THR Group Project - RIFLE - Advanced Reloading Concepts and Discussions

[LiveLife]

Note: This thread discussion is specific to RIFLE calibers and carbine loads using RIFLE calibers.

DISCLAIMER: This thread may contain currently unpublished load data, lower than published start charges, OAL/COL exceeding SAAMI max length, modifying reloading/shooting equipment to the point of voiding warranty, etc. Member posted load data with finished cartridge dimensions for specific firearm may not work in your firearm. Use the information posted in this thread at your own risk.

Accuracy is everything and holes on target speak volumes - I heard/read this somewhere and it has been my reloading motto.

I recently hit a THR milestone of 10,000 posts and did some reflection of years I have lurked and participated as a member and thought about a group project that can help not only new reloaders but also experienced reloaders as well.

We already have the Reloading Library of Wisdom which is a general listing of different reloading topics but I am thinking of a group project thread that covers more advanced reloading concepts and discussions new reloaders can glean to warm up to and allow seasoned/match shooters to more freely discuss the finer details of reloading to squeeze out more accuracy from their loads.

Also, how many of you did not find the thread/post you were looking for when you used the search feature? I have and this thread can address that by listing direct links to specific threads/posts that answer to specific inquires using a linked post with multiple thread/post links that best correlate to the inquiries.

THR does attract many new reloaders and often answers to reloading questions that are too technical and more advanced reloading concepts/discussions have detracted threads. While this may not necessarily help beginners, it will help and is essential to advanced reloaders and match shooters needing to develop more consistent and accurate loads.

This thread is for reloaders who enjoy the minute details of reloading to OCD levels in pursuit of accuracy. If you are that person, come right in and post away. If utmost accuracy is not that important and minute of gong is good enough for you, read on.

 

[jwrowland77]

I think this is going to be a great thread.

I've been shooting F-Class for the last 1.5 years, and hope to learn some more about precision reloading, as well as add a bit to the discussion.

Using longer than SAAMI length.

Well, with my match loads, I currently use 3.000" for my .308. [emoji33] When I first started using this load, I was .02" off the lands which is where I always start and generally stay. If I wanted to stay there, I'd have to go .0245" further out due to barrel erosion over the last year (approx 2k rounds). I have my best accuracy at .02" off, BUT before I had the Hornady OAL gauge, I also find ok accuracy at the book normal of 2.800", just not F-Class good. Needless to say, I'll be getting a barrel change after a class in July.

One thing that it helped me with going with a longer OAL, is I was able to get 100%+ case fill which I get around 100% powder burn (based on QL 99.6%). It also gives me a slightly compressed load instead of a compressed compressed load.

I get great accuracy from using the longer OAL (generally 1/2moa out to 600) if I do my part.

 

[03fatboy]

Very good idea,I'm shooting in my first F-class match this Saturday,still alot to learn,
Probably won't contribute much to tread,but super good idea.

 

[LiveLife]

Duplicate / Thread clean up

 

[LiveLife]

Very good idea, I'm shooting in my first F-class match this Saturday

Thanks.

My intent for the thread is for match shooters to post reloading specific questions and advanced reloading techniques so members who may not compete can still glean useful information in a concentrated (and hopefully properly indexed/linked) thread for easy reference.

still alot to learn, Probably won't contribute much to tread, but super good idea.

You will definitely contribute by asking the questions. Like racing, what works on track will benefit cars on the road and processes/techniques that produce accurate match loads will often work to produce accurate plinking/practice loads. So ask away.

While I competed in pistol matches, I never competed with rifle other than what I did in the military (many urged me to do 3-gun match but life took priority - family/work/etc.). When I started reloading .308, I gleaned a lot of information from The Rifleman's Journal, website dedicated to 1000 yard long-range precision shooting. Although I will probably never try to group anything at 1000 yards (I do enjoy hitting large plate targets at 400-600 yards ), I have learned a lot of reloading processes and techniques that allowed me to produce more consistent .308 loads that I have trickled down to .223/.300 BLK loads.

 

[03fatboy]

Questions on load for 600 yard shooting

Just started to shoot 600 yards, here is some information on my rifle and load.

