Duke Junior
member
Off topic, but I must say, TexasRifleman, I think that is one sweet picture.
Agreed.And nowhere near the red line.What a car!
Traffic Stop WHY Is It Safer To Inform
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Agreed.And nowhere near the red line.What a car!
cassandrasdaddy
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Again, the police need to have some kind of reason to search your car, like visibly seeing drugs or something illegal in the car, otherwise, they cannot search your car without your permission, and I don't give permission. Think of it as an extension of your house.
good luck using that community college jd
good luck using that community college jd
wyocarp
Member
When I got stopped recently, the patrolman knew I had a permit as he walked up to the truck, assuming that I was the one driving the truck. He had to have been shocked by the sheer number of guns he saw when he arrived at the window though. He did ask if there were more, to which I answered, "oh yeah." He watched me go right passed my strong side pistol which was right by my rear pocket. I even had to adjust my gun to get my wallet out and not a word was said.
I later asked him about it and he said that he figured that if I was going to shoot him I would have already done so and that it was Wyoming and everyone has guns.
If I were a cop, I would assume that everyone had a gun and then the surprise would be just the opposite.
The only good thing about telling them that I can figure out is that maybe if you weren't too out of line, that they might cut you some slack for being a more upstanding citizen.
I later asked him about it and he said that he figured that if I was going to shoot him I would have already done so and that it was Wyoming and everyone has guns.
If I were a cop, I would assume that everyone had a gun and then the surprise would be just the opposite.
The only good thing about telling them that I can figure out is that maybe if you weren't too out of line, that they might cut you some slack for being a more upstanding citizen.
My buddy is a retired NYPD detective and is currently a patrol deputy here in Florida. Back in the early 80s when he was still in uniform he and his partner did a car stop in midtown Manhattan. He was talking with the driver and his partner was standing by the passenger side window. The motorist reaches out to give my friend his paperwork and the butt of his holstered Ruger peeked out from under his shirt. My friends partner yells GUN and has his service revolver aimed at the guy. My friend say's relax he has a carry permit and is a PI. The partner saw the gun a second before my friend was going to tell him the guy is a PI and armed. Turns out the guy was the brother of a NYC judge. I guess that is why he got a NYC carry permit!
Old Dog
Member
I find it strangely amusing that certain THR members seem to obsess so much about getting pulled over (while they're packing) for traffic stops by the police, feel the need to post so often about the apparent complexities of this process and constantly wonder publicly what the best course of action is ... all the while trying to manipulate discussion to "prove" that your average cop doesn't approve of citizens carrying firearms and does his level best to make every citizen-LEO encounter as painful as possible for Joe Sixpack who is licensed to carry a concealed handgun.
Me, I find that observing traffic laws works best, and in the unlikely event that I am pulled over, common courtesy seems to work wonders.
'Course, I guess I just live in a state with an alarming shortage of those rogue cops that enjoy hassling citizens who happen to be exercising their Second Amendment rights.
Me, I find that observing traffic laws works best, and in the unlikely event that I am pulled over, common courtesy seems to work wonders.
'Course, I guess I just live in a state with an alarming shortage of those rogue cops that enjoy hassling citizens who happen to be exercising their Second Amendment rights.
76shuvlinoff
Member
Well I can't really argue with that.
There are two things you need to know when you decide whether to disclose your CCW status to an officer.
1. Is is legally required that you disclose? (Note that you need to check OTHER state laws when you travel outside your home state as you always need to follow the law of the state you are in at the time).
2. Will your CCW status come up on the computer when the officer runs your vehicle registration OR Driver's License through the system?
If your CCW status will come up through the computer, I highly recommend you disclose at the start of the stop. If you don't, the officer will be informed of your permit when he runs your info through and will then wonder why you didn't tell him and WHERE IS THE GUN?
If you aren't required to legally disclose, and your CCW status isn't revealed by the computer, then it's up to you. You can make good arguments either way, so just think it through and decide what's best for you. Know that if you decided NOT to disclose, and the officer somehow sees or detects your gun, he's going to be VERY unhappy and that is going to make you VERY unhappy until everything is explained and worked out.
