Top loads using black powder in modern large caliber revolvers

[hawg]

Found it. It was an 1873 cap and ball and he egg shaped the firing pin hole so he could use a standard 1873 hammer and cylinder. The hole was so big it deprimed the .45 Colt cases and blew the hammer back and the gun went full auto.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Somebody on another forum 7 or 8 years ago IIRC had that result.

I don't doubt that. I guess with some very careful load development, and a light main spring, one could even get some reliability. I'd also guess that it would be very hard on the action. Or, I wonder it it would just go full-auto, unless the trigger had some kind of disconnector on it. ? Yeah I think it would.

 

[woodnbow]

In my opinion and it's worth exactly what you paid for it is a wad may increase revolver accuracy but it would take a bench to prove it. Lead in something like a 45-70 is hard enough it doesn't need a wad. Go soft here and you're going to lead the barrel big time.

Your opinion here carries more weight than you probably realize. You’re one of the OG’s…

So, anyway, yes, I do work from a bench until I know what potential a revolver or rifle has and what the preferred loads are. These cap guns, and I’m including the Colts here (tiny sights be damned) because it applies to them as well, are capable of accuracy on a par with the best cartridge guns. I sell the ones that don’t realize that accuracy in my hands, from my bench.
WRT rifles and leading with soft lead, I always used 30:1 or even 20:1 in small bore rifles like the Gibbs, Volunteer, and the hot rod
Hawkens and Renegade if I suspected it would exceed 1300 fps or so. I use the card wads in these guns no matter what alloy I’m using, never seen less accuracy from the cards and often get best accuracy only with the cards. Lube makes a difference too. Idaholewis suggested the addition of Stihl HP Synthetic oil to the lube mix and son of a gun if it doesn’t substantially reduce or eliminate leading in such rifles.
I also have a very nice ROA that has been a terrible gun for leading. The bore looks and feels smooth but even round ball over 25 grains of 3f would leave streaks of lead. Not with the magical Stihl oil though. Crazy good stuff.

That's right, the rear of a cap-N-ball cylinder is "vented". I bet there would be some serious hammer blow-back too.

I’m using only 4f and heavy loads with a 200 grain bullet in one Colt 1860. It’s an experiment to see if I can cause any erosion in the nipples orifice. These are stainless and supposed to be a tough alloy, in a small bore 40 caliber rifle they will eat 40 full power rounds and smile but revolvers are inlines and I wonder if they’re more susceptible to erosion. As long as the orifice is something under .030 or even .032 or so I don’t think any blackpowder load will cause blowback.

Found it. It was an 1873 cap and ball and he egg shaped the firing pin hole so he could use a standard 1873 hammer and cylinder. The hole was so big it deprimed the .45 Colt cases and blew the hammer back and the gun went full auto.

I remember that. I think the guy was a felon or something and trying to circumvent the law… apparently the laws of physics are not so easily circumvented… what a maroon.

 

[hawg]

I remember that. I think the guy was a felon or something and trying to circumvent the law… apparently the laws of physics are not so easily circumvented… what a maroon.

Not the conversation I'm talking about. He's not a felon. He's a SASS shooter and has plenty of cartridge guns. There used to be a lot of talk on various forums about converting them. Most people thought all you had to do was get a hammer and cylinder for a cartridge firing 73 but the C&B 73 has an offset firing pin. On this particular forum somebody said something about enlarging the firing pin hole to accept the new hammer. I said it wouldn't work because it would decap the cases when it fired. That's when he came in and said he tried egg shaping the hole and not only did it decap the cases it blew the hammer back and if you still had the trigger pulled it would keep firing.

 

[AntiqueSledMan]

On my Pietta 1873 BP revolver, the cylinder diameter is 1.680".
The length, including the ratchet is 1.875".
The firing pin is an oversized beast, with 1/2 of it shaved off like the one in the picture below.
The frame has an oval for the 1/2 circled firing pin to go through, but it's offset to one side.
There is no way one could simply open the passage up more centered and expact a primer to stay in the case.

AntiqueSledMan.

