Upgrading a DPMS AR-15

[henschman]

our best bet, if you want a 100% reliable AR, is to sell the DPMS you have or keep it as a spare and buy a better rifle. You'll spend more upgrading the rifle (and still only have half of a top shelf rifle) than you would if you just sold it outright and bought a new rifle from Bravo Company for $1000 or so.

Higher end AR15s undergo numerous additional quailty control measures to ensure that they will function reliably in conditions that choke lesser rifles.

Examples of extra measures taken on top tier rifles:

- chrome lined bore and chamber, to aid feeding and ejecting and reduce wear - the .223 casing walls are almost parallel, making it a picky feeder compared to cartridges with steeper angled walls like the 7.62x39mm, making the slickness of the chamber more of a concern
- High Pressure/Magnetic Particle Inspected bolt and barrels, they fire the rifle with an overcharged round, so that if it is going to blow up, it will do it at the factory
- staked gas key, so that the gas key won't work itself loose and seize the action up
- staked castle nut, so that your stock doesn't work itself loose
- barrel that is parkerized underneath the front sight block

All of those things are in the upper, except for the stock castle nut, which is easy to stake at home with a hammer and punch if yours didn't come that way from the factory. That's why I say it isn't necessary to buy a whole new $1000 rifle from a mil spec mfg... just swap out the upper, it's a lot cheaper. A PSA complete upper will have all the features you mentioned plus the benefit of a mid-length gas system, and will cost under $500: http://palmettostatearmory.com/inde...ength-pencil-profile-cl-mp-premium-upper.html

Plus the upper isn't considered a firearm, so it ships right to your door, and you don't have to go through an FFL, fill out paperwork, or pay the excise tax.

You should be able to sell that DPMS light profile upper for a decent price... I'd think somebody would give you at least $300 for it. Or just keep it and piece together another lower, and you'll have a whole backup rifle! You can save serious money by just buying uppers, and piecing together your own lowers. It's really not hard, and you learn some good stuff about the workings of your rifle in the process.

 

[Cornhusker77]

Where did you find a complete upper? All of the ones that I see do not include the BCG or the charging handle.



BCG: Bolt Carrier Group

BCM: Bravo Company Manufacturing

Thanks, I knew it was something simple but it just wouldn't fall into place for me

 

[Cosmoline]

To paraphrase Duke Ellington, if it works good, it is good. Adding a bunch of new parts to your existing carbine will probably create more problems than it solves. So I agree that if you're determined to ditch a perfectly good carbine, swapping uppers is a better idea.

And I'd add if it works for you, it works. So someone's opinion about what makes for a better ergonomic or tactical AR has to be measured against what works for you. For example I was told the BAD lever was a great idea. I never got used to it, and it jammed up my Colt. So off it went, and I'm perfectly happy with the factory release. Yes it probably delays my reloading by a second but I'm slow anyway. If you're finding the standard furniture features work for you, there's not much need to change them.

Plus you have to remember that the AR carbine is not intended to be a siege weapon. If you have the lightweight Panther carbine, it's ideal for toting and has been kept nice and light. I've seen some very fancy AR's guys have tricked out with the latest parts that now weigh pounds more than they ought to. So instead of a handy ergonomic carbine you have a heavy thing that will carry like a brick and jab you every chance it gets.

 

[Captains1911]

Adding a bunch of new parts to your existing carbine will probably create more problems than it solves.

I've seen some very fancy AR's guys have tricked out with the latest parts that now weigh pounds more than they ought to. So instead of a handy ergonomic carbine you have a heavy thing that will carry like a brick and jab you every chance it gets.

Swapping a factory DPMS BGC for a higher quality one will not create any problems, to say otherwise is crap. It will hardly make it heavier either (the only difference being the ounce or so more of the auto bolt carrier).

 

[madcratebuilder]

Ignore those who says "parts is parts", it just isn't true. Something that says "mil-spec" may fit in any rifle, but it won't be held to the same standards of production materials and quality control.