.308win
Mauser action
Winchester model 70 bull barrel 22 inch 1-12 twist
Boyd competition stock,glass bedded,full floating barrel
Timney trigger

Scope is 8x32x44
30 mm Leopold rings

168 gr. matchking
37.2 gr. IMR 8208
Hornady match cases
Neck sized with Lee collet neck sizer

I haven't ran the load over the chronograph yet.
I'm guessing around 2300-2400 velocity
It's on my list to-do
Don't know if I'm going to stay with this load or not.

The reason I used 8208 is availability when I was developing my load.
I did a full work up from starting load to max load and the 37.2 gr. shot the best, so I shot that in my first match.

One thing it didn't do was fill the case up how critical is that?
Is there a better powder out there to use?
Would a heavier bullet be better?
Better brass?
Neck turning, run out, primer,seating depth?

Oh by the way .20 of lands oal 2.295 using a comparator gauge
Sorted bullet's by length and weigh.

I'm probably forgetting something feel free to ask questions or comment,any help is appreciated.
Thanks

 

[LiveLife]

I started this thread at the recommendation of separating rifled related discussion from pistol related discussion.

Although I load .308, my knowledge base of rifle reloading is limited and will allow others more knowledgeable to comment.

 

[jwrowland77]

Just started to shoot 600 yards, here is some information on my rifle and load.



.308win

Mauser action

Winchester model 70 bull barrel 22 inch 1-12 twist

Boyd competition stock,glass bedded,full floating barrel

Timney trigger



Scope is 8x32x44

30 mm Leopold rings



168 gr. matchking

37.2 gr. IMR 8208

Hornady match cases

Neck sized with Lee collet neck sizer



I haven't ran the load over the chronograph yet.

I'm guessing around 2300-2400 velocity

It's on my list to-do

Don't know if I'm going to stay with this load or not.



The reason I used 8208 is availability when I was developing my load.

I did a full work up from starting load to max load and the 37.2 gr. shot the best, so I shot that in my first match.



One thing it didn't do was fill the case up how critical is that?

Is there a better powder out there to use?

Would a heavier bullet be better?

Better brass?

Neck turning, run out, primer,seating depth?



Oh by the way .20 of lands oal 2.295 using a comparator gauge

Sorted bullet's by length and weigh.



I'm probably forgetting something feel free to ask questions or comment,any help is appreciated.

Thanks

Hornady brass is fine. The one thing it boils down to is consistency from one shot to the next. Whether it be turning the necks that way they're all consistent and have consistent release. Sorting brass by capacity, uniformity primer pockets/flash holes.

Consistency=Accuracy in the F-Class game. Just try and make everything match...exactly. Put them into lots.

Also by doing so you'll find out what your rifle likes. Like my rifle likes bullets 178.4-178.5 the best as compared to 178.2-178.3.

 

[GW Staar]

BDS, A few months ago I bought a 1000 cases of LC .762 from Wideners. I knew it was probably MG brass, but I wanted to see what could be made of it, not for benchrest ammo, but for very accurate AR 10 ammo. (Remington R25 to be exact)

I bought an RCBS Case Master Concentricity Gage. I have and use a .308 small-base sizer, and a Gold Medal Seating die. I also use a Hornady OAL gage for keeping bullets off the lands a few thousandths, and an RCBS mic to set the sizer shoulder bumping. (Note: for the R25 the magazine length was way shorter than the lands, so that determined maximum OAL).

So with that I wanted to test the water. I blinged a 100 cases in a wet/stainless pin media tumbler, that left me with very shiny new looking brass.

The next step surprised me. Sizing! Yup it must have been MG brass. It was sizable but not easy. The usual process, using a little Imperial wax would not size this stuff. I think my brass, blinged as above created, even more friction than the MG (machine gunned) alone did. Long story short, RCBS lube pad was necessary, with a little brushed inside the necks. (gee, I've used Imperial for years)

Next came the brass neck runout test: Using the RCBS gage it ran from .002" to .008" using the sizer's included expander button.

So I removed the expander button and retested: The gage measured .001"-.002"

I won't go into the details here, but I reinstalled the button, resized a dozen cases 3 times each rotating each case 120 degrees, and remeasured. They all came out .001"!