1. Is is legally required that you disclose? (Note that you need to check OTHER state laws when you travel outside your home state as you always need to follow the law of the state you are in at the time).
2. Will your CCW status come up on the computer when the officer runs your vehicle registration OR Driver's License through the system?
If your CCW status will come up through the computer, I highly recommend you disclose at the start of the stop. If you don't, the officer will be informed of your permit when he runs your info through and will then wonder why you didn't tell him and WHERE IS THE GUN?
If you aren't required to legally disclose, and your CCW status isn't revealed by the computer, then it's up to you. You can make good arguments either way, so just think it through and decide what's best for you. Know that if you decided NOT to disclose, and the officer somehow sees or detects your gun, he's going to be VERY unhappy and that is going to make you VERY unhappy until everything is explained and worked out.
cassandrasdaddy
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"Know that if you decided NOT to disclose, and the officer somehow sees or detects your gun, he's going to be VERY unhappy and that is going to make you VERY unhappy until everything is explained and worked out."
but thats what some folks love being able to boldly "put one over on the man" and in real life too! not a net fantasy. plus when/if it goes awry they can whimper and whine for decades about it. play the oppresed card at starbucks or nrxt time the wto comes to town it gives em cred for picking up hot girls in black hoodies
but thats what some folks love being able to boldly "put one over on the man" and in real life too! not a net fantasy. plus when/if it goes awry they can whimper and whine for decades about it. play the oppresed card at starbucks or nrxt time the wto comes to town it gives em cred for picking up hot girls in black hoodies
FourTeeFive
Member
That is one of my biggest fears.
jakemccoy
Member
Yeah, an important point is that there's a reasonable chance the cop won't be totally safe with my gun. A horrible scenario is a negligent discharge that leads to an injury and other chaos.
If I disclose and the cop makes the decision to handle my gun, there's really nothing I can do about it. It's not like I can take control and deny the officer. I'm subject to whatever the officer has in store for me and my gun at that point. Saying something like "uh, no don't touch my gun" is not going to work. There are so many unknown scenarios that may play out that I'm not inclined to disclose unless necessary.
It's great if you live in Mayberry where the birds are always chirping and everything is reasonably logical and calm. Where I live, things have been known to go awry occasionally. If someone wants to handle my gun, I have a policy of assuming people (including cops) are stupid until proven otherwise. It's really not hard to prove minimal intelligence, but the proof is necessary. Before a cop actually handles my gun, there's not enough time at a traffic stop to find out if the cop has the minimal intelligence.
If I disclose and the cop makes the decision to handle my gun, there's really nothing I can do about it. It's not like I can take control and deny the officer. I'm subject to whatever the officer has in store for me and my gun at that point. Saying something like "uh, no don't touch my gun" is not going to work. There are so many unknown scenarios that may play out that I'm not inclined to disclose unless necessary.
It's great if you live in Mayberry where the birds are always chirping and everything is reasonably logical and calm. Where I live, things have been known to go awry occasionally. If someone wants to handle my gun, I have a policy of assuming people (including cops) are stupid until proven otherwise. It's really not hard to prove minimal intelligence, but the proof is necessary. Before a cop actually handles my gun, there's not enough time at a traffic stop to find out if the cop has the minimal intelligence.
deaconkharma
Member
recent stop
SC law:
K) A permit holder must have his permit identification card in his possession whenever he carries a concealable weapon. When carrying a concealable weapon pursuant to Article 4 of Chapter 31 of Title 23, a permit holder must inform a law enforcement officer of the fact that he is a permit holder and present the permit identification card when an officer (1) identifies himself as a law enforcement officer and (2) requests identification or a driver’s license from a permit holder.
