off the lands"

.003"-0.005" is not off the lands. This is actually head space.

My apologies for assuming.