Interesting, yes? I know resizing work hardens the brass, but I wanted to know.

So then, I was left pondering about the other options:

1. Bushing dies: Yes, they do away with the buttons that tend to yank shoulders out of concentricity, but they aren't perfect either. For one thing they can't size the whole shoulder, for another they are loose in the die so perfect runout is pretty elusive still.

2. Old time benchresters used to remove their expander buttons and hone the insides of a regular sizer's neck, to open it up enough to seat their bullets. It worked VERY well. Runout was mostly eliminated.

Only problem was that neck thickness had to be the same for all brass......or make another honed sized for each kind of brass you use.

Anyway, it seems that Forster provides a cheap $10 service if you buy their sizer's! They will hone the necks to any diameter......usually bullet diameter minus .002" plus 2x neck thickness. I aim to try that....or maybe hone my own small-base die. So using .308 bullets, the target diameter would be .306" plus neck thickness. Anyway, jury is still out....will let you know how it turns out.

3. The third option is using a Lee collet die.......who can tell us the pluses or minuses of that number?? I have never seen one......I do know that it only neck sizes, but perhaps it could be used after the small base die minus the expander button?


My experiment with this LC brass is ongoing....I have not shot any of these rounds yet, and only seated a few to test the effect of the Gold Medal Seater on near perfectly straight necks (.001") The result typically was to add a thousandth....finished rounds have been .002". Can't wait to shoot a few in my Remington R25!

Perhaps the above may jump start this thread with experiences of your own.

 

[jwrowland77]

Brass Weight vs Case Capacity

I wanted to do a little write-up tonight for the group with results shown.

Brass Weight vs Water Capacity

I shot a workup yesterday in .223 for my daughter using 69gr TMK, using mixed (year) LC brass with CFE 223, Varget and IMR 4895. Well, I had decent results yesterday as you can see in the pics. So I decided to do a little weighing tonight and just do a little further investigation. Targets were at 200yd, and rifle was shot off a bipod and rear bag. Rifle: Brand new Savage Axis Heavy Barrel straight out of box. Scope: Weaver 8-32x50

CFE 223 (Group .385" 0.18 MOA)

Brass weights: 93.2, 92.5 and 90.8. As you can see, the weights were all over the place.

Water Capacity: 30.8, 30.9, 30.8. As you can see, two were exactly the same which would explain the two holes right on top of each other.

Varget (Group .507" 0.24 MOA)

Brass weights: 92.2, 91.6, 92. Fairly close in weight.

Water Capacity: 31.1, 31.7, 31. Hole a little further apart but the difference could be shooter error.

IMR 4895 (Group .723" 0.35 MOA)

Brass weights: 92.1, 91.1, 92.0. Two fairly close and one a grain less.

Water Capacity: 30.9, 31.2, 30.8 this could explain two hole right on top of each other and one out in left field.

My humble conclusion: it is much more important to find the H2O capacity than it is to group like weights, as you can see by the results, especially in the CFE 223 group.

 

[03fatboy]

JW,
Could you please explain how you water weighting your brass.
Thanks

 

[jwrowland77]

JW,

Could you please explain how you water weighting your brass.

Thanks

Well, I deprime them first. Then I have these two plugs I bought that have o-rings on them from 21st Century (super cheap). I insert plug, weigh them together, write down that number. Fill with water, weigh again. The difference is your water capacity.

 

[03fatboy]

Thanks, l'll google 21st century and check out the plug

 

[jwrowland77]

Thanks, l'll google 21st century and check out the plug

Anytime. They have all kinds of precision reloading tools on there. I bought the plugs and closed the webpage, otherwise I probably would have spent too much. Lol

 

[03fatboy]

JW
I have the plugs on the way,you where right 21st is the Devil,but in and out and nobody got hurt.
Thanks again,think finding the water weights will help me with consistency in my loads,if I ever settle on one.

 

[jwrowland77]

JW

I have the plugs on the way,you where right 21st is the Devil,but in and out and nobody got hurt.

Thanks again,think finding the water weights will help me with consistency in my loads,if I ever settle on one.

Anytime. Told you they were cheap. It really does make a difference.

