Upgrading a DPMS AR-15

[Captains1911]

Again, please cite these problems. I have not seen this. Again, let us kno that this is factory rifle, not a home build. Also, what brands? See, you are not answering the question. You are stating a perceived fact, but cannot substantiate it. Because of statements like yours, we have people wanting to go out and replace their good, working rifles with new ones for no good reason.

Nobody is collecting the data because it is not significant enough to warrant. It is a waste of time because the perceived issues are nonexistent. Another Internet rumor that the uninformed will buy hook, line, and sinker.

Do your own research, the reports are out there. Or make friends with some people that have the first hand experiences, instructors, or those of the liking. You are the one not providing any evidence. Just because you, whoever you may be and with whatever experience or lack thereof you may have, haven't seen it, doesn't make it real or unreal. Just don't get so upset when you do discover that your beloved DPMS that you may put 100 rounds thru a year may not be up to par with some of the other options out there....or perhaps you already know that and you like many others are just emotionally driven to argue and dismiss the truth in an effort to justify whatever it is you're trying to justify.

 

[holdencm9]

Regardless, it is probably the best evidence available, as it incorporates a very large sample size subjected to very high round counts and demanding firing schedules.

And subjected to their own personal bias.

ETA: I agree it is probably the closest we can come to "scientific" data, but only if you consider sociologists' studies "scientific" what with their biases, preconceived notions, small or non representative sample sizes, reliance on self-reporting, and lack of controls for the various extraneous factors that come into play. Until we can get every company to donate 100 carbines and run 10,000 rounds through each in a rigorous-yet-controlled environment, it is all we have though.

Everyone is subject to it, even if we really really really try hard not to be.

....or perhaps you already know that and you like many others are just emotionally driven to argue and dismiss the truth in an effort to justify whatever it is you're trying to justify.

Wait, which side of the debate are you talking about here? :banghead: I think both sides have their preconceived notions about their equipment. They both bring a little emotion to the debate. I mean, no one wants to be told their equipment is inferior, and no one wants to be told they over-paid unnecessarily. I hate to use more car analogies but if you bring home a shiny new BMW and are very proud of it, then your neighbor brings home a shiny new Infiniti and talks about how you got hosed and he has all the same features as you and paid $10,000 less, you'd probably get annoyed. Likewise if you bash your other neighbor's Nissan he might feel a little offended even though it serves his purpose, and he may really enjoy that car.

If I may pull some numbers out of the air, use of these parts may improve reliability from maybe 0.95 to 0.98 in light-duty/plinking usage (with that difference never being noticed), but it may also improve the reliability in hard-usage/defensive applications from 0.6 to 0.9, which is very significant.

Bear-girl it seems like you have a very firm grasp on the issue at hand and have been able to sift through all the comments in both directions to arrive at a workable solution. I like making up numbers too...I really think reliability with upgrading some of those parts would be more like 0.99 to 0.999. Which doesn't seem like much but it is the difference between a jam every 100 to a jam every 1000 and I think that most would gladly take that upgrade And you are right about the steel, but I wouldn't worry...unless you plan to fire full auto!

 

[RatDrall]

no one wants to be told their equipment is inferior, and no one wants to be told they over-paid unnecessarily.

If I go to the local gunshop, I could pay $900-1200 for an AR by DPMS, S&W, Armalite, or Bushmaster. The only top quality name they've ever heard of is Colt, and I would be assured by the knowledgable gunseller behind the counter that only Military and Police Officers can legally own a Colt, along with the usual nonsense about UN gunbans and such.

Or, I could just find a local FFL who charges $20 for a transfer, order a fully assembled lower of my choice for $200-300, then mail order to my house a complete upper from Bravo Company and have a top quality rifle for $1000 or less.

Then I wouldn't have an inferior rifle and also wouldn't have overpayed. Win win...

Edited to add:

OP, great summary at the end there, you've successfully sorted the nonsense from the real information and have more of an understanding than most ever will, instead of "Any rifle that isn't a Colt or Noveske will FAIL immediately" or "My $400 AR is as good as any rifle, even if they use better materials and manufacturing processes".

 

[holdencm9]

If I go to the local gunshop, I could pay $900-1200 for an AR by DPMS, S&W, Armalite, or Bushmaster. The only top quality name they've ever heard of is Colt, and I would be assured by the knowledgable gunseller behind the counter that only Military and Police Officers can legally own a Colt, along with the usual nonsense about UN gunbans and such.