CWP status not tied with license or plates here in SC
I have always identified myself and had the police officers visibly relax and even tend to treat me better than your average Joe. One exception, as I have posted in a prior thread, I was stopped for a seatbelt violation (it's a primary stopping offense here in SC now- nevermind individual freedoms, personal choice, and such) anyway, I identify as usual and have all necessary paperwork handy. I literally am shocked, like I was slapped in the face, that the officer asks me to step to the back of the car to be disarmed. I am carrying a P3AT, in the little zipper sleeve thingy it comes with, in my right front pocket and I am not real comfortable with the guy fishing around in there. As I stated in the post regarding this earlier, I felt somehow my status as a "good guy" was cheapened. I felt less than enthused to identify myself ever again whether it be the embarrassment of having to be handled like a danger, or had my pockets dug in like a dealer, or the fact he could've touched off a round in my leg or foot. To me the firearm was secure and safe. Anytime it comes out, I see as dangerous. Anyway to NOT flame the officer or be perceived as anti-leo the guy was extremely nice about it and made a concession to disarm me in the crook of my door to help hide the disarmament from the abundant traffic of most of my neighbors getting off of work. Still, it looked like a drug dealer getting searched. He was very young and very new,I gathered, since he referred to what he was doing as a mandate from his training officer. I wonder if his TO is an anti? hmmm.
Confiding in a friend this experience,the underlined portion above was pointed out to me by my buddy and he said that is why he goes "glovebox" when in the car so he doesn't get any fuss or disarmed unnecessarily. So, I get to keep my gun inches away in a glove box and he never is the wiser or I can tell him and get disarmed, which is to me a dangerous thing (unfamiliarity with the gun such as examples that have been mentioned here in this thread)
Most of the police officers used to phrase myself and other CWP holders, one of the "good guys". Sad that I don't feel like one anymore. So now, the officer doesn't know, I keep my gun, and he keeps his warm fuzzy fellings and ignorance of my firearm.
SC law:
K) A permit holder must have his permit identification card in his possession whenever he carries a concealable weapon. When carrying a concealable weapon pursuant to Article 4 of Chapter 31 of Title 23, a permit holder must inform a law enforcement officer of the fact that he is a permit holder and present the permit identification card when an officer (1) identifies himself as a law enforcement officer and (2) requests identification or a driver’s license from a permit holder.
CWP status not tied with license or plates here in SC
I have always identified myself and had the police officers visibly relax and even tend to treat me better than your average Joe. One exception, as I have posted in a prior thread, I was stopped for a seatbelt violation (it's a primary stopping offense here in SC now- nevermind individual freedoms, personal choice, and such) anyway, I identify as usual and have all necessary paperwork handy. I literally am shocked, like I was slapped in the face, that the officer asks me to step to the back of the car to be disarmed. I am carrying a P3AT, in the little zipper sleeve thingy it comes with, in my right front pocket and I am not real comfortable with the guy fishing around in there. As I stated in the post regarding this earlier, I felt somehow my status as a "good guy" was cheapened. I felt less than enthused to identify myself ever again whether it be the embarrassment of having to be handled like a danger, or had my pockets dug in like a dealer, or the fact he could've touched off a round in my leg or foot. To me the firearm was secure and safe. Anytime it comes out, I see as dangerous. Anyway to NOT flame the officer or be perceived as anti-leo the guy was extremely nice about it and made a concession to disarm me in the crook of my door to help hide the disarmament from the abundant traffic of most of my neighbors getting off of work. Still, it looked like a drug dealer getting searched. He was very young and very new,I gathered, since he referred to what he was doing as a mandate from his training officer. I wonder if his TO is an anti? hmmm.
Confiding in a friend this experience,the underlined portion above was pointed out to me by my buddy and he said that is why he goes "glovebox" when in the car so he doesn't get any fuss or disarmed unnecessarily. So, I get to keep my gun inches away in a glove box and he never is the wiser or I can tell him and get disarmed, which is to me a dangerous thing (unfamiliarity with the gun such as examples that have been mentioned here in this thread)
Most of the police officers used to phrase myself and other CWP holders, one of the "good guys". Sad that I don't feel like one anymore. So now, the officer doesn't know, I keep my gun, and he keeps his warm fuzzy fellings and ignorance of my firearm.
