Unique vs 231 with LPM in 45 ACP?

[KB Hill]

I have LPMs, but not too many LPPs, so I did some workups with 231 (LPM vs LPP, 5.0gr 231, 230gr FMJRN). Found the results similar to what has been previously posted. With the magnum primers I got approximately 22fps (739fps-761fps) increase and corresponding increase in ES, SD and group size. I can get some Unique and was wondering if anyone had tried it, and found it to be a better powder choice with the magnum primers? I'm not a super shot, so group size is not that big of a deal, I just want that cartridge to "Be All It Can Be".

 

[PO2Hammer]

I'm surprised your 45 loads went downhill with a mag primer and W231, usually I get very consistent results with mag primers and W231 in 9mm and 357.

If W231 didn't fair well with the mag's, I wouldn't expect Unique to do any better.
Unique has always been a standard primer powder.

 

[KB Hill]

I'm surprised your 45 loads went downhill with a mag primer and W231, usually I get very consistent results with mag primers and W231 in 9mm and 357.

If W231 didn't fair well with the mag's, I wouldn't expect Unique to do any better.
Unique has always been a standard primer powder.

Tried it with 3 different powder loads of 231- 4.6, 4.8 and 5.0. Differences decreased as powder charges increased, but 5.0 was distinctly better from a cleanliness and accuracy standpoint. Not a huge diff at 5.0, and certainly usable, just wondering if it could be tweaked a little with Unique.
Good to know your experience with 9mm. If the opportunity to grab some SPMs arises, I'll grab them.

 

[IMtheNRA]

I suspect that your results will improve as long as you keep increasing the powder charge. My most accurate 230-FMJRN load, which is also squeaky clean, is at 6gr of 231, regardless of which primer I use.

 

[KB Hill]

I suspect that your results will improve as long as you keep increasing the powder charge. My most accurate 230-FMJRN load, which is also squeaky clean, is at 6gr of 231, regardless of which primer I use.

I was using both Hornady bullets and load data which lists a max load of 5.7gr/800fps. I hit 792 fps (avg) at 5.3gr and didn't take it any higher. I was running a slightly shorter oal. Definitely burned cleaner, but didn't get any gain in accuracy. Will likely keep working at the 5.0 gr level as it is a nice soft shooting load and accurate enough for me. This summer I loaded a bunch of Magnus 230s that liked 5.2gr @ 1.230.

 

[Charlie98]

My most accurate 230-FMJRN load, which is also squeaky clean, is at 6gr of 231, regardless of which primer I use.

That load also happens to be .7grn OVER MAX published data from Hodgdon... so be careful throwing that kind of data out there.

 

[murf]

I was using both Hornady bullets and load data which lists a max load of 5.7gr/800fps.

that's what the hornady book says. the speer #14 says 6.2 grain max for a 230 grain fmjrn, 5.6 grains for a 230 grain gold dot. i think kb has the upper limit figured out here. it depends on the bullet type.

i think unique is too slow for your purpose. if you want to change powders, i would go a bit faster with bullseye, or a similarly fast powder. my standard 45acp load is 5.0 grains of bullseye under a 230 grain lead round nose bullet.

luck,

murf

 

[1MoreFord]

Considering how filthy Unique is at .38Spl and .45Acp pressures the LPM's might offer an advantage.

I loaded .38Super IPSC major loads with SPP, SPPM, and SR primers interchangeably once upon a time so IME standard to magnum formulation differences are small. YMMV

 

[KB Hill]

that's what the hornady book says. the speer #14 says 6.2 grain max for a 230 grain fmjrn, 5.6 grains for a 230 grain gold dot. i think kb has the upper limit figured out here. it depends on the bullet type.

i think unique is too slow for your purpose. if you want to change powders, i would go a bit faster with bullseye, or a similarly fast powder. my standard 45acp load is 5.0 grains of bullseye under a 230 grain lead round nose bullet.

luck,

murf

Thanks. Differences in load manuals make it hard to see where you really are sometimes. This is especially true for bullet types/manufacturers not specifically listed. I'm relatively new to 45 loading and thought that the 230gr fmj usually maxed out around 830-850. Hornady made it easy as they list data for their bullet. I've got some Zero 230s and based on their ammo spec sheet, looks like they'll be on the higher end.
Started reloading again after a 25 year break and didn't have a chronograph back in the 90's. From the data labels in the ammo boxes and chrono results of some of that 25 year old ammo, I made some pretty hot 9mm loads back then. I now consider a chronograph essential equipment.