 

[hawg]

On my Pietta 1873 BP revolver, the cylinder diameter is 1.680".
The length, including the ratchet is 1.875".
The firing pin is an oversized beast, with 1/2 of it shaved off like the one in the picture below.
The frame has an oval for the 1/2 circled firing pin to go through, but it's offset to one side.
There is no way one could simply open the passage up more centered and expact a primer to stay in the case.

AntiqueSledMan.

It can be done but you have to weld up the firing pin hole and drill it in the correct location. Once done there is no going back to C&B by swapping hammers and cylinders.

 

[Onty]

Just stumbled upon very interesting thread "Full Power 45 Colt Loads" on https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=57532.40 , and post by medic15al, Reply #42 on: June 04, 2016, 01:07:18 PM:

The load is 40 grns of FFFG (3F) Olde Eynsford under a 250grn PRS Big Lube bullet. All loads fired 10 feet from chrono.

Uberti 7 1/2 Bbl:

1. 1028
2. 1049
3. 1018
4. 1026
5. 1010
Average 1026.2

I was looking for a website biglube.com, to show the picture or illustration of PRS Big Lube bullet, but, unfortunately, I cannot open it. This is the only one I could find:

From https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=23431.0

Anyhow, if medic15al could squeeze under PRS Big Lube bullet, 40 grains of 3FG, if using bullet 45-300-BP-2 I designed (see post #24), because it is shorter from crimp groove to the bottom for about .035", that would mean additional 2.5 grains of black powder. Not much, but every grain more counts.

It would be interesting to see how much velocity 45-300-BP-2 will have under 42.5 grains of black powder out from revolver with 7.5" barrel?

Is any program that could calculate muzzle velocity from revolver using black powder?

 

[armoredman]

This is fascinating, and well timed, as my son was just yesterday asking about using my New Model Army with a conversion cylinder to shoot 45 Colt black powder loads.
I have loaded smokeless for about 20 years, so I'm still well into the learning curve. Only cartridges I've ever done in the Holy Black is paper ones for my CB revolvers, and...the jury is still out on that one. Just because I haven't really mastered it.
So, the question I have after reading all this is first - do I need a separate powder measure? I am guessing that would probably be a good idea. Second, what the heck is a vibratory table? Sounds like a repurposed waa-waa bed from the NoTel Motel.
Might be easier to just ask - what tools do I need to get in addition to my normal loading tools? We are still in the "this would be cool" talking about it stage.

 

[woodnbow]

Not the conversation I'm talking about. He's not a felon. He's a SASS shooter and has plenty of cartridge guns. There used to be a lot of talk on various forums about converting them. Most people thought all you had to do was get a hammer and cylinder for a cartridge firing 73 but the C&B 73 has an offset firing pin. On this particular forum somebody said something about enlarging the firing pin hole to accept the new hammer. I said it wouldn't work because it would decap the cases when it fired. That's when he came in and said he tried egg shaping the hole and not only did it decap the cases it blew the hammer back and if you still had the trigger pulled it would keep firing.

Uberti also began using a shorter cylinder in the later years of this gun so that a cartridge cylinder could not fi into the gun without modifying the barrel and forcing cone.

 

[Onty]

Second, what the heck is a vibratory table? Sounds like a repurposed waa-waa bed from the NoTel Motel.
Might be easier to just ask - what tools do I need to get in addition to my normal loading tools? We are still in the "this would be cool" talking about it stage.

Vibratory table is a device that is used to compact loose material like a sand, soil, metal dust, etc, when it is in a jar or pot. It could be also used for cleaning with some kind of abrasive.
In our case for compacting black powder in brass;

MODEL JT (JOGGER VIBRATING TABLES)

Need a small vibrating table for bulk processing? Contact Best Processing Solutions for jogger tables to vibrate, settle and compact powdered products or liquids in all types of molds, containers, mixes and more. Also used to remove air bubbles.

www.bpsvibes.com

It consist of a top plate on rubber or spring mounts and attached electric motor with eccentric weight. When it rotates makes vibrations. Also, it could have a pulsating electromagnet that does the same.