Templar223
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Why all the handwringing?
Over a relative non-issue?
If notification isn't required, it's not required. Use your best judgment when the times comes and then get on with life.
I'm not worried about it and I don't worry my students about it.
John
Over a relative non-issue?
If notification isn't required, it's not required. Use your best judgment when the times comes and then get on with life.
I'm not worried about it and I don't worry my students about it.
John
cassandrasdaddy
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why handwringing? grandpa used to say if grandma didn't have anything to worry about she would buy a pair of tight shoes so she could worry about that
Zundfolge
Member
Why are you questioning one of the main reasons for the existence of internet forums?
Infidel Cowboy
Member
In FL, I'm not required to notify but will. I'd rather be up front about it and while I may be driving too fast, there is nothing illegal about my being armed. The permit gets handed to the officer along with the requested docs. I seem to recall Massad saying not to use the word "gun" since the word alone can set off flags. With both hands on the wheel:
"Officer, here are the documents you requested and my permit to carry concealed. It is a USP in condition 1 behind my right hip. I'd be happy to clear it by dropping the mag and racking the slide if you want. How would you like me to proceed?"
This lets him know I am armed, how to clear the weapon, and puts him clearly in charge - "how would you like me to proceed?"
My education in psychology tells me this should work, and Mas tells me the rest.
Off Topic: TexasRifleman, you've got 110 on the speedo and at least one (two
) hand(s) on the camera. No wonder you're concerned about how to handle being pulled over
I know - you took that pic while the car was on the dyno...
IC
"Officer, here are the documents you requested and my permit to carry concealed. It is a USP in condition 1 behind my right hip. I'd be happy to clear it by dropping the mag and racking the slide if you want. How would you like me to proceed?"
This lets him know I am armed, how to clear the weapon, and puts him clearly in charge - "how would you like me to proceed?"
My education in psychology tells me this should work, and Mas tells me the rest.
Off Topic: TexasRifleman, you've got 110 on the speedo and at least one (two
) hand(s) on the camera. No wonder you're concerned about how to handle being pulled over I know - you took that pic while the car was on the dyno...IC
Huh? And I'd be happy to throw my keys out the window so you know I won't try to run over you. And I'd be happy to handcuff my hands to the steering wheel so you know I won't hit you. And I'd be happy to knock my teeth out so you know I won't bite you.
I mean come on now. In some states you have to tell.. So tell him you are armed. In some states you don't have to tell so you have a choice. Ok, decide; it's your choice. But get real. Just tell him you have a permit and you are carrying. If he wants you to clear the weapon, he'll absolutely let you know that without you offering to do a thing. And if I were a cop and you put your hand on your weapon to clear it, you'd either be leaving faceprints in the pavement or, if I had any doubt I could get you face down on the pavement, you might be dead.
Treo
member
I said I wasn't going to participate in this thread due to the pissing contests going on, but I can't let this pass.
I'm curious how the cops react to that. If I got that much information thrown at me when all I asked for was DL registration & POI, I think my head would melt.
If ( that's the key word) I'm asked I don't say a word I just hand the cop my CHP. You know what? They figure it out.
I'm curious how the cops react to that. If I got that much information thrown at me when all I asked for was DL registration & POI, I think my head would melt.
If ( that's the key word) I'm asked I don't say a word I just hand the cop my CHP. You know what? They figure it out.
Infidel Cowboy
Member
I realize it sounds a bit crazy and perhaps I should have clarified. I agree with you completely that reaching for the pistol is a very bad idea. Both my hands are on the wheel and I'm not moving until the officer tells me to. My intention is not to so much as lay a finger on my USP.
