USPSA Production/Carry Optics

[ATLDave]

USPSA has announced that they're going to try a new division - production optics - which will combine slide-riding red-dots with polymer-framed guns. The thinking is that a lot of shooter who are not currently competitive are moving towards those guns for carry or home defense, and that their interest in shooting matches may increase if they can run their tactical blaster.

Anybody here of a mind to give it a try?

 

[GJSchulze]

I would if there was some way to remove it for shooting IDPA. I don't want to buy another gun to do it. I suppose I could just buy a new slide, though.

 

[waktasz]

They make dovetail mounts that replace the rear sight and accept a red dot.

I tried it for fun a few years ago but ultimately decided I was better with irons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oP_mxh_9y8

 

[Hoser]

I look at it like I do Limited-10. Zero interest.

 

[ny32182]

I also don't see it as becoming very popular in terms of having staying power for people that want to compete hard long term. I'm sure there will be an initial rush of some existing Production shooters, and some new shooters that want to try it, but at the end of the day... Who really shoots it long term? People who don't mind replacing broken $400 optics every season already shoot open. I don't think there are a lot of people shooting $600 plastic guns that are going to want to do this. They are setting the weight limit to keep the more racy production guns out.

There are too many divisions the way it is... if it becomes permanent, I hope they drop L10 in order to not increase the overall division count.

 

[ATLDave]

I look at it like I do Limited-10. Zero interest.

You don't like L-10? Where else are D-class shooters supposed to get a division win in a club match?

 

[waktasz]

Revolver

 

[tarosean]

For the remainder of 2015, Carry Optics will be recognized at sanctioned Level 1 USPSA events.
http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-announcements-details.php?Carry-Optics-provisional-division-announced-214

Boy that has been the rumor for a couple years now. Its interesting, but I am not interested.

I would however, like to see the rule when they publish as it only seems like 3 guns are available in that stock configuration FN, Glock & MP. Well really 2 as I dont think I have ever seen a FN on the line.
While I have shot a G17 in production. I have zero interest in buying another one..

 

[tarosean]

You don't like L-10?

Obviously, everyone not competing in a "restricted" state???

 

[jmorris]

Reminds me of the the IPSC Modified division where they used a "box" thinking it would eliminate optics.

Always liked this solution. http://www.sviguns.com/1203.php

Last two photos in link are with slide riding DR. sight.

 

[ATLDave]

Obviously, everyone not competing in a "restricted" state???

Of course, for people in states with 10 round limits, ALL Limited is L-10.


3.3.1 In states where competitors are restricted by law to maximum magazine
capacity, that maximum capacity will be the maximum allowed for all
competitors in the contest. Any such limitations must be made known
to all competitors by the Match Director/Range Master before the start
of the match.

 

[taliv]

i think that's awesome news. i've been using an M&P9 core with RMR as my daily carry for a year and a half now. i think it's fantastic. i had to buy another one without the optic just to shoot some sniper matches.

will the apex trigger kit that makes the gun usable disqualify it from 'production'?

 

[ny32182]

Not all the other rules are the same as production, but if that one is, you are good to go as long as the stock trigger shoe is used.

 

[tarosean]

rules have been posted.

http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-announce...ix-D7-Carry-Optics---Provisional-Released-215

 

[taliv]

no, the stock trigger shoe is that wacky double-jointed thing. definitely had to get rid of that

 

[tarosean]

no, the stock trigger shoe is that wacky double-jointed thing. definitely had to get rid of that

Then ya got to run with the big boys. Where you will be at a major disadvantage.

 

[ATLDave]

^^ Yep. Basically, modifications (other than addition of the red-dot and slide milling to accomodate it) need to be internal only. Change sears or connectors or springs or whatever... fine. But nothing you can see externally.

 

[mgmorden]

Yeah - basically, it's Production, with a weight limit that excludes metal-framed guns, and with the stipulation that you can mill the slide for an optic.

That's pretty much it. No other external mods, no slide lightening, still 10-rounds in the gun, etc.

Not really "Production Optics" because the CZ's and Tanfoglio's that are dominating Production right now have been excluded, but it's pretty close.

FWIW, I don't really have any interest in this division. I'm just generally not a fan of red-dots, and if I ever get old enough that I can't shoot without them, I'll buy an open-gun.

 

[ATLDave]

Not really "Production Optics" because the CZ's and Tanfoglio's that are dominating Production right now have been excluded, but it's pretty close.

I found that pretty interesting. One of the appealing things to me about competition shooting is that the crucible effect reveals what works and what doesn't. Most of the difference in technique between what was taught as standard in the 1960's and 70's and what gets taught today came from the competitive shooting world. It doesn't matter which technique sounds better, or has more articulate or expert-credentialed supporters, or conforms to some "philosophy".... sooner or later, the better technique wins and catches on and then becomes near-standard. Technique differences that don't matter stay varied, but ones that matter become uniform.