 

[hawg]

This is fascinating, and well timed, as my son was just yesterday asking about using my New Model Army with a conversion cylinder to shoot 45 Colt black powder loads.
I have loaded smokeless for about 20 years, so I'm still well into the learning curve. Only cartridges I've ever done in the Holy Black is paper ones for my CB revolvers, and...the jury is still out on that one. Just because I haven't really mastered it.
So, the question I have after reading all this is first - do I need a separate powder measure? I am guessing that would probably be a good idea. Second, what the heck is a vibratory table? Sounds like a repurposed waa-waa bed from the NoTel Motel.
Might be easier to just ask - what tools do I need to get in addition to my normal loading tools? We are still in the "this would be cool" talking about it stage.

Reloading with bp is pretty much the same as with smokeless. Just fill the case and either use a drop tube or vibrate it etc. to get the powder to settle. Personally I never did either one with pistol cartridges. You can use the same measure. People will probably start yapping about bp and plastic causing static electricity but static electricity won't set off bp. I've used a Hornady Lock N Load measure with a plastic hopper for many years.

 

[woodnbow]

Just stumbled upon very interesting thread "Full Power 45 Colt Loads" on https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=57532.40 , and post by medic15al, Reply #42 on: June 04, 2016, 01:07:18 PM:

The load is 40 grns of FFFG (3F) Olde Eynsford under a 250grn PRS Big Lube bullet. All loads fired 10 feet from chrono.

Uberti 7 1/2 Bbl:

1. 1028
2. 1049
3. 1018
4. 1026
5. 1010
Average 1026.2

I was looking for a website biglube.com, to show the picture or illustration of PRS Big Lube bullet, but, unfortunately, I cannot open it. This is the only one I could find:

From https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=23431.0

Anyhow, if medic15al could squeeze under PRS Big Lube bullet, 40 grains of 3FG, if using bullet 45-300-BP-2 I designed (see post #24), because it is shorter from crimp groove to the bottom for about .035", that would mean additional 2.5 grains of black powder. Not much, but every grain more counts.

It would be interesting to see how much velocity 45-300-BP-2 will have under 42.5 grains of black powder out from revolver with 7.5" barrel?

Is any program that could calculate muzzle velocity from revolver using black powder?

This one may get you close. Be aware that the cylinder gap on a revolver will cause a pressure and velocity loss. I’ve heard numbers like 50 fps per .006” or something like that. Nobody knows for sure and the only data I’ve ever seen was compiled using modern propellants in cartridges like the .357 magnum. Anyway… here you go…

P-Max black powder internal ballistics

 

[woodnbow]

This one may get you close. Be aware that the cylinder gap on a revolver will cause a pressure and velocity loss. I’ve heard numbers like 50 fps per .006” or something like that. Nobody knows for sure and the only data I’ve ever seen was compiled using modern propellants in cartridges like the .357 magnum. Anyway… here you go…

P-Max black powder internal ballistics

This might represent the Hazard cartridge from the 1860’s…

 

[Onty]

This one may get you close. Be aware that the cylinder gap on a revolver will cause a pressure and velocity loss. I’ve heard numbers like 50 fps per .006” or something like that. Nobody knows for sure and the only data I’ve ever seen was compiled using modern propellants in cartridges like the .357 magnum. Anyway… here you go…

P-Max black powder internal ballistics

MANY THANKS SIR!!! This is just fantastic website with black powder calculator. I tried to see what we can get from 45 Colt, stuffing 42.5 grains of FFFG, behind 300 grain bullet, assuming that I am correct in my posts #24 and #57, and this is the result:



If I have it right, "Barrel length" in calculator for large frame Ruger NMBH 45 Colt, with 7.5" barrel, will be actually barrel plus cylinder; about 9". However, taking in account barrel to cylinder gap, I guess we can use in calculator 7.5" barrel length.

Anyhow, if Lyman 454424 bullet (about 260 grains), at 1050-1100 fps will go right through full grown cow https://www.levergunscommunity.org/viewtopic.php?t=19554 , there is no doubt that 45-300 grains bullet at 1040 fps will smash some rocks after exiting.

All I can say is that 45 Colt, when properly loaded, even with black powder, is all shooters need in lower 48 and Europe. No wander that this cartridge still fascinates and serves so well, so many, even century and a half after it was created.