I want to go about my business. The officer wants to control the situation. This encounter is a negotiation like any other. I've found that folks are generally more apt to give me what I want if they get a bit of what they want. I give up nothing by informing the officer, and in the process give him everything he wants. I have told him that there is a weapon present and its location and condition. I've also ensured that the officer does not make a fool of himself or endanger me by not knowing how to clear it. I've told him exactly what must be done to make the weapon safe while not "telling him how," thereby endangering his position of authority and control. The officer remains in charge. If he decides to take control of my weapon, he can do so in a knowledgable fashion - or at least appear to.
His adrenaline is already up a bit for having to get it up to 90 to catch up with me doing 80. There are about a million variations on a theme that involve his discovery of my pistol - from there I figure it about 50 / 50 that I end up in cuffs at the back of the car while he figures stuff out. Once cuffed & there, I'm not able to find cover without attracting fire if he accidentally discharges a pistol he's not familiar with. By my question, all I have to worry about now is him not pointing it at me while he clears it.
I want him absolutely certain that he controls the situation. If he feels like he has to assert that, at worst my life is in danger - at best my evening. We've all heard the tales of firearms and pissing contests. I'd just as soon not get into one no matter what's involved.
I make no claims at expertise, and there is more wisdom on this board than I could ever pretend to absorb. This is just what I think to be one method of dealing with a tense situation.
I'm very interested in how the cops react to this as well. Perhaps it's time ro rethink things...
IC
I want to go about my business. The officer wants to control the situation. This encounter is a negotiation like any other. I've found that folks are generally more apt to give me what I want if they get a bit of what they want. I give up nothing by informing the officer, and in the process give him everything he wants. I have told him that there is a weapon present and its location and condition. I've also ensured that the officer does not make a fool of himself or endanger me by not knowing how to clear it. I've told him exactly what must be done to make the weapon safe while not "telling him how," thereby endangering his position of authority and control. The officer remains in charge. If he decides to take control of my weapon, he can do so in a knowledgable fashion - or at least appear to.
His adrenaline is already up a bit for having to get it up to 90 to catch up with me doing 80. There are about a million variations on a theme that involve his discovery of my pistol - from there I figure it about 50 / 50 that I end up in cuffs at the back of the car while he figures stuff out. Once cuffed & there, I'm not able to find cover without attracting fire if he accidentally discharges a pistol he's not familiar with. By my question, all I have to worry about now is him not pointing it at me while he clears it.
I want him absolutely certain that he controls the situation. If he feels like he has to assert that, at worst my life is in danger - at best my evening. We've all heard the tales of firearms and pissing contests. I'd just as soon not get into one no matter what's involved.
I make no claims at expertise, and there is more wisdom on this board than I could ever pretend to absorb. This is just what I think to be one method of dealing with a tense situation.
I'm very interested in how the cops react to this as well. Perhaps it's time ro rethink things...
IC
Monkeybear
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The way it was explained to me by my CHL instructor:
If a LEO ask for your ID give them your ID and CHL at the same time. He/she is running your ID to make sure that don't have warrants. By giving said LEO your CHL you are showing him/her that you do not have a history of bad judgement, violent behavior and/or going crazy. You are also showing the LEO that you are responsible, pay your taxes and he/she no longer has to wonder if you have a gun hidden in the car, always a valid fear for LEO on routine traffic stops as another poster mentioned.
If a LEO dose not ask for your ID do not volunteer that you are concealed. They are not that interested in you and you shouldn't draw further attention to yourself if you can help it.
As to why its safer....well cops hate surprises and they especially hate being surprised by guns. I don't want to have to deal with an agitated, surprised edgy armed man/woman if I don't have too. Anything I can do to make them more comfortable is in my best interest.
I have never been pulled over by the police and have never been ticketed, I'm only 25 though. I did however have an incident where a man backed out of a parking space into my car. I happened to be there when it happened and so I asked for his insurance papers and volunteered my own. He because very aggressive. He kept threatening me and was yelling, literally yelling, for almost half an hour that I "should leave" and that I "needed to get out of there". Anyway long story short the police came, who the parking lot guard had called. He asked for my DL and I gave him both my DL and CHL. He gave me my CHL right back and never a word was said about my handgun despite the other very aggressive driver.