I do a lot of stuff to make each round is as consistent as possible. I mean, when you're trying to hit a 3" ring at 600yd, it helps. Most folks don't do it or see the need, but shooting great also involves confidence. More confident, the better. I have too many others to worry about that if I don't have to worry about where my rounds going to hit, the better off I'll be.

 

[WNTFW]

3. The third option is using a Lee collet die.......who can tell us the pluses or minuses of that number?? I have never seen one......I do know that it only neck sizes, but perhaps it could be used after the small base die minus the expander button?

Mr. Staar
What I do with one in .270 is resize necks on case that fit my rifle. I don't thing it will necessarily improve concentricity and much as not destroy it. It a collet outside and a mandrel inside. No lube and no pull on the case. It works well. Most of Lee's stuff float a little on the center, if I have that correct.

 

[LiveLife]

Contribution from rifle reloading newbie.

- BRASS CASE (Head stamp)

Repost from another thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9896140#post9896140

What is "commercial" brass?

To me, anything that doesn't have military/NATO marking.

I like buying "military" .308 brass with Lake City headstamp "LC" that has cross inside a circle for "NATO" spec ammunition. The crimped primer pocket tells me it's once-fired.

The difference between "military" vs "commercial" is thicker wall of military brass that will reduce internal case volume and I will use less powder charge at the top than what was developed for thinner walled commercial brass. But I found this is not always the case as when I sort resized/trimmed brass, sometimes I find military brass to weigh comparable to commercial brass so using water to determine the internal volume is the only sure way to ensure consistency.

With .223/5.56 brass with crimped primer pockets, I don't think this is the case and I don't separate military brass with NATO markings from commercial brass and use the same powder charge as commercial brass.

 

[TBJK]

This thread has definately got my attention. I have been reading & watching precision shooting in the hopes of one day shooting out to 1500 yards or more & hitting the target as intended hopefully on the first shot if I get my math all right.

 

[LiveLife]

- LONG-RANGE/1000 YARD PRECISION RELOADING/SHOOTING

I have been reading & watching precision shooting in the hopes of one day shooting out to 1500 yards or more & hitting the target

Are you trying to "group" your shots or just shooting for "minute of gong" at 1500+ yards?

Like you, when I started reloading for .308, I wanted to learn as much as possible. A THR member suggested I check out "The Rifleman's Journal" which is a dedicated website for long-range/1000 yard precision rifle match shooting and reloading specific to NRA F-Class and Palma matches - http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/10/cartridges-loading-308-for-palma.html

While I will never fully utilize the huge volume of information posted on the website, I gleaned enough to improve my .308 reloads to decrease shot group size at 100 yards and have more fun hitting large steel targets out to 400-600 yards.

Get a large glass of your favorite beverage and get comfortable and start checking out "Reloading" section of "Index of Articles" - http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/p/articles-index.html

 

[climbnjump]

jwrowland77, what is the name of the app you have screen shots of in post #10?

Thx.

 

[jwrowland77]

Ballistic AE. I have it on my iPad and iPhone

 

[TBJK]

My intention is hitting as accurate as I can. I would love to hit a pineapple/pineapples with tannerite at extreme distances. I have a rather bad grudge against pineapples, as it a fruit of great expense to me & my wife. IE my wife was cutting a pineapple & dropped the knife into her leg. It took about 9 surgeries & 16 months to heal, the details are for another thread tho.

 

[popper]

I have to resize the MG LC brass 2 times with RCBS lube to get it right for my ar10, SB die. 243,30/30 Lee collet just doesn't work.

 

[LiveLife]

- EVALUATING CARBINE/RIFLE LOADS

These NRA American Rifleman links have carbine/lever action/rife articles and many have 50/100 yard accuracy and chrono data for reference.

When conducting load development and range tests, the shot group/chrono data should help evaluate the accuracy of your loads for particular firearm you are using.

Semi-auto pistol/carbine - http://www.americanrifleman.org/handguns/semi-auto/

Lever-action - http://www.americanrifleman.org/rifles/lever-action/

Autoloading rifle - http://www.americanrifleman.org/rifles/semi-auto/

Bolt-action rifle - http://www.americanrifleman.org/rifles/bolt-action/