I feel sorry for your situation! How does a place like that stay in business?

Or, I could just find a local FFL who charges $20 for a transfer, order a fully assembled lower of my choice for $200-300, then mail order to my house a complete upper from Bravo Company and have a top quality rifle for $1000 or less.

Then I wouldn't have an inferior rifle and also wouldn't have overpayed. Win win...

Sounds good. Actually that is pretty much what I did for my last AR, which was a complete lower with Magpul grip and stock for $300, then ordered a complete heavy barrel middy upper with magpul handguards for like $450. I ordered from PSA, so not quite the same reputation that Bravo Co. has established, but still all mil-spec components from a reputably builder for a great bargain....I just had to wait about 4 weeks for the upper to ship...

 

[powder]

I, like 357 there, are saying the DPMS is a good rifle.


We are part of a LARGE group of regular folks who are NOT pushing people to buy into the " You've gotta have the $1200-$2000 ARs " club.


Now, take a deep breath, and take a few steps back to see 2 very distinct groups of people:

a.) 1 group is advocating the shooter (OP) continue shooting their rifle, invest in more ammo. for shooting, invest in local training as well.( Non-Corp. specific).

b.) Group 2 is telling people their gear is sub-standard and they NEED to purchase rifle X, parts kit Y, or buy from online Corp. Z, in order to be able to trust their firearms.

So, what is going on here, in that picture? Group 1 is encouraging shooting. Group 2 is encouraging buying.

KISS

Do your own research, the reports are out there. Or make friends with some people that have the first hand experiences, instructors, or those of the liking. You are the one not providing any evidence.

 

[357SIG]

do your own research, the reports are out there. Or make friends with some people that have the first hand experiences, instructors, or those of the liking. You are the one not providing any evidence. Just because you, whoever you may be and with whatever experience or lack thereof you may have, haven't seen it, doesn't make it real or unreal. Just don't get so upset when you do discover that your beloved DPMS that you may put 100 rounds thru a year may not be up to par with some of the other options out there....or perhaps you already know that and you like many others are just emotionally driven to argue and dismiss the truth in an effort to justify whatever it is you're trying to justify.

Sounds like the response of a person grasping at straws. I don't own a DPMS rifle, but know about 5 shooters who do. They have no problems, and run thousands of rounds every few months through them. I have a Bushmaster from the ban era (that has been rebarrelled and restocked once the ban ended). It has seen at its worst about 3600 rounds in a week, and has not hiccuped in the 11 years I've had it. I have seen Colts lock up to the point that they go home in two pieces. In that example, I fired the rest of the Wolf rounds through mine with no problems. His jammed about 6 times per mag on it.

Again, the burden of proof is on the accuser. I really think you have nothing here, or you would show it. Sorry, but "do your own research" doesn't get you out of it, nor does a personal attack. Both are signs of someone backed into a corner, being forced to use distractions to mask the fact they can't continue the argument.

Nothing is wrong with peace-of-mind, but it is not necessary for everyone. Most people, as supported by ATF domestic production statistics, do not buy the mil-spec rifles. It may be as much as 5:1 non-spec to milspec. Apparently, most do not feel it necessary to pay $300-400 more for mlspec, just as most people will not waste $800 to buy new tires for their used car for no reason.

I have no emotional investment in this, only a 'want' to tell the truth to people that seek advice. Thousands of RRA, Bushmaster, Armalite, etc. rifles go through rigorous courses every year with no problems. Thousands of non-spec bolts survive year-after-year, as do thousands of 4140 and SS barrels. In this particular thread, we have a poster who has had no trouble with their DPMS rifle, but has caved to the irrational, emotional fear and paranoia behind milspec. Now, this poster is going to waste good money on "upgrades" that will likely make no difference. There goes a case of practice ammo that could be used to train with their equipment.

 

[Bear-girl]

You might find this older thread (link below) very illuminating. Do note Rob's last statement, "Obviously, if you have that "thousands of trouble free rounds" DPMS, you may feel perfectly comfortable with leaving it alone. At the end of the day, that's what it's all about, how secure YOU feel in the thought that you may use this carbine for self, family, or society defense."

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7376

Thank you, Quentin, for that link. It contains a lot of good information. Thanks also to those that had some kind words for my posts or provided specific suggestions for spare parts to have on hand or provided sources for parts/subassemblies. Everybody's comments in this thread were very interesting and helpful and provide a lot of food for thought, so thanks again to all that contributed to it.