If a LEO ask for your ID give them your ID and CHL at the same time. He/she is running your ID to make sure that don't have warrants. By giving said LEO your CHL you are showing him/her that you do not have a history of bad judgement, violent behavior and/or going crazy. You are also showing the LEO that you are responsible, pay your taxes and he/she no longer has to wonder if you have a gun hidden in the car, always a valid fear for LEO on routine traffic stops as another poster mentioned.
If a LEO dose not ask for your ID do not volunteer that you are concealed. They are not that interested in you and you shouldn't draw further attention to yourself if you can help it.
As to why its safer....well cops hate surprises and they especially hate being surprised by guns. I don't want to have to deal with an agitated, surprised edgy armed man/woman if I don't have too. Anything I can do to make them more comfortable is in my best interest.
I have never been pulled over by the police and have never been ticketed, I'm only 25 though. I did however have an incident where a man backed out of a parking space into my car. I happened to be there when it happened and so I asked for his insurance papers and volunteered my own. He because very aggressive. He kept threatening me and was yelling, literally yelling, for almost half an hour that I "should leave" and that I "needed to get out of there". Anyway long story short the police came, who the parking lot guard had called. He asked for my DL and I gave him both my DL and CHL. He gave me my CHL right back and never a word was said about my handgun despite the other very aggressive driver.
Give only that which is legally required. Offer nothing. Know your state's laws on the subject.
The cop pulled me over for a reason. Deal with that reason, and be done with it. I was speeding? Fine. Write the ticket. I need a headlight? Fine. Write the ticket.
I don't want to chat.
I don't consent to any violation of my rights.
I expect you (cop) to do your job.
The cop pulled me over for a reason. Deal with that reason, and be done with it. I was speeding? Fine. Write the ticket. I need a headlight? Fine. Write the ticket.
I don't want to chat.
I don't consent to any violation of my rights.
I expect you (cop) to do your job.
I had a situation where I was pulled over for......driving in the left lane of a highway. It was a horrid, dastardly crime! anyway the cop approached my door and I rolled the window down and he says " I gave you ample opportunity to pull into the right lane! Why were you driving in the left lane?" I looked at him and said. "I don't know?!?" He looked at me dumbfounded for a period and left. I had a .45 in the front seat, holstered of course. My wife looked at me and busted out laughing. All I heard from the family for 2 weeks was I don't know. 
It was a horrid, dastardly crime! anyway the cop approached my door and I rolled the window down and he says " I gave you ample opportunity to pull into the right lane! Why were you driving in the left lane?" I looked at him and said. "I don't know?!?" He looked at me dumbfounded for a period and left. I had a .45 in the front seat, holstered of course. My wife looked at me and busted out laughing. All I heard from the family for 2 weeks was I don't know. For those who have been surprised by being treated like a criminal when announcing they have a firearm. Don't be surprised to see this happen more often because this, as I understand it, is part of a more comprehensive training program the LEOs are getting. The idea is that, good guy or bad guy, the LEO has to keep things as safe as possible to keep from becoming a statistic. From what I understand, it has helped. In my state, they will tell you it is for your own safety, but we all know it is also for theirs.
I don't announce because in my state, I don't have to. I am always polite and respectful anyway. I also don't volunteer anything to any police officer, only because if anything happened, the courts could tear you up using only one sentence out of context, even if you did nothing wrong.
Well, except for one time when the office asked me, "Had a couple of beers?" (it was obvious). I said, "Scotch". I wasn't carrying.
I don't announce because in my state, I don't have to. I am always polite and respectful anyway. I also don't volunteer anything to any police officer, only because if anything happened, the courts could tear you up using only one sentence out of context, even if you did nothing wrong.
Well, except for one time when the office asked me, "Had a couple of beers?" (it was obvious). I said, "Scotch". I wasn't carrying.
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