You mean just the opposite don't you?

"mil-spec" means the part is produced meeting specified material and procedure.

Swapping a factory DPMS BGC for a higher quality one will not create any problems, to say otherwise is crap. It will hardly make it heavier either (the only difference being the ounce or so more of the auto bolt carrier).

The FA BC is 11 grams heavier than a SA BC. There are several variations of BC's around.

 

[Captains1911]

You mean just the opposite don't you?

"mil-spec" means the part is produced meeting specified material and procedure.





The FA BC is 11 grams heavier than a SA BC. There are several variations of BC's around.

So less than an ounce, like I said....negligible

 

[Cosmoline]

Swapping a factory DPMS BGC for a higher quality one will not create any problems, to say otherwise is crap.

Well it won't.. unless it does. Until you do it on a particular upper you really can't know if there will be problems. If indeed the DPMS upper is substandard with different gauges used, then throwing in a mil spec BCG may create problems where there were none before.

If his carbine is working good, then it's working good.

 

[Captains1911]

If his carbine is working good, then it's working good.

Until it stops working good...

For some reason preventative maintenance is a hard concept for some people to grasp when it comes to firearms. Do you wait until the brakes on your car stop working before you replace them?

 

[kwelz]

So less than an ounce, like I said....negligible

Negligible to you maybe. But not the function of the gun.

 

[Captains1911]

Negligible to you maybe. But not the function of the gun.

I'm not debating the functional differences of the varieties of bolt carriers. You are taking my words out of context, go back and read what my comment was in reference to. I was responding to the post suggesting upgrades turn a once light-weight carbine into a "brick."

 

[WinThePennant]

I've never heard of a full auto BCG causing problems when replacing a semi auto BCG. I suppose it could, but it wouldn't be the fault of the BCG.

 

[Cosmoline]

Until it stops working good.

Well that's true of every firearm. Is there some specific danger here of the DPMS BCG just exploding? If it works fine, why mess with it? By changing the key moving part you introduce a whole new set of variables that can lead to extraction, feeding and other problems. Why do it just because some other person supposedly had problems with some other rifle?

 

[back40]

most people that upgrade currently working parts do so becuase there are better parts out there that are held to a higher standard of manufacturing, testing, and qc. if a gun works now with a substandard bcg, great, but what happens when it goes down during a less than desirable situation?

it's kind-of like buying a truck and replacing the tires immediately. sure the tires from the factory could last 50k miles, but if you use your truck hard, you may end up with a flat or worse, two, in the middle of the desert where there isn't a tire shop around the corner. this is the quivalent to a shtf scenario where a dpms bcg geos belly up, and suddenly a replacement can't be found. hypothetical #2 is that flat happens at high speed and causes you to lose control of your truck and crash. now you've risked serious bodily harm or even death, by driving on cheap tires simply because "why fix it if it ain't broke". same goes if you ever need that rifle to defend yourself. you could be risking serious bodliy harm or death.

i'm not saying the op needs to go out and buy a new rifle or even swap out the bcg for a bcm. i'm just explaining why people do this and how it's considered preventative maintenance. and why i replaced the factory tires on my truck just after i bought it new for a set that i knew were more up to the task.

things don't always break at opportune times, so why not try and lessen the chance that they will break in the first place. stacking the odds in your favor is a good idea in my book.

 

[powder]

If I were to get and install a BCM BCG and maybe a charging handle, will my reliability be likely improved significantly to be comparable to a higher-grade AR-15-type weapon? If not, what else should I replace or at least get spares of? Would I need to replace the whole BCG or perhaps just certain parts of it?

Nope, if your rifle runs good, you are good to go for a while-probably another 3000-5000 rounds. (Don't let these guys sell you on brand name BS.)

Your best investment now is time spent learning to taking it completely apart, clean it up good, lube it. Shoot it. Have fun. Look for some rifle training courses near you, is a good investment too.