And the same is true with equipment. The stuff that works best will, over time, get more popular and end up in the hands of the best shooters (who are competing with other folks at the far end of the bell curve and scrapping for every fraction of a percent improvement).

At the moment, it appears that DA/SA triggers in a steel-framed gun are just superior for fast, accurate shooting (compared to striker-fired guns or alloy-framed DA/SA). Doesn't mean they're better for hauling around all day, or for a police armorer to maintain, or for the military to buy in units of millions. But for peak performance, it seems that, for most highly-skilled shooters, the steel DA/SA is empirically better.

It's funny (don't know whether I mean "ha-ha" funny or "that's peculiar" funny) that USPSA is choosing to create essentially a protected space for the plastic guns that were thought only a few years ago to be "superior" to the old school CZ-type guns.

 

[tarosean]

It's funny (don't know whether I mean "ha-ha" funny or "that's peculiar" funny) that USPSA is choosing to create essentially a protected space for the plastic guns that were thought only a few years ago to be "superior" to the old school CZ-type guns.

From Phil Strader (USPSA Pres.)

As was pointed out publicly, "[I had] talked with S&W, Glock, and Springfield, and that they were not going to continue to support us at the same levels, largely due to the perception that their guns were no longer competitive in Production."

I have indeed talked with a number of representatives of these companies, and there are concerns that Production has become a division that cannot remain realistically competitive without a heavier pistol. As the trends have undoubtedly been favoring the heavy, metal framed pistols (some refer to them as Limited Minor pistols), their concerns are valid. With that said, some of these manufacturers have mentioned lessening their support of USPSA (not just at Nationals). Do I think that we would loose them completely? Probably not. Do I see a validity in their argument? Yes.

and Ill just leave this here....

 

[ATLDave]

LOL! Yeah, that Strader comment was what I was thinking of. The plastic-makers seem themselves to be convinced that, when it comes to pure performance, their guns are not quite good enough. I say that as someone who likes his S&W M&P and keeps it in the bedside stand as the home defense gun.

Love the pic, but there needs to be one with a unicorn, too. It will be hilarious if the CZ P-09 (with its polymer frame but still DA/SA trigger) ends up being the dominant gun in CO.

 

[mgmorden]

One thing thought that remains to be seen is whether its the DA/SA trigger or the extra weight of the steel frame that helps the most.

Personally I'd like to see Production approved striker gun with a steel frame to give a try, but that's just me. I kept shooting my M&P in Production regardless until I finally moved to an STI for Limited.

 

[ATLDave]

I shot my M&P in production for about 2 matches before I decided I wasn't good enough to eat minor scoring and have to juggle reloads so much! Been shooting limited for almost 2 years now, and finally got a gun with a magwell... man, reloads are way easier!!!

 

[tdneuf]

While I'm a demi-old timer, and life member of USPSA (L419), I remember the old classes, and rules, and baby we've (USPSA) come along way since then.
I've been watching many of the sites that are commenting and following this new division. My 2 cents.
It appears that on one hand the current Pres may be attempting to appease the plastic gun manufacturing folk with a custom division.
On another hand I'd agree with the thought that within a given division certain guns may at times appear to take over in the winning circles. Only time will truly tell, and someone will inevitably make a better mouse trap at some point in time. It's obvious, right now, the CZ design (considered one of the best for a really long time) has the upper hand in production class.
USPSA/IPSC and all the associated organizations and memberships thereof have pushed the manufactures for years to develop, and we've gotten to a point of stagnation over the recent years. Recently its the manufactures who have dictated what's coming out.
I think this (production optics) is part of a new phase of timeless change in development, which belongs to the independents and the shooter/developers of our industry and the shooting world in general.
With that in mind, limiting the optics to the slide (very expensive to replace), does the exact same thing as limiting the weight and effectively creating a custom class for certain manufactures. So it's kinda like a double whammy!
If USPSA were truly interested in expanding the optic division, they would allow it to include all production guns and external RAIL mounted optics as well. This would allow the shooter to only have to purchase one gun, which they could use in, production, production optic & IDPA. And ultimately it's a training platform to move up to Open class, if they wanted to afford it.
Personally, I'm currently an XDm .40, 4.5", I can switch out between the threaded bar-sto and comp (for open class) and/or use my stock barrel and also use my frame mounted STS - C-More optic. Pretty much go any direction in a matter of a few minutes.

 

[tarosean]

If USPSA were truly interested in expanding the optic division, they would allow it to include all production guns and external RAIL mounted optics as well.

Bingo.