 

[IMtheNRA]

That load also happens to be .7grn OVER MAX published data from Hodgdon... so be careful throwing that kind of data out there.

Over for some, under for others... See Speer #13.

 

[Charlie98]

Over for some, under for others... See Speer #13.

Well... I guess that makes it OK, then.

 

[murf]

depends on the bullet shape and material. it didn't used to, just pick a reloading book and get to loading those cup and core bullets. times have changed.

murf

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

You didn't say whose primers you were using. My best LPM load is 7.0gr. HS6 under a Speer 230gr. TMJ-RN with Federal LPM. I use that in my old Remington-Rand service pistol and it is a mild, reliable, consistent load. I don't use words like "accurate" around that old war-horse but it never misses the paper.

From my Springfield Ultra-Carry, it is a good range load, reasonably accurate, and very reliable. I worked up a LPM load using Winchester primers for both of those guns a couple of years ago because they both seemed to prefer a harder primer. The Federal LPM just worked better than the CCI, Remington or Winchester in either LPS or LPM so I switched and it has been Golden. I didn't keep or can't find any chronograph data for that load. I use it at an indoor range where setting up the chrony is not allowed (can't go past the shooting line or behind the shields) and I evidently have lost or didn't keep my notes from the original testing. Note that it is less than the 7.8gr. minimum starting load recommended by Speer for that bullet with a Federal 100 primer and HS6; consider it a bare-minimum starting load known to function in both older hardware and shorter barrels with mild report and good 50-foot accuracy.

 

[Charlie98]

I can get some Unique and was wondering if anyone had tried it, and found it to be a better powder choice with the magnum primers?

I've used Unique in the .45ACP for as long as I've been loading it, it works very well. As someone mentioned, it isn't the cleanest powder you can use in the .45, but it works very well. I've been loading 6.5grn Unique under any 230grn bullet for over 30 years; that is a book max load, please work up to it. As an aside, I've substituted Winchester LP primers... which are 'standard or Magnum' as far as Winchester is concerned, and I've never seen any adverse affects. It's my opinion they are not a full Magnum primer, like a CCI 350 would be; if I were to have to use those, I would reduce and work the load back up.

Because W231 is a pretty fast powder, I would not arbitrarily switch to a Magnum primer without reducing and working back up, particularly if you were near max published (or over...) I would say the same thing about any fast powder, like TiteGroup and some of the others.

 

[KB Hill]

You didn't say whose primers you were using. My best LPM load is 7.0gr. HS6 under a Speer 230gr. TMJ-RN with Federal LPM. I use that in my old Remington-Rand service pistol and it is a mild, reliable, consistent load. I don't use words like "accurate" around that old war-horse but it never misses the paper.

From my Springfield Ultra-Carry, it is a good range load, reasonably accurate, and very reliable. I worked up a LPM load using Winchester primers for both of those guns a couple of years ago because they both seemed to prefer a harder primer. The Federal LPM just worked better than the CCI, Remington or Winchester in either LPS or LPM so I switched and it has been Golden. I didn't keep or can't find any chronograph data for that load. I use it at an indoor range where setting up the chrony is not allowed (can't go past the shooting line or behind the shields) and I evidently have lost or didn't keep my notes from the original testing. Note that it is less than the 7.8gr. minimum starting load recommended by Speer for that bullet with a Federal 100 primer and HS6; consider it a bare-minimum starting load known to function in both older hardware and shorter barrels with mild report and good 50-foot accuracy.

I'm with you on the accuracy word. For me it is relative group size which seems to decrease as available light increases. My eyes are getting so they really like sunny days. I'm actually thinking about a red dot.
For the primers I used CCI 350 LPMs and Remmington 2 1/2s for reg LPP. When I see some Federals, I'll give them a try. I'm shooting an SA Mil-Spec Defender. It hasn't digested anything other than 230 ball so far, but has done so without a hick-up. I have no idea why I waited so long to get a 1911.

 

[Charlie98]

Actually, if you are looking for accuracy and a clean burn... you should try WST. The velocity won't be on par with something like Unique, but WST has been the accuracy winner across about 6 different powders.

 

[KB Hill]

I've used Unique in the .45ACP for as long as I've been loading it, it works very well. As someone mentioned, it isn't the cleanest powder you can use in the .45, but it works very well. I've been loading 6.5grn Unique under any 230grn bullet for over 30 years; that is a book max load, please work up to it. As an aside, I've substituted Winchester LP primers... which are 'standard or Magnum' as far as Winchester is concerned, and I've never seen any adverse affects. It's my opinion they are not a full Magnum primer, like a CCI 350 would be; if I were to have to use those, I would reduce and work the load back up.