 

[Captains1911]

Nope, if your rifle runs good, you are good to go for a while-probably another 3000-5000 rounds. (Don't let these guys sell you on brand name BS.)

Your best investment now is time spent learning to taking it completely apart, clean it up good, lube it. Shoot it. Have fun. Look for some rifle training courses near you, is a good investment too.

You probably think your $10 chinese made knives are just as good as Benchmades and other quality knives of the like because out of the box they look shiny and have decent sharpnees.

I'd really like to know what supports your constant claims that quality manufacturers rifles and parts with proven reputations and track records are no better than lesser quality ones with less than stellar reputations.

Also, where did you possibly come up with your estimated round count for expected reliability of existing parts? You have no idea how many rounds the OP's rifle already has through it, nor the firing schedule of such rounds.

You mention training classes..that's good. Have you personally taken any, or know of any who have or any instructors? If so, what type of firing schedule was implemented in the classes? How many rounds and at what rate? Were there any malfunctions and/or breakages?

In thread after thread you continue to make outlandish claims with no supporting evidence. The only thing that's BS here is your knowledge and credibility of the topic at hand, you've proven it time and again.

 

[meanmrmustard]

^^^ Folks can agree to disagree. Credibility being proven is pointless without a face to put with a name, so why bring it up? For all anyone knows, I've shot my AR on the Moon.

It ran flawlessly there, by the way...

 

[Cosmoline]

it's kind-of like buying a truck and replacing the tires immediately.

No it's more like buying a truck and replacing a major part of the engine immediately. One which, unlike tires, you won't even notice is there. The tire analogy would apply to furniture on the AR.

things don't always break at opportune times, so why not try and lessen the chance that they will break in the first place. stacking the odds in your favor is a good idea in my book.

Everything breaks eventually. And any BCG will eventually need repair/replacement. But even if you swap out a perfectly good DPMS bolt, the mil spec one you replace it with will ALSO need to be repaired and replaced eventually. And it can ALSO break down or have problems. What we're really talking about here is whether to pay the extra chunk of change to make a minor change in the already small percentage of a breakdown. Why not just have a spare one around once you've put a lot of rounds through your existing one? Why toss a perfectly good, functional and working part?

 

[back40]

i would argue that tires on a vehicle have more impact on that vehicles ability to oeprate and in a safe manner than does furniture on an ar. we can agree that my anaolgy is somewhere in between.

i'd rather have a qulaity part, that's been properly manufactured and tested, in a weapon that will be used to defend myself or my family. ymmv. plain as that.

 

[SpentCasing]

I've shot my AR on the Moon.

It ran flawlessly there, by the way...

what was the recoil like?

Ive always wondered this....

 

[meanmrmustard]

what was the recoil like?

Ive always wondered this....

Nonexistent really, more of a gentle push. Muzzle blast was quite a sight, what with that starry backdrop. As for sound...let's just say earplugs are purely optional.

In space...no one can see you smile.

 

[tsudduth]

and the discussion spirals out of control

It never fails to amaze me how a perfectly innocent question by the OP can turn into a pi$$ing match between a couple of people. I am sure at this point the OP has abandon this thread and is wondering what in the hello has happened. There is the old saying that people convinced against their will will have the same opinion still. Although, I don't believe anyone has been convinced to change their mind.

I started reading this thread to see if there was any good info on a DPMS ar, since i have recently purchased one. What I have learned is.................???????..........

 

[Captains1911]

It never fails to amaze me how a perfectly innocent question by the OP can turn into a pi$$ing match between a couple of people. I am sure at this point the OP has abandon this thread and is wondering what in the hello has happened. There is the old saying that people convinced against their will will have the same opinion still. Although, I don't believe anyone has been convinced to change their mind.

I started reading this thread to see if there was any good info on a DPMS ar, since i have recently purchased one. What I have learned is.................???????..........

Irony?

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Have you taken any formal rifle training yet?

 

[Bear-girl]

OP's conclusions

If we had a complete database on every AR-15 ever made and what part failed on each weapon at what round-count and at what elapsed time since purchase, we could eventually extract the answers to my questions with certainty. However, we don’t have such a database, but what we do have is a lot of experience from a lot of people, and by combining all of that experience, we can begin to extract answers from this very large experience “database”. Therefore, the more responses we get to a question, then the bigger our “database” is and a better answer can be arrived at.

My original concern was relating to the apparent negative reliability reputation on this board regarding the DPMS AR-15. I didn’t want my DPMS AR-15 to go “click” at a time that I desperately need it to go “bang”. Although it is working fine now, the collective experience indicates that it may fail at some point in the not too distant future. I guess that can be said for any gun, but the high quality guns will not likely have that failure occur as soon as a lower quality gun. Therefore, my basic question was whether or not I can significantly improve the reliability performance of my DPMS AR-15 by swapping out a few key parts.

Thanks to the many comments that people have contributed to this thread, I think I have the answers:
• I can not match the reliability of a top-tier AR-15 by swapping out a few parts because there are too many parts that could contribute to a failure. Matching that reliability can be achieved by buying a top-tier AR-15.
• I can make a major improvement in reliability by swapping out a few key parts that are the cause of failure most of the time.
• There is validity in the “don’t fix what ain’t broke” approach for at least the near term, but the odds of a failure are probably higher than if I swap out some high-risk parts.
• Preventive maintenance and proper care will improve reliability.
• Having spare parts is a good idea. They won't help if the gun goes "click" at the wrong time, but, if you survive the "click" experience, you can rapidly return the weapon to "bang" status.
• Any changes in parts need to be tested with range time to ensure that they integrate well with the rest of the weapon.

Based on this then, my course of action is to do a cost/benefit analysis and pick an optimum point in that spectrum. Of course, one person’s optimum is not likely the optimum for another person, but we can all make our own decisions regarding our own optimum.

It was a major help to have so many responses, as that gave me a bigger “database” to draw from. I think everyone gave responses that were honest expressions of their experience; differences of opinion were to be expected due to us all having different experiences.

Thank you, everyone, for sharing your experience regarding my questions.

 

[powder]

Your personal attacks are really quite frivolous, yet display your lack of tact, but hold an abundance of assumptions. Cheap entertainment, sorry...

BMs are nice knives-I enjoy my ZTs and BlackJacks though. ( I have one Steigerwalt BM that came from Taiwan-do I need to get your approval to recommend/carry it?)

Yes, I am a perpetual student of the guns, and an Instructor. No, I do not answer to the likes of "Obey these brand names" salesmen.

Just one of the MANY tenets of Instruction is to instill confidence in the student and their firearm(s). I have a personal need to see students make progress and gain confidence in their firearms, which in turn almost always gets them to their own personal next level for shooting.( There is ZERO room to talk down to them about their rifle of choice, and how they NEED to make changes.)

Where I come from DPMS ARs are used for initial LE rifle training-the rifles work. Also, DPMS donates rifles to use at some of our local youth shoots-have you tried to coordinate rifle/ammo. contributions for a day that converts 150-200 kids to firearms enthusiasts? DPMS comes through with heroic proportions.

As many have pointed out-components can be swapped out as they wear or sooner. I PM'd the OP about some great choices for vendors. She seems to be an intelligent person who can research and make decent decisions, and I'd like to meet her at a range some day. Good times. Shoot, I think Notre Dame is almost on...later.

You probably think your $10 chinese made knives are just as good as Benchmades and other quality knives of the like because out of the box they look shiny and have decent sharpnees.

I'd really like to know what supports your constant claims that quality manufacturers rifles and parts with proven reputations and track records are no better than lesser quality ones with less than stellar reputations.