Because W231 is a pretty fast powder, I would not arbitrarily switch to a Magnum primer without reducing and working back up, particularly if you were near max published (or over...) I would say the same thing about any fast powder, like TiteGroup and some of the others.

Thanks, I am using 350s and started low (4.6 gr 231). It actually shot quite well, but was incredibly dirty. I think I'll give the unique a try and see what I can work up. I'm retired now, so I certainly have the time as long as the weather cooperates (snowed yesterday). I do use Unique in my 40 with a 175gr LSWC. Not too dirty and really shoots great.

On another note, I'm new to the forum and can't tell you how much I appreciate the wealth of knowledge here, and the willingness of members to share that knowledge and experience. Thanks to all.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Actually, if you are looking for accuracy and a clean burn... you should try WST. The velocity won't be on par with something like Unique, but WST has been the accuracy winner across about 6 different powders.

---
Agreed on WST, especially since it seems to be easier to find right now. It is still available at "reasonable," pre-COVID prices online in larger quantities. I just checked a couple of places and it's available.

WST is another "shotgun powder" that works well in some handgun loads. Start low, work up to best feel, watch for signs of pressure and incomplete ignition, etc. etc. and wash your hands before sitting down at the dinner table...

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I'm with you on the accuracy word. For me it is relative group size which seems to decrease as available light increases. My eyes are getting so they really like sunny days. I'm actually thinking about a red dot.
For the primers I used CCI 350 LPMs and Remmington 2 1/2s for reg LPP. When I see some Federals, I'll give them a try. I'm shooting an SA Mil-Spec Defender. It hasn't digested anything other than 230 ball so far, but has done so without a hick-up. I have no idea why I waited so long to get a 1911.

---
If I can see the rear sight and target at the same time, I'm doing good.

Unique, in my experience, is the closest thing you'll find to a universal powder. If it is really dirty in your gun, it may be incomplete ignition; check the neck tension on your reloads. You may need to tighten the taper crimp or bell the case mouths less in the expansion die. A magnum primer will force the bullet into motion more quickly because it produces a higher gas volume in a shorter time period. Allan Jones of CCI wrote an article for Shooting Times you might want to read. https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/100079

 

[KB Hill]

GeoDude- good read on primers. Have seen parts quoted in other places, but nice to see the whole thing.
Charlie98 - I'll add WST to the list...Damn, I'm gonna need lots more primers!

 

[Charlie98]

Just remember... with any autoloading cartridge, a taper crimp is usually called for... because the cartridge headspaces on the case mouth, so a heavy crimp may actually cause more problems that it fixes, so to speak. Unique burns dirty with very light loads, it needs some load density, and in my experience, some bullet weight to push... which is why it's my fav for 230's. I have started to use WST and W244 for my 200grn .45ACP loads in lieu of Unique. The right powder for the right job.

Start low, work up to best feel, watch for signs of pressure and incomplete ignition, etc. etc. and wash your hands before sitting down at the dinner table...

...your mileage may vary, need not be present to win, no warranty expressed or implied.

 

[Hanshi]

FWIW: Decades of reloading the .45 acp was a great learning experience. Virtually the only powder I use was either Bullseye or Unique. Having access to a chronograph made load comparisons verifiable but sometimes puzzling. In general, primer choice made little difference but case brand sometimes did. Bullets were as follows: Speer swaged 230 grn. lead, various swaged 200 grain swc, cast 200, 185 and 195 grain swc & wc and WW 185 fmj match bullets. With the 200 grain swc 4.5 grains of Bullseye gave right at 800 fps in a Gold Cup, a customized Gov. model and an S&W 1955 M25 and spectacular accuracy. Only 15 fps separated the GC and the M25. With 6.0 grains of Unique velocities easily made 830 fps.

The 230 grn. LRN and 5.5 grains of Unique was accurate and reached around 765 fps and was a favorite in the GC. This bullet's records with Bullseye as the propellant are too incomplete to confidently post.

Now for the hardcast 185/195 grn. 4.0 grains of BE speeds ranged from 750 fps for the 195 and 775 fps with the 185 grn. FMJ 185 grn. WW match bullets were moving at 775 fps (4.0 grn BE) and 850 fps (6.5 grn Unique). A test with 7.0 grns of Unique & 185 WW match showed its merit with 950 fps.

Other powders, PB & Red Dot, were tested but too few rounds were fired for results to be statistically significant. Maybe someone can make use of this information.